Companion forum thread to:

Lightweight Frameless Backpacks State of the Market Report 2011: Part 3 - Packs for Ultralight Backpacking

Edited by addiebedford on 07/12/2011 15:21:31 MDT.

Will, When did Mountain Laurel Designs start to offer a cuben fiber version of the Prophet backpack? I do not see it mentioned on their website.

John, According to Ron Bell at MLD, a Cuben version of the popular Prophet pack will be available. Oftentimes it takes awhile for things to get on the website since small manufacturers do many roles themselves. This is another good example of how BPL and forums like this provide readers with the latest information. Happy hiking! Will

First off, really enjoying This State of the Market Suite! Thanks Will!

I was wondering if there are any plans to more specifically cover the SUL backpacks available? As was mentioned, much has changed since the 2006 SUL review and I would love to read an updated comparative review specifically covering the SUL packs available.

MLD Burn and GG murmur have seemed to evade the spotlight as well.

Edited by TalusTerrapin on 07/13/2011 15:38:50 MDT.

Love these SOM reports. I am a bit surprised, being that it did so well in the last report, that the Jam did not garner the Highly Recommended rating. Sure seems that the GG Gorilla came out on top as a go to pack with the Mariposa Plus doing well too. Thanks Will and crew for a great report segment. -Hopefully the Ohm will be in a future report.

I have a general question....

How do any of these packs deal with holding a bear canister? Obviously, the larger the pack the better a can would fit. But more specifically, the packs with no stays....do bear cans work alright with them?

Hey John,

I have a 2011 SMD swift and it fits my BV500 vertically but not horizontally. It's a huge pack too! Or rather, it fit, I just had to put it in vert then move it to horiz, and it blocked the use of the side pockets, so vertical it is!

Another orientation is horizontal, with a 90-degree twist. I have a solo BearVault that I place into my old Golite Breeze backpack. I place it in the bottom of the pack with the flat cap facing against my back. In other words, the axis of the cylinder is parallel to the trail. I could probably load two of them into the same pack this way.

--B.G.--

It would have been a good thing to include bear canister capacity in the framed and frameless backpack testing! It isn't just Californians who occasionally need to carry them!

Has anyone ever thought of this: Why doesn't someone create a shaped bear cannister, say a kidney shape in cross section, with fitting lids - with a cross section shape to match your back. Larger than normal, shaped to fit inside a frameless backpack of, say, 45L volume internal, and this would provide a rigid internal frame for all the gear and waterproof it, and float it for river crossings? Taking it to an extreme, you could have a bear cannister as a small (e.g. 30L volume) pack with fittings and foam on its own for a backpack, as long as it was shaped in cross section. In my part of the world we don't get bears, but I've always wondered why you guys carry your bear cannisters on top of or outside of the pack instead of integrating it, especially as part of the frame, as most seem to then rely on rolled sleeping matt for frame and a separate bag for water proofing, as well as the bear cannister.

I've had a lot of experience in building competition white water boats in carbon and other more exotic materials, so I know such would be technically possible, and with appropriate foam cored technology you could keep the weight down to a fraction of a solid resin layup. Every time I see the "ideal" cross-sectional shape for backpack (e.g. Aarn website) I think about this sort of thing.

A thought, anyway.

Craig

Edited by skeets on 07/16/2011 02:09:22 MDT.

I'm not an expert on bear cans, but the deciding factor on shape, has to do with what a bear can or cannot possibly open their jaws around to grip it and carry it away or provide any crushing force to it. Strong enough not to be crushed by their weight. Or opened by bouncing on them, ( I have seen this method employed ), it worked on the early models of the Bear Vaults. The lid would pop off if they compressed the sides enough.


I do agree that bear cans need to be taken into consideration in more of this kind of backpacking reviews. I pretty much ignore any reviews that don't consider them, because almost all of my hiking is areas where I need them. Having to carry a bear can will probably keep me out of the SUL forum as well. Even with the Bearikade, I'm at a 30 oz disadvantadge. I probably will never attain self proclaimed 'SUL Guru' status, but I think I can live with that....I know we can be like golf and bowling and have a handicap system subtracting the weight of the bear can, then , maybe then I could be a Uber cool SUL hiker.

By the way, how do Uber cool people get those two dots above the U in Uber anyways???

Edited by rp3957 on 07/16/2011 12:19:41 MDT.

One method for using bear canister with smaller UL and SUL packs is to strap them on top empty while hiking.

Carry the food inside in the regular fashion and then fill the canister up for night storage.

Various small mods like adding a velcro strip to the can and to the center top pack strap , etc will hold the light weight empty solo canister just fine. Using this method and you can use a small 10oz frameless pack like the BURN on the JMT, etc.

Discounting a bear can sounds fair enough to me.

As Tommy proposed in the XUL definitions thread:

"In areas where a bear canister is required by law, the weight of the canister will not be counted towards the 5.0 lbs limit, but instead an asterisk * should be used next to the weight and a sincere written apology for being responsible and law abiding."

Bear canisters are realities for some folk. It would be nice to see some new more functional shapes that would work better inside a pack. But as others have pointed out, the thing must be big enough and tough enough that the bear can't bounce the lid off or evn worse, get his jaw around it and twist it off like a vise grip. I also like Ron's idea of carrying it empty on the outside of one's pack. Sounds great in theory though I've never tried it.

Here's a link to a bear canister that is under development and trying to get approval.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=41913

And here's a link to their website. It appears they are still trying to get approval as the order status is "pre-order".

http://camp4outdoors.com/

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=alt+characters

Annoy your enemies, impress your friends! :P

Possible solution? I "restrung" my pack and will be trying this out this week.

I threaded the shock cord on my GG Mariposa Plus inside the mesh pockets, to see if I can get compression AND unfettered access to the pockets. Another possibility - at about 1/2 the weight - is Spectra cord (more on this in a moment).

Threading: from inside the pocket, cord goes through a hole in the mesh to the outside, right next to the ribbon, feed through the fabric ribbon (lash-point/anchor), back through the mesh to the inside of pocket and on to the next lash point, again feeding the cord out, around, and back in. (The cord lock remains on the outside for easy access - the ends of the cord go through the mesh to the outside.)

Using the supplied shock cord may prove problematic because it is rough and seems to "stick" or catch a little on the mesh when cinching due to its rough outer surface; a smooth-surfaced cord may prove more effective.

I have no experience with various cords, but it seems logical that a smooth-sheathed cord may be a better idea (Spectra or similar). 1. Won't catch on the mesh when pulled through, and 2. cord will hold the tension and keep the pack compressed whereas shock cord gives up some compression when it stretches.

Now I'll test the idea and see...

(For the MYOG crowd, just sew the anchor points inside the pockets to begin with.) :-)

Thanks for the well done, and for my purposes timely, article. Just returned from a five-day/50 mile trip through the Great Smoky Mountains with six 13-18 year old Scouts. My son was using his GG Gorilla for the first time and it could not have worked out better. He started out with a 15 lb. load that included his food (not water)and was the envy of his peers. The medium size pack with small belt carried exceptionally well on his 64"/100 lb. frame, provided more than enough storage room, and the mesh pockets proved to be handy. The aluminum stay made a significant difference by keeping the load on the hips and allowing air circulation around the back (with temps in the high 80's and humidity at 75% this was a real benefit). Now we're preparing for an 11 day trip to the Bob Marshall and his friend who is accompanying us desperately wants to lighten his load. I was in the process of researching packs for him when I checked BPL and found this article. The range of products and analytical approach are great. Looks like we're in the market for another Gorilla.

Thanks, Will, for another great and comprehensive review.

You mention that the Z-pack Dyneema X 2600 actually has a capacity of 3300 cu in. Is this different from the Cuben version? And if the Dyneema X 2600 measures so large, what does the X 3200 measure?

Hi all, here's responses to your comments and questions specific to the ZPacks Dyneema 26:

Compression System: I agree that braided cord would provide more solid compression rather than elastic cord, and there should be no problem with threading in through the inside of the front mesh pocket so it compresses the whole pack. Joe Valesco at ZPacks would probably do that for you if you request it.

Volume of X32: I only tested the X26 in the Dyneema Gridstop fabric, and found it to be oversized. The X32 is exactly the same design, with a larger volume, and I did not obtain that pack and measure it. Sorry, its not reasonable or do-able to request every pack size from a small manufacturer.

SUL Packs: This group of packs has totally changed. Unfortunately, I couldn't get all of the packs currently available, so I will not be doing a SOTMR on them. Instead I plan to do an article on "Mountain SUL Backpacking" where I up the base weight to 7.5 pounds so I can include adequate insulation, shelter, and rain wear for backpacking in the mountains. The current SUL base weight of 5 pounds does not allow that kind of gear, so it only really works for warm/dry backpacking. The second part of that article will include reviews of some of the SUL packs.

Happy hiking, Will.

Edited by WilliWabbit on 07/22/2011 16:06:17 MDT.

"I plan to do an article on "Mountain SUL Backpacking" where I up the base weight to 7.5 pounds so I can include adequate insulation, shelter, and rain wear for backpacking in the mountains. The current SUL base weight of 5 pounds does not allow that kind of gear, so it only really works for warm/dry backpacking. The second part of that article will include reviews of some of the SUL packs. "

Can't wait!

Seconded! Very excited to see the SUL mountain coverage!

Perhaps I missed something in the article, but I was a bit confused about the "Durability" ratings vs. the "Most Durable". The GG packs are highlighted as being "constructed of heavier ripstop nylon fabric that is very durable.", but are given ratings of 2.5 - 3 for "Durability", vs. 3 given to Cuben Zpacks Blasts, and 4 given to the Cuben huckePACKs. Maybe this is due to the mesh side pockets on the GG packs?

Also, I was wondering what folks thought about this sentence: "Opting for a frameless pack made of a Dyneema ripstop fabric adds about 4 to 8 ounces (113 to 227 g) to the weight of the pack, but the pack will last a lifetime compared to just a few years or a thru-hike on one of the long trails." -- is the difference in durability between Cuben and Dyneema really that dramatic?

Any reason the MLD Exodus was not included in this report? The Exodus was awarded the 2011 Backpacker Magazine's Reader's Choice Award. It's a 3100 ci pack (3500 ci with extension collar) made out of Dyneema and weighs 17 ounces. It's the larger brother to the Prophet, which was mentioned in the 2011 Market Report.

http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=103

Just to show how dynamic the market is, the Market Report 2011 is already out-of-date. :)
On August 21, 2011, Zpacks have discontinued their Zpacks Dyneema line (which included 2 of the backpacks mentioned in BPL 2011 Market Report), and replaced it with a new Zpacks Exo pack. This backback is about 3000ci and weight 10.2 ounces (frameless) or 11.8 ounces (with carbon fiber external frame).

http://www.zpacks.com/backpacks/exo.shtml

The new Zpacks Exo backup uses a 1.43 oz Cuben Fiber/Nylon hybrid fabric. Anyone know how this new hybrid fabric compares with Dyneema?

Edited by Cephalotus on 08/28/2011 23:12:57 MDT.

Just shows that our wonderful innovative "cottage" industry folks are continuing to innovate!

Remember that it takes some months to get an article of this magnitude together. It's kind of like trail guidebooks, which are often out of date 6 months before they hit the bookstores.

Edited by hikinggranny on 08/28/2011 22:19:59 MDT.

Jon - I have the GG Gorilla Pack - Just completed the JMT - Used a Bearikade W/E from Wild Ideas (rented it). Got 9 days food in and it fitted vertically on top of a loosely packed tarp, bivy bag, sleeping bag and Cacoon jacket. I then stuffed clothing around the sides. Worked really well. All up weight for (9 days - Muir Trail Ranch to Whitney Portal) was bag on 10Kgs - as per scales at MTR.

I purchased the GG Gorilla based heavily off this review and other research but am planning to return it,

Overall it seems great, but the shoulder straps are incredibly flawed and uncomfortable. They literally cut into your neck. They are far too wide, lack a J shape that pulls them out to the sides around the neck, and the Velcro is on the inside (inexplicably) and extremely abrasive. Maybe they work well for individuals with extremely thin necks, but for people such as myself with broad shoulders and necks I recommend you look elsewhere.

Other minor criticism is the stays should connect to the hip pack. Puzzling design decision since the stays reach right next to the hip pack and a simple pocket is all that is needed to pass some load to the hip strap.

Very unfortunate because otherwise it is a great pack. Very impressed by the quality of construction, but an uncomfortable pack is just useless.

Edited by Bigbluehi on 11/11/2011 02:53:09 MST.

i think that many people here purchase packs based more on reviews and other peoples recommendation ... you arent the first i believe to have this issue

the most important thing is to have a pack that fits well ... weight, price, and features are secondary ...

best of luck in yr search for a new pack

I thought narrower straps were an option on the Gorilla now.

I believe I read somewhere in the SoM that some of the backpacks had an extra long pack torso length, since I´m tall it is an important factor to me but I cant find the info again. Im not talking about S,M,L but the actual length. Anyone remembers where it was?