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Anyone else put off by the Ray-Way?
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Ultra Magnus
(Ultra_Magnus) - F
Anyone else put off by the Ray-Way? on 08/31/2011 12:06:24 MDT Print View

I don't know what they guy is like in person, and he's accomplished a lot in his life as an outdoorsman, but I can't get past this arrogant, egostitical, know-it-all vibe coming from his website. His whole don't share attitude bugs me, as if I couldn't figure out how to cut up a walmart sleeping pad and tape it into a z-rest all on my own. It's a pretty sharp contrast to many of the other cottage manufacturers that come on the forums freely giving out instructions on their techniques and methods, encouraging others to make stuff themselves. One example would be Chris Zimmer posting on here how he makes his shoulder straps. What'd he lose? A sale or two to a couple of adventurous people who might try making their own packs? Even if I can make my own pack, chances are it'd be a touch on the crappy side. If I buy a pack from Chris Zimmer (or any other cottage manufacturer, just using him as an example) I'm buying his skill and craftsmanship in a nice looking quality pack.

Another off the top of my head example is Six Moon Designs freely posting patters for their bivy and tarp.

But maybe it's just me- I like sharing. Being told I can't just rubs me the wrong way.

BM

Patrick S
(xpatrickxad) - F

Locale: Upper East TN
Re: Anyone else put off by the Ray-Way? on 08/31/2011 15:36:45 MDT Print View

Last I checked he didn't list what specific fabrics and materials came with the kits and you couldn't get the pack dvd without buying the whole kit. That was enough to keep me from being a customer. I understand he's in the business of being a business and trying to make money, but the way everything comes off doesn't jive with me.

Terry Trimble
(socal-nomad) - F

Locale: North San Diego county
Anyone else put off by the Ray-Way? on 08/31/2011 17:29:01 MDT Print View

I think he just ticked he was taken for ride by Golite and he wants to make every thing he knows about backpacking light a special little secret he passing on to you .

Like he does in his book his term for sponge/wet rag homeless person bath is a "Dundo shower" he keeps mentioning it in his book you don't find out till after 270 plus pages later what it really is.
You should read him rant about not to buy thing with a label and if it does how to cross it out with a sharpie marker or rip the tag off or sew a light weight silnylon patch over embroidered labels.

I also think he trying to make a living he try to put together kits. But quest fabric and Thru hiker do the same thing he does. To bad their is not company like Frostline kits from the 1970's who sends you real full size patterns like dress makers use and supplies you need with step by step instructions and sewing tips. That how I learned how to sew in boy scouts 39 years ago when I made a down sleeping bag and stuff sack.
Terry

Pilate de Guerre
(deGuerre) - F

Locale: SE, USA
Re: Anyone else put off by the Ray-Way? on 08/31/2011 17:46:25 MDT Print View

"I think he just ticked he was taken for ride by Golite and he wants to make every thing he knows about backpacking light a special little secret he passing on to you ."

What ride was Jardine taken on by GoLite?

EDIT: Never mind. I used Google and found out.

Edited by deGuerre on 08/31/2011 18:27:00 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Anyone else put off by the Ray-Way? on 08/31/2011 19:52:17 MDT Print View

I think because (as far as he is concerned) he has been doing this before anyone else and it's almost as if he thinks he should be the one who is responsible for it's upcoming.
It's almost as a claim to a paten that no one else should use because other companies only altered a piece of gear that was already made perfect by him and thus that other piece of gear is not good for not only you but as a whole in the community to have.


Although he has sparked the interest for many ultaliters, it's crazy how every piece of my gear is now lighter, better, and more useful than everything in his gear list.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
"Anyone else put off by the Ray-Way?" on 08/31/2011 20:53:18 MDT Print View

So you say he's egoistic and off-putting.
But nobody's forcing us to listen.
Billions of voices are asking to be heard.
Listen to what you want to.
That's the information age.
I like it.

A. B.
(tomswifty)
re: on 08/31/2011 21:32:52 MDT Print View

I am put off by his idea that you shouldn't share your instructions or make more than one item per set of instructions.

It seems to work though; I've seen people in the gear swap claim you can't resell the instructions because they are 'patented'.

Oh well. There are plenty of other hobbyists willing to share their methods and ideas.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
One item per set of instructions?? on 08/31/2011 22:31:01 MDT Print View

"I am put off by his idea that you shouldn't share your instructions or make more than one item per set of instructions."

Not sharing instructions, I guess, but you should not make more than one item per set of instructions....is that true?

Daniel Goldenberg
(dag4643)

Locale: Pacific Northwet
Re: Anyone else put off by the Ray-Way? on 08/31/2011 23:14:04 MDT Print View

I've purchased some Ray Way products and I guess I can understand his wish to buy another kit if you want to make a second item and not to share the pattern, since it is in effect intellectual property. It's similar to software licenses where you are supposed to use it only on one machine.

I don't understand however why Ray would not give technical support for a product purchased from him. I had purchased an item a while back and forgot an instruction so I emailed Ray with a simple question which clearly Ray new the answer to. His response to me was that "He could not remember off hand" but that the next time I ordered another item from him to ask the question in my order and he would "dig up the answer"

Needless to say I have never ordered anything from him again since he clearly will not provide technical support for the product after purchase.

Ryan Krause
(rmkrause)

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Vote with your wallet on 08/31/2011 23:42:55 MDT Print View

Vote with your wallet by supporting companies that share your values and value you as a human.

I only hope people would do the same with all companies they interact with - if enough people stopped buying clothing from companies that use sweat shops, pulled their money out of banks that caused the subprime mortgage crisis, didn't buy food from giant agribusiness that wipe out the rainforest to put up a palm oil plantation, etc these practices would go away.

Patrick Matte
(JPMatte)

Locale: N. Georgia
kits on 09/01/2011 04:40:14 MDT Print View

You buy material from him for tarps and others without buying the whole kit again.

A. B.
(tomswifty)
Re: One item per set of instructions?? on 09/01/2011 08:28:17 MDT Print View

Yes, Kat. You can see it right on his website before the proceed with order button. I would copy/paste what it says but he has blocked copy/paste on his website. Give it a try yourself. Of course you can work around it but I am not going to put forth the effort.

Also, it's not like a software license; it's like a book. Once you buy it, it is yours and you are free to resell it.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: One item per set of instructions?? on 09/01/2011 09:32:02 MDT Print View

In the world of marine architecture, you normally get the rights to make one boat from a plan set. I believe it is the same with building architects as well. Of course you can negotiate for multiples, but the designer owns the design unless he explicitly sells the rights to it. If someone designs for a living, you steal from them when you violate their intellectual property rights. They are under no obligation to share their work freely. Of course you can try to knock off their design, but you better not get caught selling them.

You may not have been communicating with Ray when you made you inquiry. I have no idea what his business arrangement is, but he may have an assistant answering mail and shipping items.

IMHO, Ray Jardine is an engineer at heart and by practice. Did you know he holds patents on the cam climbing devices? And he had the cajones to stand down the conventional wisdom of a good part of the outdoor recreation industry. If you read his book, I think his diatribes on diet and foods illuminate the crackpot side of his personality too. So think nerdy-inventor-iconoclast rather than a slick business type with an MBA. People are often brilliant in one area and not so much in others.

We're lucky that many of the cottage makers are good on the service side too. A few have been weak on the communication side, or keeping up with order deadlines, etc. I think we've seen some outlandish responses from a couple of the more corporate equipment manufacturers in the forums over the last year or so, doing more damage than good to their reputations. Business is the Wild West, with a lot of variation in quality of product and service. I do agree with voting with your wallet--- you want the product enough to put up with the annoyances or you don't.

Edited by dwambaugh on 09/01/2011 09:37:25 MDT.

Pilate de Guerre
(deGuerre) - F

Locale: SE, USA
Re: Re: One item per set of instructions?? on 09/01/2011 10:24:30 MDT Print View

Blocking the usage of the right mouse button is silly. As is embedding your images in Flash objects. You'll see business often do such silly things. The Ray Jardine website does both.

To circumvent the blocking of the right mouse button one simply has to disable scripts. This can be done by a browser extension such as NoScript or even just chaining an option in your browser settings.

Stripping an image from a Flash object is almost as easy. Not to mention the PrntScrn key in Windows and the Grab utility, among others, in OSX.

Anyone that wants to "steal" his intellectual "property" can easily do so. All he's doing is annoying readers/customers and robbing himself of goodwill, links, photo credits, and/or Google image search hits. And for what?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: One item per set of instructions?? on 09/01/2011 10:59:52 MDT Print View

I hear you about architectural designs. From the persepective of someone who sews and buys patterns at the store, this seems a bit much. Whatever he wants to do is fine by me. Not that stuff compares, but I share my designs and my knowledge freely. I find that the feedback and the input and suggestions I get are worth it.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: One item per set of instructions?? on 09/01/2011 11:17:45 MDT Print View

>Anyone that wants to "steal" his intellectual "property" can easily do so. All he's doing is annoying readers/customers and robbing himself of goodwill, links, photo credits, and/or Google image search hits. And for what?

Indeed.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: One item per set of instructions?? on 09/28/2011 16:42:27 MDT Print View

I have to agree with Dale on this. If he sells it with "limitations" then you should abide by them. And you can decide whether or not to click the "buy" button.

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
Ray J. on 10/04/2011 08:46:04 MDT Print View

>IMHO, Ray Jardine is an engineer at heart and by practice. Did you >know he holds patents on the cam climbing devices? And he had the >cajones to stand down the conventional wisdom of a good part of the >outdoor recreation industry. If you read his book, I think his >diatribes on diet and foods illuminate the crackpot side of his >personality too. So think nerdy-inventor-iconoclast rather than a >slick business type with an MBA. People are often brilliant in one >area and not so much in others.

Dale really hit the mark here. Go back to the climbing world of 30 years ago, Ray J. was a genius crackpot then just like he is now. His powers of analysis and synthesis are extremely strong. His ability to connect with others and understand his arrogance are extremely poor. It's a singular coin with 2 sides, all part of the whole.

IMO Ray is not some Snidely Whiplash with an MBA, scheming to milk you of your hard earned pennies with his 1-use-only patterns. He's just a boy genius with a retarded sense of human connection who is getting along the only way he knows how to do it.

My heart breaks for his poor wife.

Ray's Way used to irritate me too until I took a cafeteria attitude with his work: take what I need, leave the rest.

Matthew Black
(mtblack) - F
Re: Anyone else put off by the Ray-Way? on 10/04/2011 13:47:29 MDT Print View

I am more perturbed at how he is so readily dismissed on this site. I first heard of the Pacific Crest trail in 1998 or '99. Web search turned up Ray Jardine and his books more readily than any other source when researching the PCT. He freely outlined lightweight/ultralight techniques when such a thing was all but unheard of or at least forgotten.

He may be mistaken about dietary needs and often bombastic but he is largely responsible for promoting lightweight concepts to the public at large. Yes he has contemporaries but it seems unlikely that much of the cottage gear accepted as nearly mandatory on this site would even exist without his influence on how thru-hiking can best be accomplished.

I also find it notable that before his web store his patterns were available freely on the web or in his books. He also provided elaborate enough description of his ideas that they could be created independently with a little trial and error. I primarily remember his emphasis on creating inexpensive and custom-tailored gear for yourself, not that he had a disturbing fondness for corn pasta.

Elliott Wolin
(ewolin) - MLife

Locale: Hampton Roads, Virginia
RE: Anyone else put off by the Ray-Way? on 10/04/2011 14:30:20 MDT Print View

Thanks Matt, I'm with you!

Despite Jardine's sometimes preachy tone, especially in his earlier books, he makes a big point that what he describes is what works for him, based on his opinions and experience (and he has LOTS of it!).

He emphasizes this even more in his later books, but how many times does he need to repeat it before he gets the point across? In his later books he also tones things down quite a bit and comes across as much less preachy and bombastic. He constantly notes that you should try things out for yourself and come to your own conclusions. I think his book Trail Life is second to none, and his new tarp book is great (my BPL review coming soon...).

I find the vast majority of his advice to be extremely sound and his techniques to be excellent. I've saved fortunes making my own gear (RayWay design or my own). I use tarps and quilts almost exclusively. I likely wouldn't be backpacking in my late 50's at all if it wasn't for Jardine.

Give the guy a break: ignore his odd penchant for corn pasta and other harmless quirks, don't get upset when you don't like his tone of voice, and appreciate his great designs, vast experience and sound advice.