I am a side sleeper and also sleep in the knees tucked up foetal position (due to a back injury). I have JRB No-Sniveller (only 48 inches wide)and have taken it down to 28 degrees using the following. Kooka bay synth pad (R4-5), thin Suluk46 foam pad, MLD superlight bivy, goosefeet socks, MLD Cocoon top with hood, fleece balaclava, merino leggings. I place a Kooka bay pillow under my knees and this allows me to keep my butt on the pad. I was very comfortable. However, for some people this would be too much and for some too little there is a lot of variance. Also what one individual classes as been warm enough may not be the same as another. Some people consider making it through the night alive a success whilst some want to be completely warm all over for the whole night.

A few thoughts:

1. Using a bivy made a big difference for me.
2. It does take a couple of nights to get your technique for using a quilt just right.
3. I have found that one weak link in the chain can have a negative impact on the overall system even when every other part of the system is working individually perfectly e.g. cold feet, cold head, not warm enough pad, not enough food. I found this out when I wore my hiking socks to bed (as it had worked well the night before and I thought I would be too hot in my goosefeet), but I soon felt cold overall. I switched to my goosefeet and within 10 minutes I was warm all over and had a great night.

Edited by jephoto on 08/27/2011 16:48:44 MDT.

If your butt is cold, it could be that your pad is not inflated enough. I'd try that before adding a CFF to your setup. If you're sleeping anywhere near 30degrees, I'd say some sort of down or synthetic hood or balaclava is essential.

I wouldn't be surprised if thats the weak link.

edit: 2x post

Edited by sgiachetti on 08/27/2011 21:17:05 MDT.

Could be dehydration. And I was really surprised to see the effect of blowing up a pad more on R value in the recent testing.

>A friend of mine (a nutrition teacher) claimed that the best evening meal was one that was thermally hot and also spicy hot.

Where did they get their degree?

Rafi- I do think that you might be on the cold side of the sleeper spectrum ( while I'm probably at the other end). I have the same quilt and just got back from a trip w/ temps down right at freezing (evidenced by my platy bottles)- my pad is the regular Neo- so roughly half the r value of your pad. I slept w/ nothing but my long sleeve (150 merino) top and light merino beanie and was comfortably warm both nights (I had a light down jacket, warm tights, clean socks at the ready if needed)

Having said all that, we still need to correct your situation- a warm hat (balaclava is what I'd suggest) would go along way, a thin ccf pad certainly isn't going to hurt (makes a nice sit/kneeling pad too), a high calorie snack right before bed helps me (cliff bar, snickers, etc)- if it's already cold when going to bed I do situps in bed until I'm warmed up- getting warm before going to sleep helps out a lot- lastly I'd insure that your quilt is giving you adequate coverage around the sides- any gaps will quickly rob you of warmth

Mike

I will experiment with at least some of these strategies, especially the hat, extra food before sleeping, and possibly a thinlight pad.

thanks again!

r

"I'll disagree here David. A side sleeper simply needs a wider quilt. Ask anyone to sleep with their ar$e hanging out into the cold, and they won't be comfortable."

Not much of a disagreement, that is exactly my point. Unfortunately, up until recently, there wasn't wasn't much choice on width on quilts (good on katabatic gear for this). But, if you built more width in your quilt, you are not gaining much in terms of a quilt vs a unzipped sleeping bag over the top of you. It probably doesn't help that I am bigger than average, thus gear designed for the average will more quickly find its compromises.

"Where did they get their degree?"

BYU

Thermally hot food makes your innards feel warm. Spicy hot food makes your head think it's warm.

--B.G.--

"Spicy hot food makes your head think it's warm."

Spicy like chili? Makes my lips and tongue warm, but causes my body to sweat. And sweat coold down the body, so the end result would not be desired - for me at least.

i think the answer to the OP's question is to buy a warmer bag. there isn't a lighter way to sleep warmer than extra ounces of down...

I said: One "trick" is to bring a high calorie snack to bed with you (snickers bar!). Eating triggers a boost of metabolic rate ... I'm not sure how long that lasts but it seems to be long enough to get me through the coldest hour or so of the night if I have awaken chilled.

Rafi replied: I'd be concerned about bringing food into the tent in bear country.

I should have qualified my remark by saying that where I camp most of the time (northern Midwest) bears are denned up for the winter when it is cold enough to need help getting through the night.

Hi Josh,

Well that would be a bummer. I will do some experimenting. If I can't find a reasonable solution though, I may have to take the approach of finding a warmer bag (not sure whether to go for 22 deg or 15 deg version if I were to stick with Katabatic). I did choose the wide version of the palisade simply because I'm a pretty restless sleeper. Not sure how much of a role that might have played. I like the idea of supporting cottage gear makers, but buying such expensive equipment and having it not work out in the field is frustrating and costly.

Thanks,

rhz

well, i kind of was implying that you sell the current quilt you're using. this is a pretty economical way to dial in your kit. i know that's how i've done things. experimented with gear for a short period of time and a minimal cost...

Even being female I am on the farthest thinkable end of cold sleeping and I understand very well the frustration and deception when getting a nice piece of gear, everybody likes it and ... it is just not warm enough for me.
Considering all the variables food, warm head, no draft, warm mat, mileage of the day, is it the first day/night on the trail, bath/wash to late in the evening, humidity, micro-climate of the campsite etc. all that can make a huge difference in the comfort for the upcoming night - for me with the same sleeping bag comfort temperature varies up to 15° Celsius! I was shivering in a 15°F/-9°C rated bag when the night was +9°C, and I slept - at least for a few hours - in the same bag at -15°C - that makes a range of 24°C.
Only with experience you will learn about your body and gear, try the variables and learn the weighting factor each has for you. Until then there may still come a few not so comfortable nights.
The good news: When you think you know how it works, your body gets older and you start again ;)

Didn't you already say that you have WM Flash Pants, Rafi? If you've already got those, that's more down right there--no need to buy a heavier quilt, unless you can't stand the extra weight or bulk in your pack of the pants. I've taken down pants on shoulder season hikes to bolster my Montbell SS #3.

Hi Diane,

Yes, next time I'll be taking the pants in addition to the jacket. There is a weight penalty, of course, but the bag itself is very light (approx 22 oz) so it's worth trying.

thanks,

rhz