@ Hartley - "I think the GOP will use them for what they are worth and dump them in a big hurry as 2012 approaches."

I wish that I agreed with you, I really do. I do agree with Dean on Michelle Bachman ("People like Michele Bachmann simultaneously leave me rolling with laughter and scare the living hell out of me.") But I live in Texas, where Rick Perry has been governor since 2000 and he only scares the living hell out of me, with no accompanying laughter. He's the prototypical Tea Partier without Bachman's brains, and he's got a great chance of being our next President. The Tea Party taking over the GOP, not vice versa. I'm not laughing at all.

Richard

"To my very core I'm opposed to an American theocracy."

We've already got one, Cher Acrosome. The Almighty Dollar is God and the theocrats reign from their temples on Wall Street.

"He's the prototypical Tea Partier without Bachman's brains"

For a second there I thought you were discussing Sarah Palin.

I think the IQ Test was the only test that she ever scored 100 on.

--B.G.--

"The Tea Party taking over the GOP, not vice versa. I'm not laughing at all."

That's gotta be every Democrat's wet dream.

It is funny to see the same liberal arguments and all of the class warfare rhetoric repeated at nauseum.

"pay their fair share" - which is what? how much money do you want to confiscate from the job creators? - yes. most people and corporations are job creators and they exist to make money - yes money is not a bad thing. Already the top 10% pay 90 % of the taxes. - do you need it to be 98%. 51% of the population pay no net income tax. Is it wrong to want to work hard and enjoy the fruits of your labors, or should we let the gov't decide how much cheese we get. What would that do for motivation? Ok, here is a test. If you believe that gov't is the answer to all problems and that we need to redistribute all of the wealth and close all of the legal tax exemptions (loopholes for the liberal minds) - then did you take any deductions on last year's taxes? Did you use the home mortgage loophole, the child deduction loophole, the charity loophole or did you put your money where your mouth is and just sign it and give the gov't the maximum.....I didn’t think so...so why should anyone else. As Margaret Thatcher said " the problem with socialism is that at some point you run out of other people’s money"


"the gov't can create jobs through spending" What, the govt' does not create jobs, because it takes someone’s money to give to someone else and does not produce a product. What happened to all of the last 3 stimulus bills? Where did all of the money go? Where are all of the jobs? If you dig deep - you will find that a lot of this money was used as pay-offs for gov't cronies. This mindset made the great depression last longer than it should have.

"Let's go back to the tax rates of the Clinton years" you forgot to mention that the tech boom and bubble helped increase revenues to the state and that the balanced budget did more to stabilize the economy. Clinton actually worked with congress instead of blaming them. I think that the Carter years have more in common to what is happening today- massive spending, wild out of control printing of monies and a president with no clue. Should I mention that when Regan and Bush cut taxes the revenues to the gov’t increased…hmm

"I think the Tea Party has been captured by the right wingers David Koch funds at least one of the big Tea Party organizations" These are the most hilarious statements. The liberal media has tried very hard to put a negative face on the tea party. Their main problem has been that there is no central leader. This is a grass roots organization that believes in decreasing the size of government, cutting gov't spending and reinstating the constitution. They are disliked by the big spenders in both parties. Please read more than the Huffington post - the truth will set you free!

The only way to change the course that we are on is to elect conservative people. People who have balanced a checkbook and run a business or a family. People who know that the best gov't is one that stays out of the way and thus bringing back American exeptionalism. (and yes I have heard the "robber Barron" argument and believe me there is plenty of gov't regulation )

I know this will not be popular with the so called "educated" folk and members of the ruling class, but this is chaff

Enjoy,

Dave

"Take a look at Greece and tell me we aren't headed there. These are the reasons the Tea Party came together."

I was on a long hike recently (I really should write a TR), and in my solo musings I started laughing that the populace in the birthplace of democracy is virtually unfit to govern themselves, what with the riots that break out whenever austerity measures look like they'll pass. Leaders there can't win, because by working for the long term solvency of their country they won't get reelected, but working for their own reelection will continue the country's horrible financial cycle.

It seems to me that this short-term bias in leadership priorities is a major point of failure for democracies. Still, democracy is better than the alternatives.

(and I know, in Greece's case and in ours, the populace has a really solid argument in favor of their protests against cuts in social spending or unrealistically sweet employment/unemployment/retirement packages: "The government promised them to us." I don't have a well-composed counter argument, but I am reminded of the USSR's failure to deliver on their promise to take care of everyone, and of China's gradual transition away from the 'Iron Rice Bowl' towards a freer market in which folks are more responsible for themselves. Neither of those were fun transitions, and it surely sucks to be caught unprepared for the switch in social contract.)

"Should I mention that when Regan and Bush cut taxes the revenues to the gov’t increased…hmm"

Probably you shouldn't have, because the deficit was 5.73 trillion dollars when G. W. Bush took office and 10.63 trillion when he left. This would imply that revenue didn't increase as fast as his administration pi$$ed it away, mostly on two ill considered disastrous wars and an underfunded Medicare drug program.

Edited to include the Medicare drug program.

"the best gov't is one that stays out of the way and thus bringing back American exeptionalism."

What exactly do you mean by American exceptionalism? That we are somehow superior to the rest of humanity? Take a good, long look around you and then go out into the world and do the same. When you get back we can have an informed discussion about American "exceptionalism".

Edited by ouzel on 08/11/2011 17:01:53 MDT.

"I am reminded of the USSR's failure to deliver on their promise to take care of everyone, and of China's gradual transition away from the 'Iron Rice Bowl' towards a freer market in which folks are more responsible for themselves. Neither of those were fun transitions, and it surely sucks to be caught unprepared for the switch in social contract.)"

The Soviets failed to deliver in large part because they engaged in a ruinous arms race with us and drank the Afghan Kool Aid, which resulted in an inability to deliver on their promise. While we crowed over the fall of The Evil Empire, it passed unnoticed that this period was the beginning of the massive increase in our own national debt. We have continued to spend massive amounts on our military, more than the next 10 nations combined,IIRC, and have drunk deeply of the Afghan Kool Aid, washed down with an Iraqi chaser. We also have military bases in over 140 countries and are the world's number 1 exporter of arms. At the same time there has been a massive redistribution of wealth upward into the hands of a very small percentage of the US population, millions are unemployed, our education and infrastructure systems are a shambles, and our own government, at all levels, is tottering on the brink of insolvency. Those who once ran The Evil Empire must take grim satisfaction as they enjoy the spectacle of America following in their footsteps down the path to ruin. Such has always been the fate of empires. "Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it". George Santayana. Edited to add "not"

Edited by ouzel on 08/11/2011 19:48:03 MDT.

I knew something was missing.

I just couldn't put my finger on it.

Come to realize we've been without American exeptionalism (sic) all this time.

No wonder I've only been feeling pretty good or adequate or just fair-to-middlin'.

Edited by DaveT on 08/11/2011 17:06:10 MDT.

That's all you got out the entire post. I must be losing my touch.

Yes, Regan was a conservative and brought the country back from the damage of the Carter years.(I am old enough to remember) He cut taxes and decreased the size of gov't. Numbers don't lie...look it up. The Bush tax cuts save the economy after 9-11, but he was not a conservative and spent like a drunken democrat. He instituted very large entitlement programs - no child left behind and Medicare part D...oh yes and the first tarp was on him also.

American exceptionalism - it is sad that you can’t fathom this. It is not about ego. I'll let you stew on it.


Enjoy

Dave

Bush had the White House. He had the House of Reps. He had the Senate. Heck, he even had the Supreme Court. And he inherited one of the best economies ever. How many balanced budgets did he have? Zero. His tax cuts make it impossible. And the prophet Reagan? Also zero. Name the last Republican to do so. You will need google probably. You can't have low taxes, big defense, and take care of people all at the same time. Looking at the numbers, we can probably only do one of them. If the tea party gets in, the the one will be low taxes (and probably defense too). Then they will get their revolution.

"For a second there I thought you were discussing Sarah Palin.

I think the IQ Test was the only test that she ever scored 100 on."

Suffice it to say that Perry makes his distinguished predecessor as governor, George W. Bush, look like a Rhodes Scholar. Perry's undergraduate transcript was published recently, couple of Bs, mostly Cs, several Ds, at that bastion of academic excellence, Texas A & M University. There's a special category of joke here in Texas called Aggie jokes. For a reason. But Perry's no joke, unfortunately. He has all the Tea Party credentials, comes from an important state, has great hair, and does well at prayer meetings. Just the kind of guy who's very likely to win the nomination in a party that's already falling over itself to kow-tow to the Tea Party.

And the 2012 presidential election (like the 2008 presidential election) will turn on the economy in general and job creation in particular, and I don't have to tell you where we're likely to be on those subjects if the two parties can barely agree on a no-brainer like raising the debt ceiling.

“That's all you got out the entire post.”

Well, other than that bit of exeptional (sic) comedy, it was just the same conservative arguments and all of the business über alles rhetoric repeated at (sic) nauseum.

(On a related note, watch more than Fox News - the truth will set you free!)

How do they fit in with the Tea Party? Maybe some one can produce a Venn diagram.

"While we crowed over the fall of The Evil Empire, it passed unnoticed that this period was the beginning of the massive increase in our own national debt. We have continued to spend massive amounts on our military, more than the next 10 nations combined,IIRC, and have drunk deeply of the Afghan Kool Aid, washed down with an Iraqi chaser. We also have military bases in over 140 countries and are the world's number 1 exporter of arms. At the same time there has been a massive redistribution of wealth upward into the hands of a very small percentage of the US population, millions are unemployed, our education and infrastructure systems are a shambles, and our own government, at all levels, is tottering on the brink of insolvency. Those who once ran The Evil Empire much take grim satisfaction as they enjoy the spectacle of America following in their footsteps down the path to ruin."

All too true Tom, all too true. And we just don't seem to want to learn our lessons. Ever.

I disagree with much of what the tea partiers stand for, and, unfortunately, far too many of them are simply the same old hypocritical, greedy, christian-spouting but not christian-acting folk (that jesus, he must have been all about keeping what's his and letting the poor and disabled fend for themselves if you take our many 'christian' examples in this country).

But there is one area, in my opinion, in which many, many of us could follow the tea partier lead. They stopped settling for the lesser of two evils and instead supported and elected very different politicians, not the usual cast of characters. It's really screwed up the country at the moment, yes, but that's a necessary side effect of true change.

Far, far too many of the American voting public simply settles every election cycle. Gonna vote Dem because the Repubs are bad people. Gonna vote Repub because the Dems are bad people. No sense in actually thinking for ourselves, that's too much trouble. No sense in actually doing a bit of research on candidates, 30-second sound bites will do. Besides, ain't got time, gotta catch [insert reality TV show or sporting event here]. So we keep getting the same-old, same-old, and nothing changes. It really doesn't matter much who is in power, the military continues to grow, military contractors continue to get rich through both legal and illegal means, our education and infrastructure systems continue to deteriorate, the massive redistribution of wealth goes on unabated. Under both Dem and Repub administrations/congresses. We just don't get that the lesser of two evils is still evil.

At least the tea partiers are really attempting to affect real change. If the rest of us stopped settling and did the same, we might actually get the country we think we deserve. But we don't, we settle, we vote, as I've said before, our fears and our hatreds and our intolerance and our ignorance, and we do get the country we deserve.

It sucks being so cynical, yes, but it's a learned response.......

Hartley, you're looking for a neat, tidy group. The tea party ain't one. While it's a fair bet that the vast, vast majority of them are conservative (Hey Kat P, does it bug you when someone uses the same word twice in hyperbole fashion? Just curious....). Tea partiers are across the spectrum, from moderates to crazies. Birthers are simply a fringe crazy group of haters. They can't help themselves. So no real, in my opinion, mesh.

This is a difficult concept for liberals to understand because they believe that gov't is the answer to all problems.

Every industry and endeavor that the gov't tries to regulate or "run" is a disaster. We lose the desire to be exceptional. The products we produce are inferior and the work ethic is pathetic. if gov't steps aside and let's the market forces take over, innovation and exceptionalism abound.

Exceptionalism isn't limited to America; we have just lost it with gov't takeovers.

Pick a topic that the gov't has taken over.... Education - how are we doing? Industry - how many are left?...Banking - don't get me started. FEMA...churches and private organizations are faster and more thorough.

See no ego, just be the best you can be. Work your butt off. Enjoy the fruits of your labors. Gov't get out of the way. (do we really need 30,000 new regulations per year?)

Enjoy,

Dave

Lack of government regulation caused the BP oil spill in the gulf, the coal mine collapse that killed 11 (?) people in Kentucky (?), and the financial collapse, to name a few.

In each case, industry corrupted government regulators which enabled the companies to do dangerous things that resulted in disasters

Education including universities were largely public from the end of WWII until about 1980, and resulted in a boom in high tech that we're all enjoying now. Starting about 1980 the right wingers have degraded education but it would be possible to come back

Highways, police, fire, the military, social security, have all been pretty good, but recently have gone down in quality

If the right wingers idea is that the government is incompetent to do anything, and they're in charge of the government, then they will fullfill their evil ideas

And when private companies take over, like Enron, they can screw up things worse than the government, but a bunch of people make out with huge profits

I don't think you're one of the people that has profitted, unless your name is Koch or Walton - you've been conned man - quit listening to the propoganda

"That's all you got out the entire post. I must be losing my touch."

I don't think you've lost your touch at all. It's just that I didn't find much else worth replying to.

"Yes, Regan was a conservative and brought the country back from the damage of the Carter years.(I am old enough to remember) He cut taxes and decreased the size of gov't. Numbers don't lie...look it up."

I'm old enough to remember, too, and I looked it up just to be sure. Now let's see whose memory is better. Reagan increased the national debt by $1.692 trillion, almost tripled it-not bad for a cost cutting conservative. Rumor has it that a lot of tax and spend Democrats were livid that he had beaten them at their own game. Reagan also increased the defense budget by 26%. He cut some discretionary spending, but I wouldn't say he exactly shrank the size of government. It is a mystery how government can shrink and have the national debt almost triple at the same time. Maybe you could enlighten me on that score?

"He instituted very large entitlement programs - no child left behind and Medicare part D...oh yes and the first tarp was on him also."

Oh, the shame of it all. Imagine a Republican trying to take care of kids and old folks. Will you guys ever get over it?

"American exceptionalism - it is sad that you can’t fathom this. It is not about ego. I'll let you stew on it."

Some things are just too deep for me to wrap my head around unaided. Maybe you could explain to me just exactly how we are exceptional? Seriously. I feel like I'm in over my head here.

Here's a source of non-partisan sanity regarding the fiscal debate:

http://tcaii.org/Default.aspx

Set up by David Walker, former Comptroller General of the United States and head of the Government Accountability Office (GAO) from 1998 to 2008.