What's the fixation with Cuben?

Any enclosed tent is prone to condensation in the 'wrong' conditions regardless of the fabic that it's made from, and since 'misting' is mainly that condentation on the inside getting knocked off by extremely big raindrops on the outside, I doubt that a Cuben tent will 'mist' any less than one made from good silnylon.

"Actually somewhere between 5 and 5 1/2 ounces lighter for canopy replacement. That's a little more than a half cup of water or maybe 3 granola bars. I've said it before (and I'll say it again), in a loaded pack no one can tell the difference of a few ounces. Call me a heretic."

+1 The voice of reason.

If you're planning on using the Moment with a liner, misting and condensation aren't much of a concern. I rarely use the Moment's liner. My down bag has good DWR, and I didn't notice the drops from dripping condensation (knocked off by rain from Irene) until the morning when I woke up and saw them on the outside of my bag. I simply shook them off the bag. I haven't experienced misting, or at least I haven't noticed it.

I added two additional stakes and guylines to the main pole and use them if I expect anything more than a strong breeze. I also use the 8" Easton stakes (2 = 1 oz), as the 6" ones are a little short for soft forest soil.

Edited by AndyF on 09/09/2011 00:23:38 MDT.

I'm not really fixated on cuben other than it appears to be superior to silnylon in every category except cost.

Since I can technically afford whatever tent I want (although I don't like to waste money)...I keep thinking, in order to cut the cost in half, do I want to accept the fact that my tent will be made out of a material that absorbs water, sags when wet, has potential for water to go through it (misting), and is heavier than other materials available? (silnylon)

Or do I just want to pony up for a material that appears to be superior in every way except cost? (cuben)

Edited by TylerD on 09/09/2011 07:46:43 MDT.

Silnylon does sag when wet, but adjusting a few guy lines is not that onerous.
However I disagree that silnylon absorbs water, or that water can pass through it (unless you are camping in a hurricane, in which case you will have other worries).
Look up Richards hydrostatic testing thread.

"material that appears to be superior in every way"

Appear is the operative word.
It may remain that to you but I am convinced that once folk get over the initial buzz maybe some will see that no fabric can be best for all in every situation.
(this happened with spinnaker,Epic, eVent and various proprietary fabrics that have come and gone and will keep happening with every new fabric)
For example you will still will get misting ,probably more so than fabrics that absorb water .
If you like to spend some time inside the tent under the sun (afternoon nap or just to be away from insects and the sun) I am convinced that Cuben will be a lot less "superior" than silnylon.
Some , like me , also prefer a bit more privacy inside a shelter, so here again , to me, silnylon is better.
Also do keep in mind that silnylon has been used in tents for over 30 years so it may not be as bad as you think.
No doubt more manufacturers will use it at least as an experiment for a few runs but I don't expect any major player to switch entirely to it.

BTW, my comment has nothing to do with the shelter you should choose.
I use one and played with the other and I cannot see any similarities.
By that I mean that if you like one you probably will not like the other.


Franco

Edited by Franco on 09/09/2011 19:00:10 MDT.

Well, I went through the same quandry as the OP and tried out the Moment (thanks to Henry) while awaiting my Sublite 2010. I own the Sublite and it's been a decent kit for a shelter and while I didn't experience a whole lot of rain over the year that I've owned it, I thought I would add my perspective for your consideration. The Tarptent is a great tent in it's simplicity. As stated, I tried out the Moment and it's so easy to setup. My Sublite is pretty comparable to the Moment and I would give the nod to the Moment for ease of setup. It's almost freestanding in relation to the Hexamid, and obviously takes much less time to setup.
That said, I have experienced condensation issues with the Tarptent which may be more about the location of where I setup than the design or fabric. I also like you researched these forums for feedback which is why I went with it. Recently I've gone ahead and purchased the Zpack's in terms of cutting weight from my tent weight. I have to say the Zpacks is featherweight in relation to the Tarptent. Yes, there's more staking, but what is a couple of minutes more for setup compared to the amount of granola weight add on? Well, as you start getting more into this, you find that it's like the law of diminishing returns- by $$$$. I think it's worth it in the long run to spend the extra money on the weight savings depending on the amount of use that you get out of it. But , as some have argued, the silnylon has been around a long time and has proven it's mettle as a durable material. I would give them that, but for a tent covering I went with the application. Since it's a cover, I don't see the relative merits for durability being superior with silnylon over cuben. If it was a pack, then yes. One thing that others have failed (from what I can see in this thread) to mention though is the ease fo getting into the tent. This may not be an issue for you depending on your flexibility or size, but for me, getting into a Hexamid with the vestibule that I have is somewhat of a pain. I'll qualify that though. I'm 5-9, 185 and not the most flexible guy at my age. I only took out my tent for the first time this past week on the High Sierra Trail, and found that the ventilation was exceptional (almost too good) and experienced rain, wind, and all kinds of inclement weather that the local thunderstorms produced. Given more experience with the tent, I would of liked to of been able to keep the sides down to prevent the amount of sand that the storm blew in. None the less I'm not sorry I purchased either one. I have to tell you though the customer service of Zpack was much better then expected with everything I have experienced to date. I haven't had to test it yet (as I have with the Tarptent) but Joe's attention to 'getting her done' has been great! In summary, Tarptent has the advantage in price, ease of getting in, and set-up, while Zpacks has it in weight and (to me) ventilation. Again, I don't have years of experience with backpacking but as an end user who doesn't set a price on my recreation for the most part, I would weigh out your criteria and possibly get a hold of both and try them out. It would really make your decision process that much easier. Perhaps either manufacture has some way to test them out prior to owning.

Regards.

Can you comment on wind performance? I have a hard time believing that the Hexamid would be anywhere near as good as the Moment in high winds.

Franco...good points on the sun and transparency issue. I don't like the idea of worrying about my shelter being in the sun. One more issue to keep in mind.

Arnold...good point on the issue of getting in and out. I had not thought about that issue but it is a pretty big deal to me. I am 260lbs and not super flexible, especially after hiking all day. Ease of entry is important to me. That is one reason why I have ruled out all but side entry. I had a front entry tent before and did not like it.

Franco, question...

I saw a youtube video of you spraying silicone onto your TT (forgot which one). How has that worked for you? Do you think spraying it eliminates any possibility of true misting? By that I mean rain drops going through the silnylon not raindrops shaking condensation loose.

Ty Ty
That shelter was a DR that the customer claimed it misted by penetration.
Unfortunately I forgot to test it myself before I used that spray so I don't really know if it did mist from penetration or from the inside.
Anyway as you can see in the video there was no misting afterwards. I have not heard from that TT customer since.
BTW, I am constantly amazed at how averse some are to just wipe the fly (from the inside) once or twice to get rid of moisture.
It takes me about 5 seconds and then I sleep soundly.
Franco

> I saw a youtube video of you spraying silicone onto your TT.
> How has that worked for you? Do you think spraying it eliminates
> any possibility of true misting?

Hi Ty,

I tried Franco's solution on a silnylon tarp that I had problems
with it misting in rainstorms. Spraying a light coat of silicone
stopped the misting in my case. Thanks Franco for the tip!

The fact that the misting stopped after treatment
proved that rain drops can indeed pass through silnylon
and mist into a tent. Misting is not just shaking invisible condensation loose.

Before I applied the treatment I ran an experiment to determine if my misting was
penetration or condensation I set up a plastic sheet next to my silnylon tarp. Both should have similar condensation shaking, but the plastic sheet is impermeable. There was misting under the silnylon, and none under the plastic in the same rainstorm. This experiment doesn't say all silnylon mists. But it does prove that misting is not just condensation shaking loose.

Plus now I know a way to reduce/stop misting.

"Actually somewhere between 5 and 5 1/2 ounces lighter for canopy replacement. That's a little more than a half cup of water or maybe 3 granola bars. I've said it before (and I'll say it again), in a loaded pack no one can tell the difference of a few ounces."
To me, 5.5oz is about the weight of one meal. If I shave 5.5oz off my baseweight then I can go hiking for 1/3 of a day longer while still having an enjoyable pack weight.

"I am convinced that once folk get over the initial buzz..."
What's it been? 5-6 years now? I think we're past the initial buzz stage

"(this happened with spinnaker,Epic, eVent and various proprietary fabrics that have come and gone and will keep happening with every new fabric)"
Every new fabric? A little pessimistic are we?

"Franco...good points on the sun and transparency issue."
I'm not sure what the sun issue is. Franco mentioned he prefers silnylon for a nap but didn't say why. In terms of UV exposure, cuben will hold up much better in the long term from what I've read. Some variants of cuben do create sort of a warm green house effect (which can be a good thing or a bad thing), but with a shelter like the Hexamid you wouldn't notice this because of all the ventilation.
I was a bit worried about transparency when I'd never used a cuben shelter, but once you try one you realize it's a very small issue. Even with white cuben, if you're setting it up then it's likely near dusk and no one can see in, although you can see bright things (headlamp, moon etc) somewhat from inside looking out. Some people might not like it, but it really is quite a minor concern. My wife is a fairly cautious lady and she had no troubles changing in a single wall white cuben tent once it was closer to dusk. Keep in mind that you see a whole lot more stars and moonlight when you cowboy camp then you do from inside a cuben shelter. Aside from mid-day privacy concerns, there's not much to worry about.

Edited by dandydan on 09/12/2011 23:40:46 MDT.

While I count comment on the Moment (I tried in "Round Valley" in San Jacinto with no wind) I can comment about the stability of the Hexamid. I was camping two weeks ago on the HST @ Hamilton Lakes and during the first night the wind was gusting for hours at over 20 knots easy. I setup with rocks since the ground (granite?) was way to firm for any stake I could put in. Being that this was only the first time I have used it my experience was limited but it did not blow over or have any issues with stability, or flapping due to the wind. I'm not clear though on one being any better than the other unless your strictly referring to the amount of stakes needed on the Moment vs. the Hexamid.

Still have not decided, been busy with some other things. I think I understand the pro's and con's of each tent though thanks to the posters in this thread.

I think I may end up buying both, get them home and set them up in the yard then sell the one I end up not wanting. The only danger there is that I end up wanting to keep both :)

I have the hexamid solo with cuben floor and door (pre-beak). I've had it in windy conditions, all night rain etc. It's been in Patagonia and Corsica (unfamiliar ground, crowded campsites).

The thing has performed like a champ.

However, the only other tent I've often thought about is the TT Moment, simply for the ease of set-up and most importantly, the small footprint. You can set-up in small space.

So you've got good taste.

The Hexamid though is very very light, Highly functional, very very comfortable if you like airy. It also packs down to slightly larger than a nalgene if you fold and then roll the entire tent, door floor and all. It packs really nice. I think mine comes in at just a bit under 14 oz without stakes.

The Moment is close to double that weight, and larger packed size, but easy to set-up, much more like a traditional tent vs tarp in terms of set-up. Then again in terms of sleeping under it's also like a tent vs tarp in terms of feel.



One thing is for sure though is that Joe and Zpacks customer service is the best. Top shelf.

BTW, I just used it with the 1.3 oz tent pole (wanted only carry-on and no checked bags) and it performed great.

I also have the TT Double Rainbow and haven't noticed much difference in terms of misting etc with silnylon. It sags after a rain and doesn't look too pretty but isn't that big of a deal.

Tough call.

Edited by elf773 on 09/20/2011 09:44:31 MDT.

"very high winds"

Anything like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1iJvk6tKs4&feature=player_embedded

You would have a much better chance of doing this in a Moment than a Hexamid.

Just sayin'

Good information, thank you.

I am glad to hear someone agree with me on these two tents being two great options. I know they are a lot different in a lot of ways but I think of them as the category leaders in their respective categories...I need to decide between the category.

The only catagory these two shelters share is that they are non-freestanding shelters. There are no other similarities to speak of.

If I experience winds like that in the SE USA there is probably a mandatory evacuation order in effect that I would need to follow :)

David - that's what I mean, that they are very different but each leaders in their respective categories.