Yes, it's that same annoying topic. I know that there are many who say that these are superfluous, but circumstances are such
that I will be backpacking with gortex lined boots, which, if they get wet inside, stay wet. My primary concern is crossing
streams. Double-dutying as a camp shoe is nice, but secondary. I've poured over the forums and have come up pretty empty handed.

I'm looking for something which is likely to stay on my feet during a stream crossing, provide some minimal traction, and ideally
could be used with conventional socks in camp (this rules out any flip-flop design).

There are the sprint aquatics shoe (which many say is not suitable for stream crossings). There are the zemgear neoprene
socks with some kind of sole. They sound attractive, but once neoprene gets wet, its weight increases substantially--
and they take a long time to dry out.

Tried Waldies and Crocs (too wide and not that light). As things stand, I found sandals that weigh 10oz for the pair.
I was really hoping to find something a few ounces lighter. Any practical suggestions?

Thanks,

rhz

In my research, you need small feet to get the light shoes etc. A couple years ago, I sent some racing flats back because they were only an oz. or so lighter than my large Crocs, so not worth the money at the time. Maybe when I get something to replace the Crocs. Misleading when the manufacturer states the weight but does not tell you for what size. My experience, they are giving the weight for a mens size 6.

Duane

Hi Rafi,
In my BPL way of thinking, these 2 sentences just don’t go together:
-“I will be backpacking with gortex lined boots, which, if they get wet inside, stay wet.”
-“I'm looking for something [additional] which is likely to stay on my feet during a stream crossing, provide some minimal traction, and ideally could be used with conventional socks in camp”

I added the word ‘additional’.

It sounds like you’re going out in winter all day below freezing. In that case, the streams will be frozen over. Thus you won’t need additional footwear.

If you’re out in 3 season hiking, then gortex lined boots are hard and sometimes damaging on the feet. Then may I recommend your river crossing footwear be your hiking footwear (if it’s durable enough)?

Sorry, I don’t understand your scenario or where you will be hiking.

-Barry

The mountains were made for Tevas :)

Rafi -

Unless your feet are larger than size 11, go with the Sprint Aquatics (their sizing runs small). I use the Aquatics for stream crossings and camp shoes, and for me they work great. I added a second thin layer of foam as kind of a insole, and it makes the shoes more comfortable and gives more protection from sharp rocks and sticks. My first pair is going on their third season and they're holding up fine.

I'm still on the same quest and have been for some time.

I just got a pair of the Sprint Aquatics, and I wouldn't recommend them for swift moving water, they are pretty (OK, very) flimsy. It also seems like the soles don't have the best traction, for either streams or around camp (if you have to walk any steep slopes, say to get water). They are really light and compact, though, and don't hold much water.

I ruled out all the neoprene stuff because they hold onto water too well, and many don't have enough of a sole to provide protection for crossing swift streams with bigger rocks.

I had high hopes for the Teva Zilch's but they were uncomfortable for me...and I hate the toe loop.

I am toying with the minimalist trail runners, kind of like the racing flats, which I think would be really great for streams, not the best in accommodating (warm) socks around camp, and a bit heavy for a redundant piece of footwear. That or using lightweight trail runners as my primary footwear and using them for stream crossings, then using the MYOG blue foam slip ons (or Sprints) for around camp.

I still think this is a niche that needs to be filled...so I assume we will be back at it again before long...

Edited by IPARider on 08/02/2011 08:32:07 MDT.

Hi Barry,

Well, I currently have a pair of relatively heavy but very stable boots for a Sierra trip two weeks from now. I don't really have time to do the research to find a lighter pair of stable trail runners that I could use instead (including stream crossings). I'm also a little concerned about whether my ankles are strong enough to rely on trail runners in the mountains.

So the stream crossing shoe is a stop gap measure until I'm able to find a lighter alternative that is stable and suitable for stream crossings. Not sure what that alternative would look like. Since I'm coming from heavy boots, I think that the transition to ultralight trail runners would be too drastic....

Thanks,

rhz.

They are discontinued and I can't find the large size anywhere. :(
If anyone finds some please let me know.

"I'm also a little concerned about whether my ankles are strong enough to rely on trail runners in the mountains."



After a systematic review of 113 studies on ankle injuries, Thacker et al. (1999) concluded that “the use of high-top shoes alone does not appear to reduce the risk of ankle sprain” (Apgar, 2000). Thus, there is no conclusive evidence that high top footwear alone prevents ankle injury.


Thacker SB, et al. (1999). The prevention of ankle sprains in sports. A systematic review of the literature. Am J Sports Med, 27, 753-60.

Apgar, B. (2000). Methods of Preventing Ankle Sprains in Athletes. American Family Physician. May 15, 2000.

@ tommy, I don't think hes talking about injuries, more long term discomfort and soreness. I never liked boots and hiked for years in classic vans. My ankles built up around that and now if I try and wear anything with arches, it is awkward and makes my ankles hurt. So I am assuming it works the other way around. With those shoes, I might ass well have been walking barefoot, if you don't consider the conditioning of the bottom of my feet.

I really like my new Merrell Trail Gloves for camp shoes. I crossed streams in them with no problem and had good sure footing with the grippy vibram sole. I wanted something more substantial than flip flops and they are light enough at about 7 ounces.

Edited by dennx on 08/03/2011 00:14:58 MDT.

Justin - I think it's time that responsible backpackers stop perpetuating the myth that high-top boots "protect ankles" from pain or injury. At this time, there's simply no evidence to support that claim. If a person is able to walk around town or in a park with sneakers, then there's no reason they can't use that same pair of footwear or something similar while backpacking.

Here is a camp shoe I made, I crossed evolution meadows crossing, waist deep on the JMT, they folded in the front due to strong current, they could be improved upon. They cost me $2.00 to make and are disposable. I love camp shoes, nothing like taking your boots/trail runners off at camp and throwing on a pair of 0.8 oz camp shoes.

Thank you Dennis, that might work. Never heard of them. With a lighter bp, trail runners work great for me. I still get a big blister on the bottom of my feet though, but not heel blisters. Those .4 oz things are too minimal, I need something to walk around in that has traction for climbing banks to retrieve water or fish in, scouting around after camp is set up. Off I go after work to Lone Pine.

Duane

I love my Merrell Trail Gloves. After breaking my feet into them, so to speak, I can't imagine ever going back to a boot, let alone a mid. I've experienced no blisters or rubbing of any kind, only some pain when I pushed my feet too far when they weren't ready yet (my fault, and I knew better).

It does take some time to get used to them--if you're not accustomed to such minimal shoes--and if you push it, it's going to hurt. But the time taken (a few miles at a time, increasing a bit with each walk) is worth it. Granted you do have to watch your footing a little more, as the little sharp stones will get you; the Vibram bottom grip fairly well, except for when rock surfaces or the shoe bottoms are only "damp." (ie: It's a bit safer, IMO, to walk through the water than to walk atop those wet, mossy rocks at the water's surface.)


Especially on a warm day, it's great to walk right through the water and keep on going...

Just checked out the Trail Gloves on REI website. They are heavier than my Crocs and that is only for the weight of a size 9, which REI specs show as 14 oz. for the pair. I wear size 10.5 and the large Crocs which are 11 oz. I think.

Duane

Hi Kaleb

I thought about flip flops of the type you use, but they're not convenient with socks (unless you modify them) and I was concerned that they'd fly off my feet while crossing a stream.

Glad they work for you though!

rhz

Yep, mine weigh 15oz for size 11, but I still like them for camp shoes. I wear Salomon XA PRO 3D MID GTX® ULTRA shoes to hike in.

Edited by dennx on 08/03/2011 10:49:36 MDT.

I was looking at those homemade flipflops and was thinking you could make a sandal out of the same types of materials with a strap going over the top of the foot instead of coming up through the toes and then have another strap wrapping around the heel in a similar design to a Croc to keep it from slipping off. Just a thought...

You could use an insole and put holes in and use some kind of cording to use for the support. Jeremy Pendrey has made some and they look great. Their are photos somewhere around here

Rafi,
Here’s an idea that I tried about 8 years ago. Carry your regular hiking boots in your pack. In fact it’s lighter in your pack than on your foot. Wear some decent stream crossing footwear the whole time. In my case it was the Teva Hurricane sandals (now I wear the Tera Fi).

After about 3 trips, I finally realized I never wore my boots and never wore them since. And it dawned on me:
1. I have better traction than with my vibram-soled boots.
2. I have better ankle support (i.e. harder to twist ankles) with sandals than with boots! But that’s the way Teva’s are made.
3. I was able to walk on wet sloping granite
4. Athlete’s foot was totally eliminated.
5. I could wear thin or super thick socks depending on temperature so my footwear could handle 30F to 120F.
6. I could leave them outside my tent in the rain and put on clean sandals in the morning.
7. If I get muddy, a dip in the creak cleaned them off.
8. They dry so fast.
9. No more cracked prune skin (in all-day swampy/rainy environments)
10. No more hammer toe. Yea!
11. No foot smell.
12. My Tera Fi’s work very well on talus; feels like a foot massage.

The key with teva sandals (for me) is:
1. Wear fast-wicking socks (prevents blisters and smell)
2. Cinch ‘em tight when hiking and loosen when stopped
3. Make sure the arch is centered (via the back strap)
4. Buy them about 3/8” longer. This prevents toe stubs.
5. Don’t get a closed toe sandal. You’ll be dumping out rocks and sand all the time as it gets caught at the toes.

I can’t handle what is called the minimalist shoe. I need cushy heals, supportive arch, and total temperature insulation from the ground. It makes for a pleasant trip in the mountains, even off trail. I skipped the shoe backpacking and went straight from boots to sandals.

May you find your BPL footwear style,
-Barry

The mountains were made for Tevas :)

Check these out. Anyone try these yet? http://www.sockwa.com/
6oz for the pair if I remember right. So not ultralight, but lighter than crocs fo sure.

"It sounds like you’re going out in winter all day below freezing. In that case, the streams will be frozen over."

Actually, quite often you encounter running water in the winter too.

Check this (heavyweight hiking) video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTrBQbOMRt0&feature=player_profilepage#t=648s

(A lot of nice hiking videos by the same uploader - too bad the language is in finnish. BTW, that guy crossing the stream is 78 year old.)

Anyway, I also suggest taking fast drying trail runners etc. low shoes and putting goretexes on the pack. Maybe Columbia Drainmakers as long as it's non-winter time of the year?

I usually use neoprene fin socks. There are many types.
3mm low top is usually what I prefer.

Reasonably light.
Insulate from cold water, makes good river crossing shoe and a sock replacement when the trail is wet and cold.

They have good traction and do not slip on wet rocks the way crocks and other camp shoes do.

They're OK as a camp shoe, but don't have much of a sole. So sharp objects can penetrate.

They do not breath and can get smelly if used for long periods without washing.

Edited by brooklynkayak on 08/18/2011 13:31:19 MDT.

Hello Antti,
Beautiful video. I’ve been in situations where I’m hiking in snow with my sandals. I wear wool and seal skinz socks in those instances. But at a running creek like the one shown, that’s the only time in my life I go sockless; other times I leave the sock on.

So, I take off the socks, put the sandal back on; cross the cold creek. It’s a little shocking. Then I immediately dry off my feet and put my 2 layers of socks back on and then it feels like an instant heater. Ooh awh. I continue trekking and my feet never knew they went through a cold creek.

Happy trekking,
-Barry

The mountains were made for Tevas :)

nothing to fear from trail runners :) if you're reducing your weight on your back it only makes sense that you reduce it on your feet as well

I'm willing to bet almost all of us came from a boot background (the heavier the better in the "good old days"!), we're still all just fine after switching to trail runners, probably finer than if we stuck w/ our heavy boots

find a pair that fits well and give them a go, I can't recall anyone ever posting that they couldn't stand lightweight trail runners and were going back to boots

with them stream crossings become nothing more than insuring you stay upright, no slow down of changing/unchanging shoes- you simply cross

after a trip where we made 100+ stream crossing in two days, I was thoroughly convinced that well fitting trail runners and good socks are all that is needed

Mike C in his NOLS classes takes the very first opportunity at a stream crossing to convince his students that getting your feet wet is not the end of the world, pretty soon they figure out he is right :)

Those Sockwa shoes kinda sound like fin socks with a hard sole.

Hmmm...

I just received my Sockwa Amphibians in the mail.
Quick shipping, they seem well made, they are very grippy and have a pretty tough sole. So I think they will be excellent for river crossings and are comfortable enough for camp shoes. They do still have that barefoot feeling, so I don't think they would work well for actual hiking.

I wear a size 10, but the site mentions they run small, so I ordered size 11. Turns out they are a tiny bit too big, but still okay.

Only downside is that they weighed in at 8 ounces for the pair on my kitchen scale.
Half the weight of crocs, but not quite ultralight.

On my bp trip into Sequoia NP in CA, I lost one of my Crocs in the Kern River when it got stuck I guess in the rocks, so when I went to take a step, off if came and away it went downstream. Barefoot or trailrunners the rest of the trip for crossings. Only had to do that once the rest of the trip.

Duane

One of the most dangerous activities a backpacker deals with is fording a river. Hikers are swept away on river crossings every season. Here is a video demonstrating the basic technique for an individual in deep water and with a heavy load. While there are many ways that can be employed for a ford this video shows the most common and accepted technique as described in the book Freedom of the Hills published by The Mountaineers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XbRRD6zewk

After using a 4 oz. pair of neoprene dive sox with soles for several years, settled on a 5 oz. pair of Zems for camp shoes, partly because the Zem soles are stiffer and protect my feet better from rocks.

But the switch to Zems was mostly due to the realization that any flimsy booty is not suitable for many river and stream crossings. You need something well connected to the foot, and with a sole thick and cleaty enough to allow you to keep upright without pain as you go wading through deep water over sharp and unstable rocks (and maybe broken glass or metal) in a strong current.

The only thing I've seen on these threads that works, as a light alternative to hiking footwear, is a very light pair of running shoes. There was a post about a pair under 8 oz on one of the threads, but sorry, I forgot the name. Maybe one of the Asics.

I just don't want to carry the extra half pound or more, so do the crossings in my hiking shoes. BTW, even with the WPB liner, the hiking shoes dry quickly while hiking in the sunshine. It helps a lot to swab them out and change sox after the crossing, but pointless if there are a lot of crossings.

If I were going to hike in temperatures at or below freezing, I would definitely carry the extra weight of the running shoes to keep my primary footwear dry and warm.
"Lord, I waded through deep water, tryin' to get home." - The late Rev. Gary Davis

I got my croc knockoffs down to 10 oz for the 11 oz or so (not exactly sure) pair by sanding down some of the foam, particularly in the heels. Can't say it was worth it though. I'm one of those rare birds around here that converted to boots after using tennis shoes for a long time--just killed my feet on long hikes--so an ultralight camp shoe is definitely on my list of things to get one day.