"After all, we all know quite well that the vast majority of blue collar folk are watching NASCAR races, listening to Larry the Cable Guy records and voting against their own interests,"

Hmmmm....I wonder why I would take remarks about blue collar workers as condescending. Its funny that people always assume that if you work in a blue collar job that you are ignorant or undereducated. Come to Alabama.....its the folks with the masters degrees going bankrupt,losing their houses and standing in the unemployment lines.

It just comes across as elitism....because someone likes trucks, guns and knives, that they wear blue jeans to work and are dumb. However if you spend your days reading about cuben fiber, titanium and smart cars then you wear a shirt and tie to work and must be inherently intelegent.

After all it is the suits that have made this country into a service oriented economy, whcih is why it is failing. The next time you see a blue collar guy, thank him. For it is his willingness to work a labor intensive job that keeps this country goin.

Geez, Adam, chill out.

I've lived in three different trailers :) I have lots of scars on my hands from repairing cars, machine work, building boats and houses, repairing computers, office equipment and furniture for a living. I've dug ditches. I do have a technical degree, but not an undergrad degree. I have FOUR shop stewards in my family. My father is a journeyman machinist as well as a journeyman lineman. I love them all and appreciate the skills they taught me.

No one said a single word that was condescending to blue collar workers, just estimating the politics of bushcraft practitioners. No one said they were dumb, stupid, ignorant or even wrong, just ****generally***** politically conservative, blue collar, and not college degree holders. The last time I looked, that was still okay in a free country.

My ONLY falling out with bushcrafters is with leave no trace issues on PUBLIC land. The rest is just a $%^&* hobby!

>He's simply making a generalization based on perception, perhaps well informed and perhaps not. My own ill informed perception is that you'd probably find more white collar in both UL backpacking and bushcraft. After all, we all know quite well that the vast majority of blue collar folk are watching NASCAR races, listening to Larry the Cable Guy records and voting against their own interests, when would they have time to practice bushcraft?'

Ya' know, Doug, I often marvel at the way you state the truth so simply and directly and still provide a bit of satire at the same time, Swiftian style! It is certainly true that we white-collar types have the time and the inclination to reject the very capitalist structure that provides our bread and butter -- capitalism provides us the opportunity to reject capitalism and get us out into the woods. We also tend to oversimplify our perception of our blue-collar betters. They have more of a right to reject capitalism than we do because they are the victims of it and not the beneficiaries, the way we are. They may not just watch NASCAR races (as this very form and their participation in in suggests), but they do vote, for the most part, against their own self interests, sadly.

We are the Henry David Thoreau's of the world. We couldn't reject, occasionally, our civilization without the support it provides. As I often explain to my colleagues when they ask me, nonplussed, why I retreat into the woods, "I love people. I love them even more when I can get away from them once in a while." The same can be said of our capitalist economic structure.

One, two three
Pioneers are we
Fighting with the working class
Against the bourgeoisie (an old International Worker's of the World anthem)

Really wishing this discussion were in Chaff, ;-)

Please don't flame me, :-)
Stargazer

Edited by nerdboy52 on 09/13/2011 14:18:03 MDT.

I fail to see how the great majority of people on so called bushcraft sites can consider what they do "bushcraft"at all.
Bushcraft as I knew it was about traditional skills and craft. and by traditional I mean pre industrial. It could be stone age or 18 the century. I don't even bother going to those sites because they are very thin on actual bushcraft. So I think if you use people on those forums as examples it sets up a false dichotomy.
Real bush craft is not ant-materialist but it is about gathering and producing from the natural environment verse buying it in a store, or at least buying natural, traditional more eco friendly materials to use.
Lugging a nylon military pack into the woods and axing down trees to make shelter is has very,very little to do with bushcraft. They may as well lugg in a nylon military tent as well and save themselves the aggravation.

Ok, just from observing folks on the trail and those I have gone backpacking with, I would say that the majority of backpacking folks are from the lower middle class and below. Why? Because at its heart, to go "backpacking" you don't need much. They carry Kelty/Campmoor/REI low end backpacks and Helly Hanson rain slickers or Columbia that while "heavy" are very cheap.

Yes, you can spend multi thousands of dollars to go backpacking, but there is certainly no need to do so. First 15 years I went backpacking I didn't buy anything more than boots and garbage bags for rain gear! Sleeping "bag" $20, tarp $20 in today's dollars. Yea, the were "heavy", but it cost still more to GET TO the trail head than it ever did to go backpacking.

Like all the folks buying prepackaged food to go backpacking as if buying freeze dried spagetti has a lighter pack than anyone else. Actually, anyone who buys freezedried noodles of any type I seriously have to wonder if they have a screw loose as noodles are already a dried food stuff.

I would say like in "mountaineering" gear in UL gear there are two extremes. Those who will pay HUGE $$$ for a light weight piece and the majority who are in the know and buy cottage gear at a reasonable $$$ or low $$$. UL in and of its self is slightly more materialistic as said gear wears out faster, but other than this is no different than any other sector of life.

Living in the South and being a blue collar worker I get included in generaliztions very often. Usually in a way that makes us appear lesser people. In my time here on earth I have found that most people making those generalizations have never been on the inside and just observe from the outside. It appears this not you. I don't like generalizations for the most part, usually because the facts are normally skewed. And I guess it is different here than it is out west. Here it is the white collar guys who buy the custom knives, $3000 gun setups, pay top dollar for ALL of the best deer hunting leases, own million dollar motorhomes dedicated to NASCAR races.

So I am man enough to say I'm sorry if I read it wrong. My attempts towards humility got lost somewhere today.

Stargazer: I too go to the wilderness in part to avoid people. I get cussed out at least 10 times a day, get stuff thrown at me , guns and knives pulled on me, called names of all sorts. So yeah, solitude calls my name daily!
Also on a side note: In studies it has been proven that the ratio of wealthy fans/middle class fans who follow NASCAR is won by the wealthy.

A lot of us here don't fall into any prescribed category and resent it when we feel like anyone is trying to squeeze us in a box for their convenience. Sometimes we overreact; I am guilty of a few "chips on my shoulder"....; )

"I am guilty of a few "chips on my shoulder""

I don't know Kat, chips are rather small. Those things on your shoulder, however.......

Another thing,
The man many credit with coining the term "bushcraft" is most famous for his quote
"the more you know the less you carry"
Another reason why this is a false dichotomy. The so-called-bushcrafters that take the kitchen sink and a dozen knives must not know a whole lot according to the godfather of bushcraft.
Neither UL or bushcrafters can call thems selves anti-materialist. Its pretty hard to hike without realizing you may live or die by your gear. Real anti-materialist can be found on the street corner begging and convincing people they are spiritual.
Also, I have no idea why you think anti-capitalist are anti-materialist. Industrialism has been as much a part of left wing movements ( starting with futurism) as any where. Left wingers have been all about materialism traditionally. Food, work, producing for society and anti-religious anti church sentiment.

No problem. Typed messages have that ability to get people all riled up because the winks and grins just don't come across.

Here's my hillbilly family from Barry County Missouri in 1915. My grandmother is on the right front row with the pigtails. This pack is descended from two Lord Mayors of London and an Admiral of the British Navy, along with a long string of gentry, although they never knew it. My grandmother made it to the 4th grade, survived tuberculosis, raised her younger brothers and her own family through two world wars and the Great Depression. I can still hear her pounding on the piano and singing, "We Shall Gather at the River" at the top of her lungs. She had a drawl that would compete with any Georgian :)

"I don't know Kat, chips are rather small. Those things on your shoulder, however......."

yeah, huh? Well, it takes a strong gal to haul those logs around.

Kat is still trying to get over Sigmund Freud saying that the only contribution women made to society was knitting and weaving :) His daughter, Anna Freud, was quite the knitter and weaver, BTW.

I had a co-worker who would say, "Yeah, he's that way because he only has the second biggest chip on his shoulder." I loved that saying.

I'm not a fan of the notion that people do not vote in their own self-interest.

To me that implies that people are dopes duped into voting a certain way. Duped by whom, I don't know.

I just don't think people are that dumb, regardless of their level of education.

Besides, how can anyone else say what is in another person's self-interest? That's up to each person to determine for themselves.

Some of the smartest people I know are the least educated, and vice versa.

David, I take it you have never heard of someone being educated beyond their intelligence :)






"He who warned, uh, the British that they weren't gonna be takin' away our arms, uh, by ringing those bells, and um, makin' sure as he's riding his horse through town to send those warning shots and bells that we were going to be sure and we were going to be free, and we were going to be armed." --Sarah Palin, botching the history of Paul Revere's midnight ride,

Do we really want get into quoting Vice Prez Joe?

It's a free country. Sarah P is just so easy :) To quote, I mean [GRIN]

Edited by dwambaugh on 09/13/2011 16:47:56 MDT.

Hey Dale - People educated beyond their intelligence fall under the "vice versa" category.

And I wasn't referring to Sarah Palin.

The original poster is either naive or trolling.

Or maybe he was just trying to claim a good seat in the ivory tower.

A more productive discussion might be: do you go lightweight/minimalist outside of backpacking?

While I can't claim to be anti-capitalist with a straight face, there is something charming about the notion. I would love to be anti-capitalist except I love getting cool new stuff even more :)

One positive change that has occurred is that I'm less fixated on brands and more just on the specs and quality. Back in my early days of hiking it was cool to have those cool outdoor brands. Now my favourite is when my gear has no brand at all....it's just made by some guy and judged on it's merits rather than on it's label. On several occasions when wearing my down pants (made by Ben Smith) I've been asked what kind they are. It brings a smile to my face when I respond that 'they aren't any "kind", they were just made for me by a guy.'

So for me UL hiking is more 'local' (ie. less Asian, although I do love Montbell) and less brand fixated, but I wouldn't say it's less capitalistic.

Edited by dandydan on 09/14/2011 00:48:14 MDT.

My Dad is a recently retired sheet metal worker.

He never watched sports...
Used to read Kahil Gibran poetry...
And loves to cook (like all Magnanti men)


I'm so confused???? :D


BTW..I still love the occasional ice cold Busch crafted beer when found backpacking:



It was in the snow and FREE!!!!



Or is that a different type of Busch craft we are discussing>???

Edited by PaulMags on 09/14/2011 12:14:31 MDT.