I am wondering what the consensus is on carrying a firearm while backpacking? I am new to this and I was curious what other people do. The area I am in does have a black bear population, copperheads and rattlesnakes and I was considering taking a Bersa 380 with me, mainly for the noise but also just in case.
West Virginia allows open carries of firearms. For concealed carry you need a permit.
So how many of you guys are packing when you are packing?

I believe it is not common anywhere but Alaska.

I have a feeling this is gonna be fun

Mr Ide, can I borrow your chair?

No, this gets ugly every time.

Please moderators, not again!

This conversation always goes bad. Some do, some don't. Some will, some won't. If you want to, go ahead. Remember that we pack our fears with our gear.

i'll stick my toe in. i am a hunter. so i personally don't have any ethical issue with firearms or using them in a prudent manner. however, for backpacking I can't see that they matter much. a can of bear spray is far more effective statistically in the rare event of a bear attack. It would also work on most any other animal including a human who didn't have their own firearm. My guess is that unless a person has sophisticated military style training that most guns outside of a shotgun or something would be useless to them in a high stress situation. the can of bear spray is much easier. point, wait (that is the key) spray a large area hoping the wind, etc...doesn't hurt you.

if you go the bear spray route test it. i can't imagine having a grizzly close enough to actually use the bear spray, but it does offer some source of protection even if it is just a mental security blanket. as with anything wise choices rule the day.

as far as snakes go i can't see any reason you would need a firearm. we walked up on a decent size copperhead this past weekend. a few sticks and a gentle nudge from a trekking pole and he was on his way. he was the exception to the rule. most feel you coming and move on.

Edited by BeartoothTucker on 07/13/2011 06:34:22 MDT.

I did not mean to stir anything up. MODS please remove this before it heats up.

Are you 'packing' while you're packing
Asked the OP with a grin
The responses were quite tepid
Until Beartooth ambled in

So far no flurry, and no fury
of responses in the thread
Just a bit of trepidation
From the members here instead

So I'll add a thought or two
since the OP wants to know
'bout if I'm 'packing' when I'm packing
And does that 'packing' make me slow

Well I certainly pack my 'package'
And at times it even 'shoots'
It's a gun, says Full Metal Jacket
Though I don't stick it in my boots

I can draw it pretty quickly
But it takes a while to load
I carry it 'open' in the forest
But conceal it on the road

I don't aim it at no snakes or bears
or most people, for that matter
The few times that I've tried it
All the women quickly scatter

So though I pack my package
And, I'm sure, I'm not alone
I've never had a cause to use it
Sometimes I wish I could leave it home

Hope that helps!

Edited by idester on 07/13/2011 07:24:25 MDT.

Doug, you crack me up. I just pmed Roger to let him know Tim was asking politely for this thread to be removed, and then you post that gem. Did you just whip that out, sorry up, now, or have you been working on it for just such an occasion as this?

A poet, and he didn't know it. Not even going to work in a crack about Longfellow.

Tim, this is a great source for info, and great people. However, all the standard buttons of political correctness work overtime here, so you just have to be careful not to push one. And besides, a Bersa weighs too much.

I suspect Douglas packs a Magnum. LOL

I heard he was known as Douglas 'Derringer' Ide.

Apparently that was a pretty cold trip though.

Edited by Rod_Lawlor on 07/13/2011 08:12:45 MDT.

Is that package big or small?
Is it even there at all?
Is it dormant, or actually used?
Handled gently, or quite abused?
Is it under lock and key?
Is it always right with me?
Powerful ammo, or only blanks?
Do you really want to know ----- NO THANKS!

New people to backpacking frequently ask this question. I think it takes a few trips outdoors to see that what you are scared of and what you should be scared of are quite different things. I'd say the number one most dangerous thing you should be worried about is water. Moving water, falling water, sweated out water, hydration water, dirty water, hygiene, ice, and snow.

for me the answer is

YES AND YES but im kinda biased as im an avid shooting sports person and hunter

i have not ever had an issue with this and no one ever knows i have a firearm unless i tell them as i am lucky enough to have a carry permit for my state

i think of it this way

if you are comfortable carrying while backpacking then go for it just make sure you use common sense with the way you handle the firearm as you may be camping with a group and some of them may not be as thrilled about the fact that they are hiking with someone they don t really know who is packing a firearm some people are just not as comfortable with firearms as others hence the reason i do not let anyone know i have mine with me if they happen to ask however i will be honest and tell them that i do have a firearm and am perfectly legal in doing so and that i have a permit to carry concealed and it usually becomes a non issue

i really think that as long as you handle your firearm properly and keep the issue low key you will have no issues with packing while packing

this is only my opinion and im sure some will disagree and some will approve but for me it comes down to what im comfortable with and i decide before every trip what will be the apropriate method of carry for each perticular trip

kevin

What was I scared of?

Officer stops car with tail light out.

Driver hands over officer his concealed weapons permit and informs cop that he is carrying firearm.

Cop says "OK, just keep your hands on steering wheel please"

Cop asks where firearm is.

Driver indicates he is carrying on his waist.

Cop asks if there are any other firearms in vehicle.

Driver says there is also a firearm strapped to his ankle.

Cop asks "Any more?"

Driver indicates there is a sidearm in the glove compartment.

Cop: "Any more?"

Driver: "There is also an AR-15 in the trunk"

Cop: "Any more?"

Driver: "A semi-auto shotgun behind the seat"

Cop: "Any more?"

Driver: "hmm, I guess that's it"

Cop: "If you don't mind my asking, what are you scared of?"

Driver: "ABSOLUTELY Nothing"

"I did not mean to stir anything up. MODS please remove this before it heats up."

Nah, the mods here are good about letting things take care of themselves, without pushing the "good vibe only" thing.
Your question is legitimate, it's just that many here have seen this go south before. Does not mean it can not be brought up again, in my opinion.

i have been stopped while driving and carrying a firearm

i have had nothing but good experiences with the local law enforcement

gave them my permit and they just asked where i was carrying it replied in my waistband on my right hip

they said ok wait here while we run your info and firearm serial # i never excited the car and the officer handed my permit back and said your good to go thank you for telling me about your firarm

that was it no big deal and no one got crazy over it


iguess it depends on who stops you but i haven t run into any hard core anti gun officers yet lol


kevin

Three way shootouts are what I worry about. One on one, I've trained for that. But three ways? Sheesh. How could I ever train enough? Can I get my gun out of the pack fast enough? Who's going to shoot at who first? I have discovered some secrets: it's part a matter of reflexes, part psychology. You have to look your enemy in the eye- the shootout is often won or lost before it's even started. The skilled user of a revolver can actually shoot it faster than a semi-auto.

Three way shootouts are what I worry about.

How can you prepare for this?

Edited by xnomanx on 07/13/2011 10:10:12 MDT.

Craig, that's the difference between still being a young pup and being an old dog. How do you prepare? Why, you read the script, that's how. Never fails......

You tellin' me there's a way to know who's gonna shoot first?

"You tellin' me there's a way to know who's gonna shoot first?"

Kinda spoils the fun, don't it. But at least you stay alive.......

I agree that the things that are likely to kill you in the wilderness are not likely things helped by carrying a gun. Hypothermia, dehydration, injuries, lack of itinerary and exit plans, heat stress, snow and ice, water crossings, driving to the trailhead. It's all risk awareness and mitigation.

And please don't shoot snakes.

oo

Edited by diggity on 04/06/2012 20:44:17 MDT.

Can anybody spot the anachronism in Lee Van Cleef's setup?

""Can anybody spot the anachronism in Lee Van Cleef's setup?""

I think Lee was trying to stay on the lighter side by carrying that cap and ball shooter, but he'd obviously forgotten that reloading it with cartridges would be a little difficult, as well as make that belt a little heavier.

It's like bringing along a 7oz canister for your Caldera 12-10.

Edited by AaronMB on 07/13/2011 11:19:01 MDT.

Um, aren't guns heavy? What are you looking at for weapon and ammunition weight-wise?

(And what is your arming status? Do you hike with a chambered bullet? Clip in the gun?)

"Are you 'packing' while you're packing
Asked the OP with a grin
The responses were quite tepid
Until Beartooth ambled in---"

the idester, STERing things up and putting the "Ide" back in sidearm.

And maybe the "short" back in shortarm.

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/origin-term-short-arm-inspection-t1161.html

Edited by oware on 07/13/2011 12:44:40 MDT.

I have everything under control.
Some wacko pulls a gun on me and i pull out this:

Orignally created as a grizzly bear defence system, my revolutionary patent pending design works equally well on rabid hikers.
The toothbrush scares bears because wel all know they never like to brush their teeth.
I use the tweezers to pull the nose hairs out of the guy aiming a gun at me.. kinda hard to shoot straight with tears in your eyes!
I know.. pure genius.

All my backpacking friends and I are armed when we go out. Many of us are retired military including myself (11B). Some are retired and current law enforcement officers. We are all extensively trained and have CCPs. I carry a loaded .357 with 2 speed loaders in a shoulder holster for easy access. I didn't carry a firearm for many years. However, we now have a lot of meth heads down here that like to cook in our woods not to mention a feral pig population that has exploded. I don't shoot snakes or bears, but I have seen some pigs shot. Fortunately, I have never needed it. But my training tells me that it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Personally, I don't care if it is politically correct. It is my Constitutional right.

"And maybe the "short" back in shortarm."

Thanks for the link, that's priceless! Who says history can't be fun!

I've been backpacking almost 40 years. I've always carried where it was legal. It has come in handy about as many times as my first aid kit. Some people may choose not to carry one of those either.

Seems like I'll continue carrying it. It's my life, my choice, and it affects other people not at all.

And for those asking about weight, 20 oz.

Az

A good percentage of people are armed when in the NE Washington backcountry.

There is a bear or cougar attack at least once a year.

Many already have the firearms, so bring that instead of pepper spray which has fewer other uses and a shelf life.

Washington state is a shall issue state so if you are not a prohibited person you can
get a carry permit for about $50 and a trip to the sheriff to fill out paperwork. Open
carry is okay without a permit too.

" Fortunately, I have never needed it. But my training tells me that it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it."

I am generally pro "live and let live" -- but this mantra is actually quite at odds with the spirit of backpacking light...

Edited by ben2world on 07/13/2011 16:22:22 MDT.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, my summer base weight is under 7lbs and my winter base weight is under 12lbs. I'll carry a weapon if I choose to.

James:

It is obvious that you are extremely judicious about what you carry vs. what you leave behind. Besides, who's to say a gun is not every bit as appropriate as a PLB or a GPS, or whatever other gear pieces that people choose to carry?

Not an issue with guns per se (as indicated in my earlier post). It's the mantra -- which too often gets people to over pack far beyond what they need to. In your case, even though you stated it, methinks you don't actually subscribe to it -- not really -- else you would never have gotten down to 12 lbs for winter hikes! :)

" Fortunately, I have never needed it. But my training tells me that it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it."

This statement was in reference to my weapon only. I have been backpacking for 40 years this summer and I have carried the 50-70lb pack many miles, not to mention some of the packs I carried while in the Army. Ridiculous. Through this forum, several books and some field training I have learned that I don't need much of what I once carried. I have completely replaced all my gear and I have certainly adopted the "Backpacking Light" philosophy.

I failed to mention that I have also converted most of my friends to this way of backpacking. There are still a couple of hold outs, but they are starting to see the light.

Edited by Laien on 07/13/2011 17:18:16 MDT.

I have a CPL. I don't hide that fact. Considering the background check needed to get the CPL, if you hand over that piece of paper or plastic to an officer that shows that you were willing to be fingerprinted and have your background looked into.

I have also taken a hefty of boring but good for me classes, as dictated to me by my husband, on what is good for understanding my legal responsibilities in carrying. We shoot as a family, it is a hobby to us no different than hiking.

I am all for using my constitutional right even if many don't want it.

And not everything is heavy. Please. When compared to the load I currently carry - the most precious cargo I will ever carry, a firearm is nothing to it. Truly nothing.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/!ut/p/c5/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gDfxMDT8MwRydLA1cj72BTFxdjAwgAykeaxRtBeY4WBv4eHmF-YT4GMHn8usNB9uHXDzYBB3A00PfzyM9N1S_IjTDIMnFUBADEf0RM/dl3/d3/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS9ZQnZ3LzZfMjAwMDAwMDBBODBPSEhWTjJNMDAwMDAwMDA!/?navtype=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&cid=stelprdb5311871&navid=120000000000000&pnavid=null&ss=110617&position=News.Html&ttype=detail&pname=Okanogan-Wenatchee%20National%20Forest-%20Alerts

Sorry about the long link.

Some carry, more don't . True wilderness usually doesn't require a firearm but staying near a trailhead or highway, maybe. Also, don't shoot the snakes that rattle, that only selects those that don't. Shooting a charging bear will PO it even further, assuming a shot can even hit it's mark at 40 mph. A mountain lion will likely hit you from the back but even those attacks are very rare.

Edit: Think "wandering_bob" below is right on track, vv

Edited by hknewman on 07/16/2011 07:28:52 MDT.

Right now I carry a Taurus Slim 9 and I am starting to have second thoughts on carrying it. I am new to the whole sleeping in the wilderness thing so the gun give me a sense of security. I have extensive firearm training but getting a kill shot with a 9 on a charging bear is very unlikely. I am leaning towards getting a can of bear spray but I don't think they will help for things that go bump in the night!!!

JimT

The only trouble with bear spray is that its maximum effective range is about 25-30 feet, and its muzzle velocity is just about zero. Some users have claimed that they might do better against a bear by trying to throw the bear spray dispenser at it.

--B.G.--

The OP's question is a good one. He just wants input, because he is not sure whether or not it is a good idea. How we answer the question determines the course of the thread.

In most places in the continental US, a weapon is not needed to protect yourself from animals, with the possible exception that bear spray in Grizzly country could be helpful, but that does not guarantee your safety. A hand gun will probably not be effective if you are attacked by a bear or mountain lion... it will happen so quickly, you will probably just p*ss off the animal -- if you have time to get a shot off.

You need to be one heck of a marksman to quickly pull a weapon and hit a snake with one shot, if you stumble into striking distance. A hiking pole is more effective. If you are not close enough to a snake to get bitten, it is not a threat to you. This should answer the OP's questions.

I have been backpacking for a long time too. And with a couple exceptions don't even take a GPS or a cell phone. I have never carried or felt the need for a gun, mp3 player, or PLB when backpacking. To me they are all the same; just extra weight. If you need them for some reason, then bring them. Many people never have a need for any of them, others need them all.

I was in the military and was expert in the use firearms and some other nasty stuff for their intended purpose. I don't hunt, but it is not because I am against hunting, it is just something I am not interested in... I am not against guns. And yes we have the right to have them, and I would not want to abridge that right.

This topic comes up every so often, and it is a debate that no one can win, and it usually gets quite heated.

Over the decades a lot of people have asked me if I take a gun, and most of those who ask do not hike. Most people I know who backpack do not take one, and a couple tell me they do. Some beginning backpackers have expressed concern to me about running into bad people. And it was mentioned earlier in the thread. Like anything else in life, I suppose there is a remote chance. So if you decide you need a weapon, think about it carefully. If you were looking someone in the eye, could you really pull the trigger? You may think so; but could you?

Many rookie law enforcement officers and Army privates cannot do it, and they are trained to kill if needed. Some of the the ex-cops and ex-military people here can or have pulled it; but DO NOT assume you can. If you show a weapon you better be darn sure you are willing to use it, any hesitation to pull the trigger could get yourself killed. Just talking might get you out of a potentially dangerous situation whereas a gun might escalate a confrontation with deadly consequences for somebody. A life threatening confrontation in the wilderness is more than likely not going to happen in the first place. And if you run into really bad people, they are probably going to be better armed than you to begin with.

So if you absolutely must take a weapon, phone, etc. then take it. It is up to you. I don't think you need a weapon, but it is not up to me to decide what is best for you.

BTW, I have take trips where my big 3 weigh around 20 ounces :)

I appreciate all the comments. Let me say that if I do or do not pack a firearm, my main reason for starting this thread was just to get an idea and to hear other opinions before I decided myself. I too believe that it is my constitutional right to keep and bear arms but I also respect those that do not.

I didn't phrase my initial post properly. If I do carry, I have no intention on shooting bears or snakes or anything else for that matter. I have a whistle to scare away any bears and I have a healthy respect for any snakes. I do think that a visible handgun may be a deterrent to any people that may have more than hiking on their minds.

I guess it all boils down to what makes you feel comfortable and at ease in the woods. If going armed does that, then arm yourself. If carrying a weapon makes you nervous, then don't carry.

As for me, as someone pointed out, I would rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Tim,

To me it is a part of how "risk adverse" a person is. For example, I hauled around a space blanket and a lot of first aid items that I never used in over 20 years. Eventually, as I analyzed ever piece of gear, I got rid of the stuff that I never used. I also used Nalgene bottles for a long time because they are indestructible, but heavy. I now am comfortable using platypus or light Aquafina type bottles. Eliminating gear you don't need is part of the lightening up process.

Every person needs to review their kit and determine what is really necessary for them to be (and feel) safe and comfortable.

"I have a whistle to scare away any bears"

To a grizzly bear, that may sound like the dinner bell.

--B.G.--

"In most places in the continental US, a weapon is not needed to protect yourself from animals, with the possible exception that bear spray in Grizzly country could be helpful, but that does not guarantee your safety. A hand gun will probably not be effective if you are attacked by a bear or mountain lion... it will happen so quickly, you will probably just p*ss off the animal -- if you have time to get a shot off.

You need to be one heck of a marksman to quickly pull a weapon and hit a snake with one shot, if you stumble into striking distance. A hiking pole is more effective. If you are not close enough to a snake to get bitten, it is not a threat to you. This should answer the OP's questions."

---

Nothing is a "guarantee" of safety. Air bags don't guarantee you won't get hurt in a car accident.

Most handguns will be used only at "get off me" range. Thus you don't need to be much
of a marks-person.

It doesn't appear to take much of a weapon to get a lion off someone. They have been driven off by ball point pens, forceps, and water bottles. If one survives the initial attempt to bite through the neck vertabra, a handgun would be more effective it would seem than a pair of swiss army tweezers or a cloud of pepper spray swirling about one's head. Especially if a hiking partner is the one wielding the weapon.

Some bears can be discouraged with very little as well. Shooting at a
charging Griz that may be bluffing may not be the best use of the weapon.
But the sound of a shot can be effective. See this video example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=401ATHqOCOg

If you are hiking where you have aggressive snakes-copperheads, water moccasins-
snake shot could be of use.

"Is that package big or small?
Is it even there at all?
Is it dormant, or actually used?
Handled gently, or quite abused?
Is it under lock and key?
Is it always right with me?
Powerful ammo, or only blanks?
Do you really want to know ----- NO THANKS!"

Are we talking rifles here, or guns?

Can we all just stop trying to explain why guns are or are not a good idea for other people ?!? If it's legal, it's nobody's business whether anyone brings a gun (or whatever other gear piece) along -- or not.

"Can we all just stop trying to explain why guns are or are not a good idea for other people ?!?"

Ah, Ben, what you are witnessing here is a Clash of Titans, a fight to the death between the 1st and 2nd Amendments. After how many threads now, and it's still a draw? Why not just crack a beer, open a bag of chips, then kick back and watch the show? The Thrillah in Manilah redux. ;)

does bear spray work on those cute critters that everyone loves to hug ... namely the great white bear that is ever hungry and devours all moving things in his vast domain?

i think a BPL test is needed with live volunteers and bears for figuring out the best polar bear deterrence ...but then again if yr going to the land of the cute fuzzy white bears there you probably arent all that lightweight anyways ;)

"There's lots of places where people should never be in Canada as a whole without a firearm. If they need to be, or want to be, in these areas . . . it only makes sense to have a firearm," said University of Alberta biologist Andrew Derocher. "I wouldn't go into these areas without a firearm, so I don't see why other people shouldn't (carry a gun)."

http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/Parks+Canada+permit+guns+polar+bear+territories/5067807/story.html



awwww he just wants to hug ya ... wont eatcha ... promise ...

Edited by bearbreeder on 07/14/2011 22:04:55 MDT.

Wow. Over 24 hours old and this thread hasn't yet gone nuclear. The hoplophobes must all be out hiking in the company of the foaming gun nuts- or something- because they don't seem to be here at the moment. It kind of warms the heart. We CAN all just get along!

But, yes, Tim, you can search for the many other threads on this subject and get your answer- I think. Among the many myriad types of hikers there are two especially common archetypes: the conservative-macho-rugged-outdoors(wo)men and the crunchy-granola-liberal-treehugger. This is one subject where they clash horribly and generally in a un-civil manner, so it has become something of a faux pas to bring it up. But the old threads are there to search. Brace yourself.

I don't really care if a person brings a gun or not as long as they use it responsibly and aren't target shooting across area's people are walking through.

But as far as UL ethos goes it is definitely on the unnecessary list. The first thing you would ask yourself is if you have ever used your gun while on the trail? The second thing you would ask yourself is there a lighter substitute or can knowledge and skill be used to make the item unnecessary.

So if you have never been required to draw your gun on the trail, and bear spray is a lighter and just as effective alternative in dealing with animals the only time you might need a gun on the trail is dealing with Criminals and then you go back to point one of have you ever needed it.

If your response is it is better to have it then not I would assume that your first aid kit would also way 5lbs, you would have a PLB and a Spot for redundancy, all your insulation would be synthetic in case it got wet, and you would use double walled shelters made of bomber fabrics. Because you better be safe than sorry. The whole ethos that I have drawn from UL is that I might need it is never an acceptable reason to put an item in your kit.

I will repeat that I really don't have an issue with people carrying and I am in Canada so it is completely a non-issue to me but if you are considering bringing a gun it shouldn't be treated as a special part of your kit just because you have the right to carry it. It should be evaluated the same way we evaluate toilet paper and Nalagene bottles.

In the end I can't see justifying bringing a gun from a weight vs. function standpoint anymore than I can see justifying bringing a hard plastic indestructible Nalegene.

hey dont pick on nalgenes !!!

they are gods gift for storing boilling water in winter with a thermal sleeve

not to mention they make many a winter nights warmer filled with hawt water ... when UL wenches (no offence, gigolos for ladies) arent available ;)

I seldom carry a weapon when hiking or backpacking, but most often bring along a Mossberg shotgun when we are kayaking along Admiralty, Baranof and Chichagof Islands here in Southeast Alaska. There are a lot of brown bears on those islands and the shotgun adds a bit of an advantage and comfort. It is usually the only non water craft specific piece of gear we carry, the rest being the same in our backpacks.

The only time I have chambered a slug in a shotgun was on Baffin Island in the Canadian Arctic. We were constantly being pursued by polar bears as we paddled a 150 mile reach of Frobisher Bay. A particularly persistent young male tracked us along the coast and then plunged into the ocean and started to swim after our kayaks. I pulled the gun from the cockpit and shot near -- intentionally -- the bear to convince him we were not lunch.

Do you put hot water in Nalgene and then drink it?

I heard this leaches out the BPA which causes the drinker to lose the ability to use the "shift" key

I see and appreciate your point about questioning whether a gun the lightest solution for safety from wild animals etc.

" am in Canada so it is completely a non-issue to me"

Is this because it is difficult to get a permit,or something else? The photographer who
chased off the charging bear with a shot in the air had a permit.

"I heard this leaches out the BPA which causes the drinker to lose the ability to use the "shift" key"

LOL.

The pack while packing debate has come up a few times in backpacking groups, usually people who want the gun for human deterrent, particularly while hiking solo. I always ended up pointing out exactly what Nick said: to use a gun effectively one needs not only to have the skills to wield it correctly but also the mental quickness and fortitude to know exactly the right situation in which to fire it -- and then to do so without hesitation. There are very, very few people who can pull the latter off without something very wrong potentially happening.

Edited by evanrussia on 07/15/2011 11:09:58 MDT.

Jeebuz...I think my eyes are twitching.

Oh please. Don't be so condescending!

If you really want to give the right advice, then tell anyone who is interested to go take training. Nothing more than that is needed. Proper training - a simple answer.

This doesn't matter if it is a woman or man.

Don't tell someone that they won't have the fortitude and to give up their ideas. Their ideas are not crazy or halfbaked, they already understand that no one, and no one, is going to protect a person like themselves.

I know plenty of women who carry - the only issue we face as women is that if petite it can be harder to shoot certain firearms, due to hand strength. I have no issue shooting rifles for example but due to petite hands I cannot rack certain handguns - although I can still shoot them if needed. That is why I prefer a smaller 45 (Kimber) or full size 9 (Springfield XD) and not a full size 45. Women often shoot better than men even so there you go.

And in the PNW there is excellent schooling out there, taught by some of the best - and it is affordable. And there are even all women classes to take.

Evan, why is your post titled "Women and Guns"? I've been avoiding this thread, but your title + post is a ridiculous insinuation, for all the reasons Sarah pointed out. If a woman carries a gun, she's capable of being as competent--or incompetent--with it as a man.

"There are very, very few people who can pull the latter off without something very wrong potentially happening."

Regardless of post title, the above seems pretty gender neutral to me. These threads often 'go south' because people decide to take umbrage for the most, in my opinion, silliest of reasons.

Besides, I know Evan, and he'd help out an able bodied man as quickly as he'd help out a poor, defenseless woman. I'm sure of it....

Sorry! I actually didn't intend a gender slant to the main point, despite the post title. It was more parenthetical, since more women brought this up on my outings, out of concern for safety when hiking solo.

Training is important. Attitude is important. Taking resposibilty for your own safety is the most important. It doesn't matter if you are underwater while kayaking, hypothermic while hiking, or being assaulted by thugs at a gas station. If you've made the decision to not give in, to fight for your life even if the odds don't look good... that's the most important thing. Training and equipment are only tools that can make it easier.

It doesn't make any difference if you're a man or a woman. In fact, being a woman is sometimes an advantage to sexist criminals who think they will be an easy target. Being a large, muscular man might deter some thieves, but once they're committed, they are more likely to make sure you don't have a chance to react.

And yes, women are typically better shots. My daughter is a much better shot than I am. And yes, its a blow to my ego, but I'm proud of her at the same time. ;)

I don't consider sexism to be a silly reason, but yes, the post seemed more neutral and tone is hard to read online. Sorry if I misread you, Evan.

I assure you that I have the training, skill, mental quickness and fortitude to defend myself as do all those that I travel with. Most of us have done so in real life situations many times.

Great. Now we're talking- between the lines, of course- about who's actually got the cojones to shoot people and who actually has. What a beautiful day.

This topic always brings out the best in people, doesn't it?

Did you Say "Make My Day"?!

Oh... "What a Beautiful Day".

Edited by greg23 on 07/15/2011 11:45:08 MDT.

Craig, I was a soldier for over 20 years. Your welcome for the ability to voice your opinion.

I actually completely trust former (or current) soldiers, marines, law enforcement personnel, and anyone with the training and/or life experience with weapons. I'm just not sure that everyone who is actually packing falls into one of these categories.

(And a big thanks to all who risk themselves for the rest of the community in their daily lives. I recently spent 18 months on a base in Iraq as the State Department political officer and was wowed by what our soldiers and marines do every day -- year in and year out.)

Edited by evanrussia on 07/15/2011 12:42:34 MDT.

"Craig, I was a soldier for over 20 years. Your welcome for the ability to voice your opinion."

My gosh. I've been a taxpayer for more than 40 years. You're welcome for the retirement funding.

Thank you. I pay taxes too. I'm not retired. I still work a full time job as a RN.

By the way, I earned that retirement. I'm not standing in the welfare line. Very insulting remark, sir.

And I see that you work for the government yourself as a civi so that would make you a hypocrite as well as some other choice words I can think of.

Edited by Laien on 07/15/2011 12:25:21 MDT.

Edit:

Post #3: I have feeling this is gonna to be fun."
Post #4: No, It gets ugly every time."

Edited by greg23 on 07/15/2011 12:31:15 MDT.

You can be as insulted as you like, but I fail to see my hypocrisy. Never even implied you didn't earn the retirement. Don't see how my work for DoD negates my earlier post. In fact, not that you'd want to understand it, but it was your post to Craig that was a bit insulting.

You see, James, as much as it may like to think so, the military is not some entity all to itself. The military does much of the 'hard lifting' as it were, without a doubt. But it couldn't exist without the industrial/commercial base which supplies its food, fuel, weapons, medical supplies, etc. It couldn't exist very easily without the broad support of the many 'back home.' It couldn't exist without the scientists and researchers who try to ensure it has the best equipment/weapons to reduce battlefield injuries, and the best medical practices available to ensure those who are injured live. It couldn't even exist without the teachers, like Craig, who try to ensure that the population is educated, which is vitally important for it to understand the military's purpose and not misuse it.

Because I understand and appreciate that symbiotic relationship doesn't make me hypocritical, it simply makes me someone who, it seems, thinks a bit differently than you. We all (well, most of us) contribute to the defense of this nation. Some do it in uniform, some don't. It's simply hubris to believe otherwise.

Having served myself, I have great respect for those who have, and those who do (which includes a number of family members, some who lost their lives). I just don't puff up my chest and trot out that old semi-canard about how everyone else should thank me for their 'freedom.'

Edited by idester on 07/15/2011 12:50:52 MDT.

Yes, you are above it all aren't you? I've made my point and I'm not going to argue it with you. You're a hypocrite.

This post was childish and unnecessary, and so I've deleted it.

My apologies to James.

Edited by idester on 07/15/2011 13:20:12 MDT.

This is what happens every time when "gun in the backcountry" is brought up. People get emotional and some start fighting like babies.

My two cents: shame on OP for even bringing up such an idiotic thread, "I am wondering what the consensus is on carrying a firearm while backpacking?...".

What next? Gee, I wonder what's the consensus on making ours a Christian country?

its a valid question .. for most of history frontiersmen and explorers have carried firearms ...

now we "know" better or we think we do ...

however someone who has never been in the great outdoors may not know that the crazed rampaging bears you see in hollywood movies may not be reflected in real life ... or they may according to predatory bear news flashes

there are also 2 legged predators lurking about ... arent national parks grow ups these days anyways???

Seems most of us have learned the futility of arguing which is the the right religion -- we just need to take the next step to refrain from pontificating about which is the right approach re. guns. There is no single objective right approach, now, is there? No need to answer.

Can't we just learn to determine the right approach for ourselves -- and cultivate just a little respect for others to refrain from telling them their ways are wrong and ours is right? Take your gun with you, by all means, or not.

Edited by ben2world on 07/15/2011 15:52:43 MDT.

I liked the incident that happened many years ago in Yosemite. An armed ranger was several miles out on a trail when he received fire from some unknown sniper, and he was hit, then returned fire. The sniper escaped and the ranger was able to limp back to the road with a gunshot wound in the leg. The National Park Service mobilized dozens of armed rangers to search the area. After days, they came up empty.

Later on, the deeper truth of the incident was revealed. There was no sniper. The ranger's sidearm had discharged in the holster. He was so embarrassed that he cooked up the whole story of the sniper.

Needless to say, he doesn't work for NPS anymore.

--B.G.--

I read somewhere that if you bring a pistol into bear country take a .22 instead and shoot yourself. LOL. The pistol is very little match for a bear, and will only upset the bear more. What I read.

Someone way wiser than me said -

"Don't pack your fears."

Works for me.

Oh gosh Ben, the OP deserves no shame at all. None. He asked a valid question on a backpacking site. He's only guilty of not searching the site very well first, but there's a lot of folks guilty of that.

It's not his fault we can't act like adults and discuss such topics without sliding into silliness.

Ever met the type of person that shows up to the family BBQ and starts railing against the horrors of the meat industry while everyone is eating?

Or the type of dude that walks into the vegetarian health food store, chest puffed out with his favorite "I fear no deer" buck hunting shirt on?

Or the random guy sitting at your table at the corporate luncheon that immediately tries to steer the conversation into a political diatribe?

Yeah. It's not cool to be that dude.

Where I come from talking about killing people or the training necessary to kill people in a group of strangers is a little distasteful too.

Oh yes, Douglas, OP is clearly at fault. He didn't just ask about carrying guns, he asked for consensus!

Edited by ben2world on 07/15/2011 16:53:50 MDT.

"Where I come from talking about killing people or the training necessary to kill people in a group of strangers is a little distasteful too."

+1 Especially when it's so casually done.

For anyone keeping score, BTW, The 1st Amendment is clearly in the lead at this point.

"Where I come from talking about killing people or the training necessary to kill people in a group of strangers is a little distasteful too."

Don't know if I was the one that started the theme. But if I did, the next part was... often it is better and safer to talk your way out of a potentially volatile situation. Presenting a firearm when confronting someone you feel is a threat to you can be a point of no return. Thinking you will remain somewhat composed may not happen. Things can turn out much different than you projected in your mind. These are some of the factors one should review before deciding whether or not you want to carry a weapon. I don't carry one, don't encourage anyone to, but recognize the right others have to do so as long as they are within the law. As was mentioned, attitude and aptitude are two different things.

Lets face it, for all intents and purposes larger caliber handguns are designed to do one thing; kill. We can skirt that fact and be polite, but it does not change the fact. And some people cannot pull the trigger... that in a sense is a good thing -- deep down they value other lives; but presenting a weapon and freezing may put you in a much more serious situation than not. People who ask me about firearms when hiking always mention to protect yourself against others, which leads to many questions I think should be thought out carefully by those who are contemplating a weapon. If someone here asks the question about weapons and backpacking, it is a legitimate question. And to me, asking the question means they may not have considered all the points I just made. My intention is to layout the ingredients that should be considered before making a final decision. It is not my place to tell others how they should live their lives. Unfortunately, I have seen the view from both ends of a barrel. Neither is pretty, and neither is easy.

As I said earlier, do what you think is best for you.

What's the most ultralight gun model? What about a wrist-rocket with some rocks? Would that work pretty well for most things and still be lightweight?

Piper,

Wrist rockets and illegal in some states.

IMO as a former law enforcement officer, unless you are hiking where Grizzly or Polar Bears range, I submit that if you think you really need a firearm to protect yourself from anything or anyone, you are probably hiking in the wrong area. Go somewhere else; leave the stress, the extra weight, and the potential legal liabilities behind.


Incidentally, just displaying a firearm in a manner that can imply a threat to use it, even if you don't draw it, can constitute "brandishing" (or another legal equivalent)in many states.

Drawing and/or pointing a firearm at someone or in their general direction can constitute felony assault (of various types) in many states.

Pulling the trigger opens a whole new can of legal worms, even if you think you're justified in doing so.

Bottom line, be careful; you may have to convince a jury that given the circumstances as you saw them, each one of them would have done exactly what you did. That can be a hard sell, as they are not under the same mental stress that you were.


Best course of action.....try to walk or run away from trouble if you can.

Edited by wandering_bob on 07/15/2011 20:03:33 MDT.

Lol. I just went hiking with a buddy about a month ago into an area where there had been some reports of aggressive bear activity. (Mostly just stealing improperly hung food bags) He asked if I was bringing a gun, and I told him I was. (He's a liberal and doesn't own any guns, but he wanted to make sure I had mine!) He asked which gun I brought, and I told him my little .22 pistol. He looked a little concerned and said "A 22 won't stop a bear!" I laughed and told him it wasn't for the bear, it was for him. I was gonna shoot him in the leg and run.

He didn't think it was funny at first, but laughed later. :)

Az

"He's a liberal and doesn't own any guns"

I'm a liberal and I own side arms, shotguns and rifles. And I know ultra-right conservatives who don't own any type of firearm. Maybe it really isn't a political statement.

Edited by Umnak on 07/15/2011 23:44:41 MDT.

Sorry, didn't mean it that way, it was meant as a joke. I actually despise labels and have been known to vote both ways based on ideas and integrity rather than party affiliation. And clearly it's not too terribly important if I was willing to spend a week in the backcountry with a stinky liberal! ;)

At least he wasn't a Frenchman!

Az

I told you this was going to be fun.

I think this might be the best one yet! I can't remember that we've had religion and the army in here before. I want to see if we can get private vehicles versus public transport in as well, but I'm not sure if there's a way to bring it up without making it seem like I'm orchestrating something. Any one care to help out?

I've never felt I needed a weapon in the woods while backpacking, but I most always feel like I need one when using the metro in the DC area. Those public-transport-using people scare the bejeezus out of me. It's why I use drive in my own car, by myself, most often. I feel much safer in my own car than in any public transport vehicle.

(That wasn't so hard, now was it.....)

Allright! Now THIS is more like what I was expecting!

(Now do you understand, Tim?)

Where *I* come from discussing ways to kill people is simple professionalism, whereas making condescendingly smarmy straw-man attacks is considered distasteful. Not pointing fingers- just sayin'. :)

But I don't think that Tim was being That Guy. That would imply that BPL is a nest of groupthinking gun-banning hoplophobes, which it obviously is NOT since we do argue about this subject periodically. Some people just like to believe that all Right Thinking People agree with them. Or at least that they should. That is, after all, the very definition of "right thinking", isn't it?

Edited by acrosome on 07/16/2011 09:00:32 MDT.

A lowly deer can run 75 yds after having its lungs and heart shot out with a high powered rifle, spraying blood the whole way, and drop dead at the end with its body basically drained of blood.

Wild animals are capable of withstanding bodily damage that you and I really cannot comprehend, and still keep functioning for some time. If you shoot a bear, you better kill him and not just make him angry.

Now I understand now why there were groans all around when I started this. I wish I hadn't. I apologize for not properly searching. If I had, I would never had started this. I guess I assumed that everyone that read this would be an adult and would be able to discuss or offer an opinion in an adult manner. I see I was wrong.

FYI, I just got back from an overnight and I did not take a firearm with me. It had nothing to do with the discussion here, it all boiled down to weight. I didn't want to add the extra weight.

For those of you that answered my initial question, thank you for taking the time to respond. For those of you that completely turned this around, thank you for opening my eyes. I will remember what I have learned the next time I ask a question.

Tim,
The outcome was only a shock to You. For too many of us it is like Halloween 13 - the outcome was preordained, the only unknown was the players.

Don't lose any sleep over it.
Smile the next time you see a similar opening post.
And wait for things to unfold.

Its a legit question and you should not feel bad about asking it. If you think its opinionated here, you should read similar posts on whiteblaze.

There are legit reasons to carry if you are willing to pack the weight. Feeling more secure about handling varius remote situations, is as good as any.

I carry a small .25 cal auto sat.night special in a pocket during bow hunting season on private land, just because it makes me feel more secure. Not for snakes, or bears, or cougars. More likely for a pack of wild dogs or a two-legged varmint.

"More likely for a pack of wild dogs or a two-legged varmint."

For two-legged varmint, I would suggest bear spray. That would teach him a lesson.

--B.G.--

"For those of you that completely turned this around, thank you for opening my eyes. I will remember what I have learned the next time I ask a question."

Hey, Tim, it's better than getting whacked with a big wooden paddle by all the BPL members for your initiation. The hazing is now officially over. Welcome to BPL!