"Hi, I am a Tea Partier" (video)
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Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm a Teabagger. on 08/11/2011 19:16:57 MDT Print View

"All too true Tom, all too true. And we just don't seem to want to learn our lessons. Ever."

The longer we procrastinate, the harder the lessons will be. Time is running out on us, and others are not standing on the sidelines picking their noses while we dither.

Daniel Allen
(Dan_Quixote) - F

Locale: below the mountains (AK)
Re: Re: Re: I'm a Teabagger. on 08/11/2011 19:23:46 MDT Print View

"Those who once ran The Evil Empire much take grim satisfaction as they enjoy the spectacle of America following in their footsteps down the path to ruin."

Tom, that's prettymuch what I'm saying too. =)

On another note, could you expand on the contents of the Afghan Kool Aid?

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm a Teabagger. on 08/11/2011 19:34:29 MDT Print View

"But there is one area, in my opinion, in which many, many of us could follow the tea partier lead. They stopped settling for the lesser of two evils and instead supported and elected very different politicians, not the usual cast of characters. It's really screwed up the country at the moment, yes, but that's a necessary side effect of true change."

In my more optimistic moments I see them as the first primal scream of an outraged American public. Hopefully it will be followed by an equally independent group with a more nuanced, pragmatic view of what it will take to get our country back on track.

In my darker mood I see them as a bunch of Manichaen dupes that are being manipulated by the Republicans to shore up their support amongst the nutters on the far right fringe. Lord help us if this is the case and they prevail in 2012.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm a Teabagger. on 08/11/2011 19:43:31 MDT Print View

"Hopefully it will be followed by an equally independent group with a more nuanced, pragmatic view of what it will take to get our country back on track."

My hope as well, but I'm not very hopeful......

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm a Teabagger. on 08/11/2011 19:45:20 MDT Print View

Douglas Ide said:
"While we crowed over the fall of The Evil Empire, it passed unnoticed that this period was the beginning of the massive increase in our own national debt. We have continued to spend massive amounts on our military, more than the next 10 nations combined,IIRC, and have drunk deeply of the Afghan Kool Aid, washed down with an Iraqi chaser. We also have military bases in over 140 countries and are the world's number 1 exporter of arms. At the same time there has been a massive redistribution of wealth upward into the hands of a very small percentage of the US population, millions are unemployed, our education and infrastructure systems are a shambles, and our own government, at all levels, is tottering on the brink of insolvency. Those who once ran The Evil Empire much take grim satisfaction as they enjoy the spectacle of America following in their footsteps down the path to ruin."

All too true Tom, all too true. And we just don't seem to want to learn our lessons. Ever.

I disagree with much of what the tea partiers stand for, and, unfortunately, far too many of them are simply the same old hypocritical, greedy, christian-spouting but not christian-acting folk (that jesus, he must have been all about keeping what's his and letting the poor and disabled fend for themselves if you take our many 'christian' examples in this country).

But there is one area, in my opinion, in which many, many of us could follow the tea partier lead. They stopped settling for the lesser of two evils and instead supported and elected very different politicians, not the usual cast of characters. It's really screwed up the country at the moment, yes, but that's a necessary side effect of true change.

Far, far too many of the American voting public simply settles every election cycle. Gonna vote Dem because the Repubs are bad people. Gonna vote Repub because the Dems are bad people. No sense in actually thinking for ourselves, that's too much trouble. No sense in actually doing a bit of research on candidates, 30-second sound bites will do. Besides, ain't got time, gotta catch [insert reality TV show or sporting event here]. So we keep getting the same-old, same-old, and nothing changes. It really doesn't matter much who is in power, the military continues to grow, military contractors continue to get rich through both legal and illegal means, our education and infrastructure systems continue to deteriorate, the massive redistribution of wealth goes on unabated. Under both Dem and Repub administrations/congresses. We just don't get that the lesser of two evils is still evil.

At least the tea partiers are really attempting to affect real change. If the rest of us stopped settling and did the same, we might actually get the country we think we deserve. But we don't, we settle, we vote, as I've said before, our fears and our hatreds and our intolerance and our ignorance, and we do get the country we deserve.

It sucks being so cynical, yes, but it's a learned response.......



Excellent post. Thanks for conveying your message so well.

Edited by Kat_P on 08/11/2011 20:33:11 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Exceptionalism on 08/11/2011 19:47:28 MDT Print View

"Exceptionalism isn't limited to America;" Now we're getting somewhere, David. But if "Exceptionalism" isn't limited to America, just what is it that makes our exceptionalism superior to others' exceptionalism?

David Goodyear
(dmgoody) - MLife

Locale: mid-west
so what is your solution - more spending? on 08/11/2011 19:59:28 MDT Print View

Come on, you guys backpack and make gear evaluations. Cut unwanted items...improve each piece of gear based on function, performance and weight.

Relate that to gov't spending. it is not that difficult. Ok, who came up with idiotic notion of baseline budgeting? A 7% increase per year is a zero baseline and any decrease in this is a budget cut...yeah right. I don't think my wife will go for this in my gear budget.

Why can’t we examine each gov't program for results and efficiencies? Once a program - always a program. We can lighten this backpack also.

Why are there career politicians? Don't seem to represent the people. We can lighten this pack also.

Enjoy

Dave

(Tom, you still don't get it..superiority is not part of it. If we all do the best we can do instead of settling for "gov"t work - we will all be better, have better products and more innovation. Competition is good, it is just that we have been put on the couch by gov't interference and have been watching reality TV for a while)

Edited by dmgoody on 08/11/2011 20:01:06 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Afghan Kool Aid on 08/11/2011 20:12:00 MDT Print View

"On another note, could you expand on the contents of the Afghan Kool Aid?"

Down through the millenia Afghanistan, due to its geographic location, has been the target of invaders seeking to either use it as a corridor to invade India(e.g. Alexander the Great, the Mongols, various Turks), gain access to warm water ports(Russia), keep others from invading their Indian colony and foiling the Russians push for warm water ports(Britain), and lately they US(nominally to destroy al Qaaida, but strategically to gain bases from which to monitor and potentially attack Pakistan and Iran, as well as project influence into energy rich Central Asia). Of all these invaders, none have succeeded in controlling the Afghans for any length of time. They have learned the hard way to be patient, resourceful, implacable fighters, as we are currently learning to our distress. I think Kipling expressed it best: "When you're lyin' there wounded on Afghanistan's plains
and the women come out to cut up what remains
roll o'er to yer rifle an' blow out your brains
and go to yer Gawd like a soldier"

The same can be said of the Iraqis, and the ill advised invasions of these two countries has contributed in no small measure to our current dire fiscal straits. And we have yet to experience the true long term costs in terms of treating the hundreds of thousands of grievously wounded soldiers, the majority of whom have no visible wounds but suffer from PTSD and other psychological damage. Only part of that cost will be borne directly by the US Government in treatment programs. The rest will be borne by society at large as these men and women try to reintegrate into civilian society and become decent husbands, wives, fathers, and mothers, and fail. Drug use, domestic violence, child abuse, inability to hold a job, and so on. A more careful reading of history, a better understanding of the cultures of the peoples there, and a decent respect for their intelligence, resourcefulness, and resolve in the face of a technologically superior invader might have prevented this disastrous outcome.

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: so what is your solution - more spending? on 08/11/2011 20:27:16 MDT Print View

Why can’t we examine each gov't program for results and efficiencies? Once a program - always a program. We can lighten this backpack also.

Most suspect that EPA, OSHA, and the like will be targeted as political enemies, with deep cuts resulting in very little cost savings ( but likely high externalities), but miraculously saving the budget. As a country we need to handle on our present and future health costs (private, Medicare, Obamacare, Romneycare, or even Ryancare); unless the Tea Party can address this spending (future and even current) in a meaningful way, IMHO they are just peeing in the direction of a category V hurricane in terms of budget (or any party).

ADD: getting rid of Medicare doesn't seem an option palatable to most voters at the present, though they may be up for some common sense but massive cost-cutting. Think most Americans are practical.

Edited by hknewman on 08/11/2011 20:35:37 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: so what is your solution - more spending? on 08/11/2011 20:33:05 MDT Print View

"Tom, you still don't get it..superiority is not part of it. If we all do the best we can do instead of settling for "gov"t work - we will all be better, have better products and more innovation. Competition is good, it is just that we have been put on the couch by gov't interference and have been watching reality TV for a while)"

Actually I "get it" just fine, Dave. I just don't agree with your simplistic argument that the government is at the root of all our problems, or with your implication that it is liberal Democratic administrations who are solely responsible for the expansion of the role of government and government spending. There are places where the government could be cut back or made more efficient, to be sure, but in an increasingly complex society government must of necessity expand to keep things from spinning out of control and prevent a small minority from taking unfair advantage of the majority of the population. This is ultimately a recipe for social unrest. In addition, the vast majority of people, Democrat and Republican alike, have come to expect expanded government serices such as Medicare and Social Security, witness the reaction to Ryan's plan to privatize Medicare or Bush's attempt to privatize Social Security. When it comes to expanding government, BTW, Bush the Younger presided over one of the biggest expansions ever, Homeland Security accompanied by an unprecedented expansion of government intrusion into citizens' private lives.

It wasn't government interference that "put us on the couch" either. A lot of people are on the couch because businesses have either moved the jobs overseas or imported cheaper labor to take the jobs here, and not just in agriculture. It is also increasingly the case with the trades and in the software industry, not to mention research institutions. I could make a good case for more government regulation to prevent this kind of behavior and preserve jobs for our own people, ditto for more government regulation of education to truly prepare our kids for those "high tech jobs of the future" that increasingly go to better educated foreigners, either here or overseas

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Doug on 08/11/2011 20:36:22 MDT Print View

"Hey Kat P, does it bug you when someone uses the same word twice in hyperbole fashion?"

What bothers me is that it reads " Cat pee"

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Doug on 08/11/2011 20:37:18 MDT Print View

"What bothers me is that it reads " Cat pee"


LOL

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Doug on 08/11/2011 20:46:10 MDT Print View

"What bothers me is that it reads " Cat pee""

Hey, it's your screen name! ;-)

Jeff Spradling
(Spratz) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: so what is your solution - more spending? on 08/11/2011 21:46:23 MDT Print View

"A 7% increase per year is a zero baseline and any decrease in this is a budget cut...

Why can’t we examine each gov't program for results and efficiencies?

Why are there career politicians?"

Good points, Dave. What happened to Obama's plan to do just that? He said, "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way."

Just one of his many unfulfilled promises. "We will continue to work toward an unmatched level of transparency, participation and accountability across the entire administration." HA! Why can't we audit the Fed?

I'm no Bush fan, either. I'm sick of ALL the career politicians. We need common sense solutions, common sense regulations, and term limits on ALL politicians AND appointees, including the Supreme Court.

The Ryan plan was a decent start. A balanced budget amendment is a good idea. So is eliminating the regulations that prevent Insurance companies from offering health insurance across state lines, and requiring that they insure every single possible health issue whether you need it or not.

Lots of ways to scale back the size, scope and reach of government.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Name on 08/11/2011 21:49:33 MDT Print View

Well, I had picked just Kat and I had some problems with the account. Then Addie emailed me that user names had to be longer than 3 letters and she had changed it to the current name.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
. on 08/11/2011 21:57:01 MDT Print View

.

Edited by kthompson on 08/11/2011 22:01:47 MDT.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Re: Re: RE: Hi, I am a Tea Partier on 08/12/2011 11:15:56 MDT Print View

"The vids are funny, to be sure. But if more people acted like the Tea Partiers perhaps we could stop the decades long slide this country has been in and start to 'right the ship' again."

No, Doug, that is just a myth! No one is saying we should just continue borrowing and spending. TPyers are saying we should cut back. So far so good. But cut back on what? Welfare. OK, good, but cutting welfare ain't gonna solve our annual trillion dollar deficit, never mind paying back the $14 trillion already owed. TPyers don't want to cut Medicare (cause it benefits them never mind the socialistic nature) or defense (cause they are insecure never mind that we are already spending more than the next 17 highest spending countries combined. Funny how NO TPyers advocate getting rid of income tax benefits on mortgage interest or property tax payments -- again benefits cherished by largely middle and upper class TPyers! And if we are spending so much and not just on welfare, how about taking the middle road and raise some taxes? Absolutely not -- cause TPyers don't want to contribute one iota more.

So, Doug, cutting back is right. But these TPyers are high on emotions, high on self righteousness, and pitifully low on intellect. Worse, they are also low on fairness! Follow the TPyers and you will NOT begin to solve "the decades long slide this country has been in and start to 'right the ship' again". Not a ghost of a chance.

A better idea? Seriously cut welfare, defense, and the myriad of subsidies and tax benefits to special interests. And plug the remaining gap with tax increases -- after we have seriously identified on all cuts. In other words, ignore the demands of both the extreme left and the extreme right (including the idiotic, "angry" TPyers)!

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Hi, I am a Tea Partier on 08/12/2011 12:24:20 MDT Print View

Well said Ben

Only minor thing is there isn't very much spent on welfare. Clinton "ended welfare as we know it".

If you include Medicaid - that's been falling behind inflation and it's now difficult to provide medical care with Medicaid payments. We need to address this which will probably cost. Or do you just want people that can't afford it to "don't get sick and if you do, die quickly".

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Hi, I am a Tea Partier on 08/12/2011 12:48:51 MDT Print View

Why do we expect Congress and the White House to fix our problems? All of these elected officials have one goal in mind:

- Funnel as much tax dollars or benefits to their supporters.

Doesn't matter which party or group you support. They all have this objective, so don't get blinded by the smoke and mirrors that they are really concerned about making the best decisions for the country.

Maybe our voting strategy should be to vote out ALL the incumbents next election and send a message that the days of a career politician are over. Maybe that would shake up the system. It doesn't seem that the 10% approval rating in Congress is doing any good.

my two cents (well maybe 1.5 cents in this economy) worth

Brad

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Vote 'em out on 08/12/2011 14:09:43 MDT Print View

"- Funnel as much tax dollars or benefits to their supporters.

Doesn't matter which party or group you support. They all have this objective, so don't get blinded by the smoke and mirrors that they are really concerned about making the best decisions for the country.

Maybe our voting strategy should be to vote out ALL the incumbents next election and send a message that the days of a career politician are over."

+1