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Peter Evans
(NLslacker)
Strict gun laws on 02/20/2013 00:31:17 MST Print View

Canada has criminals with guns... we also have strict gun laws.
There is much less gun crime here than in the US (normalized for population)

Stats

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2008002/article/10518-eng.htm

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: And another Couple of attacks on 02/20/2013 00:38:06 MST Print View

Well, they certainly don't want a gun store and buy them. Buying a firearm in a store requires citizenship and a quick background that filters out felons.

Maybe they get them from the gun show loophole. Private sale of firearms with no paperwork, just hand over the cash and buy, is legal in many states. Personally, I think this shouldn't be legal. The media is so focused on demonizing scary looking military style rifles that they ignore real issues like this.

I don't understand why you call it a "gun problem". I guess it's a problem if your country doesn't allow self defense with a firearm and only the criminals have them. If nobody in the world owned guns then criminals would be using knives and machetes. Why is that any better or worse? Firearms are great self defense tools that require a minimal amount of training compared to hand to hand weapons. Someone who is small or physically weak has a good chance at defending themselves against someone who would normally overpower them with brute force.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
[..] on 02/20/2013 00:39:25 MST Print View

[..]

Edited by RogerDodger on 05/08/2014 00:59:16 MDT.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Strict gun laws on 02/20/2013 00:44:23 MST Print View

Gun crime statistics are irrelevant. How somebody kills someone doesn't matter, they still killed them. You should be looking at the total homicide rate. Yes, the united states tops that list but we have more crime in general. We also have gangs, an open border, and drug cartels running loose. We also have a very unequal wealth distribution compared to other western countries which I'm sure leads to criminal activity.

Peter Evans
(NLslacker)
Move this thread to chaff please. on 02/20/2013 00:45:13 MST Print View

I give up... this is an ultralight backpacking forum and this thread is discussing the right pistol to take into the back country.
I don't need self defence because no-one is attacking me... even if they were to attack me, 99.99 % chance they don't have a gun. (outside of the US)

This debate is un-winnable because many can't seem to imagine a world without constant confrontation and fear.

My $0.02

A Canadian

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re: Re: And another Couple of attacks on 02/20/2013 00:45:30 MST Print View

Justin,
The guy named Colt (inventor of Colt) called it the great equalizer, for the reasons you stated. A strongman, elderly or petite lady are all equally able to protect themselves... From each other.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Move this thread to chaff please. on 02/20/2013 01:01:19 MST Print View

You started the debate Peter.

Peter Evans
(NLslacker)
Unwinnable Debate on 02/20/2013 01:04:38 MST Print View

It is an un-winnable debate because when presented will well documented evidence that goes against your world view... you declare it irrelevant.

I roll my eyes in your general direction.

Edited by NLslacker on 02/20/2013 01:05:44 MST.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Its ok to leave this thread, if you dont like it. on 02/20/2013 01:05:57 MST Print View

Peter,
This thread is not about requiring you to carry or to convince you to change your mind. Do what you will.
For others that are interested, and want to learn more, this is the thread. I definitely learned more from discussing with others.
Its totally ok to have opposing views, we are not clones.
Your opinion disagrees with this thread, that is ok. please disregard it.
No hard feelings, we may completely agree on another thread/ topic.

Peter Evans
(NLslacker)
Agreed on 02/20/2013 01:07:52 MST Print View

Looking forward to it... no hard feelings.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Unwinnable Debate on 02/20/2013 01:14:15 MST Print View

Yes, I think that firearm related homicide statistics are irrelevant. Overall homicide rates, regardless of the weapon used, are the important thing to look at. If firearm related homicides go down and homicides not related to firearms go up, what was accomplished?

I agree that this isn't the right place to get into a debate, there are other threads just for that.

Peter Evans
(NLslacker)
Here is the right place :) on 02/20/2013 01:27:58 MST Print View

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=73735

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
Evidence on 02/20/2013 03:09:09 MST Print View

Mr. Evans, despite extensive research on the topic by the public health community over the last fifty years, there is no demonstrated correlation between civilian ownership of firearms and homicide rates.

I suggested reading the National Academy of Sciences book on firearms and violence if you are interested in this topic.

The only link which is supportable by evidence is that availability of firearms is associated with a higher percentage of suicides by firearms (but not with suicide rates as a whole.) To give a concrete example: Japan has a suicide rate dramatically higher than the U.S, despite firearms being virtually unobtainable. In fact, the combined murder and suicide rate of Japan is much higher than the combined murder and suicide rate of the U.S.

You gave the example of Canada, Australia, and the U.K. in the graph you posted. In scientific jargon, that is known as cherry picking. One could give the counter-example of Iceland... which happens to be vastly safer than Canada, Australia, or the U.K., but has very high firearms ownership. Or on the opposite side of the spectrum, numerous countries with no civilian ownership of firearms, but very high homicide rates.

Crime is a complex socio-economic issue. Trying to pretend otherwise is probably a waste of everyone's valuable backpacking time.

Nick Larsen
(stingray4540) - F

Locale: South Bay
Re: Re: Re: Re: Solo security on 02/20/2013 03:34:44 MST Print View

"To my knowledge, I can carry a pistol into a national forest or blm land. There shouldn't be an issue with that. State Parks or National parks are a no go. " - Justin

Justin, please do NOT rely on "your knowledge". Rely on the law if you want to stay out of jail.

If you have any questions about gun laws in california, all your questions will be answered by a visit to www.calguns.net they have a very helpfull forum, but most of your questions can be answered with a search.

You can only carry a firearm without a permit if you are on your way to hunt or fish. And this IMO is a sticky exception to base your justification on.

A carry permit is not impossible to get in California however! There is hope! But, it depends on what county you live in. Permits are issued by your county Sheriff, and it is totally up to them. If you visit Calguns, you can find out if your county freely issues, like Fresno or Sacramento, or NEVER issues, like Santa Clara county.
Even so, there is still hope! There are currently several lawsuits against individual Sheriffs, Santa Clara county included. If these are won, then CA may be on its way to a shall issue state.

Just, please do your research.I don't want you to end up in jail for being ignorant.

Paul Mason
(dextersp1) - F
Why no hate for tobbaco on 02/20/2013 06:45:33 MST Print View

"In the United States, smoking is responsible for about one in five deaths annually (i.e., about 443,000 deaths per year, and an estimated 49,000 of these smoking-related deaths are the result of secondhand smoke exposure)"
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate

Why all the talk about guns when there are so many easily actionable killer that could be addressed first.

And why all the talk about assault rifles?
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/01/03/fbi-hammers-clubs-kill-more-people-than-rifles-shotguns/
"In 2011, there were 323 murders committed with a rifle.

Edited by dextersp1 on 02/20/2013 06:48:28 MST.

Nick Larsen
(stingray4540) - F

Locale: South Bay
Re: Why no hate for tobbaco on 02/20/2013 07:32:26 MST Print View

To add to Paul's post:

Traffic deaths that were alcohol related in 1998 15,935 (http://www.madd.org)

Murders by guns in the US for 1998 9,143 (1998 Uniform Crime Report)

CDC's website numbers from 2009: (suicides removed from all categories)

All transport: 38,334
Poisoning: 35,194
Fall: 24,877
Firearms: 12,612

Perhaps we should make everyone wear a helmet, ban cars, and make you get a permit to own poisonous substances? If you really want to save lives that is...


Oh, and hammer and clubs killed more people in 2011 than rifles.

Edward Zwibel
(YetiEddie) - MLife

Locale: Sunny San Diego
+1 to each their own on 02/20/2013 08:38:52 MST Print View

As a legal carry guy everywhere, (Law Enforcement). I literally wear one at all times. EXCEPT in the back country. So it's quick wits, bear spray, best practices and common sense. I find the people to be amenable, friendly, even going out of their way to be so. It was once said "We pack our fears". But again, to each their own!

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Solo Wilderness Security on 02/20/2013 09:21:24 MST Print View

FWIW I only carry as permitted by law. I haven't been on an adventure yet worth dying or receiving a felony for.

I backpack with children in mountain lion country. In this scenario, I carry a gun in lieu of OC spray. I carry a Glock 26 and have >20 years extensive firearms training. This pistol is compact, carries 10 rounds in my smallest mag (will accept a 30 rounder if necessary), and I pack 9mm jacketed hollow points. I've shot this weapon enough to ensure I can shoot 12" shot groups at 25 yards under duress. There may be lighter options out there but I'm not willing to compromise on the performance of this pistol.

IMO OC spray is better than a firearm for bear defense; where I live, black bear and mountain lion territory overlap. While black bears are capable of killing me, I'm less concerned about being attacked by a bear and more concerned about my kids getting jumped by a mountain lion. If I'm traveling with kids AND another adult, I'll usually throw my bear spray to the other adult and carry the pistol. If I'm traveling solo, I'll only carry if I'm in an area prone to covert meth labs and marijuana grows. I'm 6'3 so while it's not impossible for a mountain lion to attack me it isn't very likely either.

I follow normal protocols when hiking with kids in mountain lion country and keep them close and in front of me so they don't get jumped from behind.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
attitudes about guns in CA and US on 02/20/2013 09:42:05 MST Print View

Peter E - Re your 2 cents post - Here is one yankee who agrees with you 1000%.
You could post another bar chart showing the US exports of weapons being many times greater compared to other countries. But it would be pointless, the debate being "un-winnable" as you put it. Nothing, even the worst atrocities, seems to change the gun culture here. And within it lies the seeds of our own destruction.
I have seen the engine of that self destruction up close in Vietnam, and from afar many decades later in Afghanistan. Thank you for saying so well what needed to be said.

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Mutual Arisings on 02/20/2013 10:21:48 MST Print View

Ice Axe-

"Kindness begets Kindness"

Truer words never spoken. I'm a huge 2nd Amd guy and have carried a weapon for a couple decades for work. I've received countless hours of "Rules of Engagement" and "Use of Force Continuum" training to understand when my life is in jeopardy and when I can use my mind and my mouth to avert trouble or deescalate an agitated person.

I look at my pistol and other weapons like other safety equipment. I've worn my seatbelt for >40 years and have never needed it. Hopefully I never will. I don't wear my seatbelt in a parking lot and I don't carry a pistol when a reasonable threat analysis wouldn't require one. It's my responsibility to understand all of the variables (e.g. prevalence of mountain lion attacks) and I bear the burden if I'm wrong.

I'm concerned when people are loaded for bear but don't correspondingly educate themselves on how, and more importantly, when to use a weapon. A local bouncer is now a convicted felon and will soon lose all of his assets for getting too aggressive with a patron. A little training, education, and common decency and he would have avoided the situation all together.

BTW I'm a huge Gandhi fan. I enjoyed visiting his museum and Smriti in India. His anthology was a wonderful and refreshing read; I'd recommend it to you if you haven't read it yet.