has got me shaking my head. I mean, how many tens of thousands of years have humans been doing this? Titanium poo trowels now, next year unobtanium. Where will it all end? Just freakin' use a stick, roll over a rock, whatever, then do your business and boogie on down the trail. Sorta simple when you think about it for a millisecond or two.......

Tom
Your are missing the obvious BPL solution
A poo trowel made with a Ti frame and Cuben body ( of course the heavier bombproof type Cuben)
I bet that it will be a few grams lighter than the full Ti version and easily twice the cost , therefore a better solution.
Franco

Multi use
I am thinking now that with a bit of bodywork I could turn my peg/trowel into a long handle spoon as well.
Just in case I came across one of them XUL guys without a one...

"A poo trowel made with a Ti frame and Cuben body ( of course the heavier bombproof type Cuben)
I bet that it will be a few grams lighter than the full Ti version and easily twice the cost , therefore a better solution."

By that logic, substitute Unobtanium for Ti and you'd have the ultimate solution. They don't call it Unobtanium for nothing. That might lure even me into the market. But I'll bet that still wouldn't get Mike C. to bite. ;=)

"Post a picture of a legitimate cat hole via trekking pole."

You think someone's heel, or a found stick will do better? You didn't request pics of those suggestions...
Next time I have to dig a cat hole in the woods, I'll try to remember to take a pic of it just for you.

Wilderness wanderers have NOT been burying their poo for thousands of years! They've just been pooing on the ground wherever they felt like it, or when in a community, wherever their community told them to.

It is only very, very recently that we wilderness wanderers have been told to bury our poo and TP (if used) in the top 6-8" of soil.

I'm just going to leave this here:

Dispose of Waste Properly

"But I'll bet that still wouldn't get Mike C. to bite."

Good.

There is a bit of a conflict between minimizing impact on the environment and other people, and minimizing pack weight.

The former can be accomplished easily by packing it out.
The latter can be accomplished by simply making deposits anywhere without any consideration for the environment or other people.

One of the worst cat hole options, from a LnT perspective, is moving the rock to create a cat hole. The optimal location for a cat hole is in moist, biologically active soil, well removed from water and human activity, and exposed to sunlight. Mix the poo with the soil and restore the ground cover. Poo under a rock will last a very long time.

I use my trekking poles to dig my cat holes. If the ground is so hard that I can't dig with a stick, then it is likely not a good place to be making a deposit from a LnT perspective. If I can't dig in biologically active soil, I just make my deposit in a zip lock, not hard at all by holding the bag open against the backside, and then pack it down the trail until I can find a great place to dig a cat hole or some type of facility. Those that can't poo in a zip lock can just do it on the ground and then pick it up with the bag. Anyone who has a dog, at least anyone who is considerate, has had a lot of practice using plastic bags to pick up steamers and there is no significant difference between doing it for your dog and doing it for yourself except that human poo is a significant health hazard to other people because it carries human diseases. It is important not to just throw human waste in the trash, where it will end up in a landfill, although there are products such as poo powders that make it safe to do so.

The assumption that the location of evacuation and the location of disposal must be the same creates a lot of problems in the outdoors. Once it is understood that this assumption is false and that we can eliminate in one location and dispose in another, then life is much easier. It is often easy to find a great location to eliminate, and it is not that hard to find a great location to dispose, but it is often hard to find one location that is perfect for both.

Just as a dog owner should be considerate and clean up after his dog, a hiker should be considerate and clean up after himself. Turning over a rock for an instant cat hole might do a good job of removing the poo from our vision, but it is one of the worst options from a LnT standpoint.

It is easy to minimize your pack weight by just dumping your trash along the trail instead of packing it out, but of all the trash we can leave behind, the impact of human waste on other humans using the trail is the worst. If the choice is between properly disposing of your poo or your Budweiser empties, please just dump your cans and carry out your poo. I would much rather encounter your empty cans than your poo.

I think a cat hole trowel is just as unnecessary as a hatchet. If you need a tool to prepare firewood, then it is wood you should not be burning in the first place. If you need a specialized tool to dig a cat hole, then it is likely a poor place to dig a cat hole and you should just pack it out. Neither item belongs in the pack of a conscientious user of our outdoor resources.

Edited by RHanson on 07/27/2012 09:46:11 MDT.

"One of the worst cat hole options, from a LnT perspective, is moving the rock to create a cat hole. Poo under a rock will last a very long time."

I have to disagree with you on this one, Richard, speaking from years of personal experience with the "under a rock" technique. I have examined many rocks I used in a high/remote area of the Sierra where I frequently return, out of exactly the same concern you express. After 9 months to a year, there is almost no trace of anything having been deposited, or no trace at all. The most I have ever found has been a small, shrivelled piece of material barely recognizable as a former deposit. What is left of the TP after I burn it has completely decomposed. I wet the TP, either by urinating on it(preferred method to add nitrogen) or dousing it with water, to eliminate any possibility of fire. A properly selected rock, well gardened afterward to restore the material at the margins thereby concealing its use as a cat hole, is an excellent choice for relieving oneself, IME. Now, if that doesn't bring Mike C. out of the bushes, I'll be really worried about him.


"The optimal location for a cat hole is in moist, biologically active soil, well removed from water and human activity, and exposed to sunlight."

Agreed, but many of us hike in areas less than optimal for decomposing human waste. That is why I add a little extra moisture to aid the process in the high alpine areas I frequent. Along with the moisture provided by rain and snow melt, itseems to get the job done.

As for using a zip loc baggie, I have yet to have any trouble finding a suitable place before I lose control of my sphincter. That said, to each their own. SYOS.

Edited by ouzel on 07/29/2012 20:07:03 MDT.

I could dig a cathole with a stick, or with my hiking pole or my spork... but it's faster, easier and happier with a little shovel. My little orange shovel is easy to spot, too, and that's handy from time to time.

I don't need it, but it's useful and I like it.

Its pretty disturbing that members here are lifting up rocks instead of burrying thier shi t. We all know what the right thing to do is.

"Its pretty disturbing that members here are lifting up rocks instead of burrying thier shi t."

Would you mind explaining the logic, if any, behind your equally disturbing statement? If you can come up with anything beyond an ill informed opinion to back up your statement, I'll be more than happy to debate the subject with you.

"We all know what the right thing to do is."

LOL

Oh, you guys need to go high-tech! (I jest)

On Tuesday, I was hiking Mount Whitney. Each hiker picking up a permit is issued one Acme Brand Human Waste Pack-Out Kit. No batteries required. Instructions are included. It includes a plastic "target", some kitty litter, and some TP, and it all seals up tightly after use.



Previously, this wilderness area was receiving far too much impact from hikers, and especially from anybody digging their catholes all around in just a few concentrated areas. So, now everybody is issued their own kit, and there is a disposal bin at the bottom of the trail. On the other hand, if you were backpacking the entire John Muir Trail from south to north, then you get to carry the kit, either new or used, the entire distance of over 200 miles.

I know, I know. Tom is sitting back there thinking, "What will they think of next?"

--B.G.--

"I know, I know. Tom is sitting back there thinking, "What will they think of next?"

Actually, what I'm thinking is that WAG Bags are an idea whose time has come in anthill situations like Mts Whitney, Rainier, Denali, et al, and probably in the near future for high density trails like the JMT. I have no issue with that whatsoever. What I do have an issue with is ill informed acolytes of The High Priest of Poo braying on about The Way, The Truth, and The Light when it comes to LNT poo practices in the wilderness. There are simply too many different environments out there for one size to fit all. I could go on about how useless a poo trowel is when traversing endless talus, rocky soil, moraines, glaciers, root laced soils in the Cascades, etc, but I will leave it to each one to figure it out for themselves. This is not to poo poo the use of trowels in lowland or even highland areas where the soil is suitable, but merely to point out that there are environments where they are dead weight and the simplest approach is to make use of the pre-dug cathole provided by prising a medium sized, partially embedded boulder out of its socket and carefully replacing it after taking care of business. No muss, no fuss, no bother, at least as LNT as digging a cathole, almost impervious to curious critters except for REALLY hungry bears, avoids damage to roots in heavily vegetated areas, and prevents partial washing away in the event of serious rainfall or spring runoff.

Nice to see people arguing about how to leave little trace, these types of threads generate lots of good info. Tom, thanks for pointing out the rock stuff, that's good to know too, and I'm glad you have empirically verified your claims by revisiting sites a year later.

Would be interesting to see that data for under rocks for different climates, dry, wet, humid, alpine, and so on.

Not sure why however you are so opposed to a little .5oz ti poo trowel, those things are nice, I just used it on a 5 day trip in the cascades, it was nice, really helped in the soil up there, a stake would not have done much in that case. Plus it's easy to slice out a circle of the top moss/whatever, put it the side, make the hole, refill it, and put the top circle back on.

The dislike of such things can't be based on the use of unnatural or unsustainable techniques, I mean, we all walk around with some 10 plus pounds of hydrocarbon petrochemical based synthetic stuff on our backs and bodies, right? A trowel like the big dig weighs 1/2oz give or take, it's not some mass of dead weight in my pack, I use it every day. And if I don't, that's fine, I don't always use everything every day.

ti is a good material for these trowels, it's the absolute minimum you can have and still have it be functional. I've dug too many cat holes where others have been before me to relish the notion of scooping it out with my hands, heh.

Now if you want something real to worry about, read this article. That's about how our actual daily lives, and what's required to sustain them, is impacting deep systems in our environment. By the way, I noted what that study said up in the Cascades too, just like I have everywhere else in recent years:

"When I returned a year later, nothing appeared to have changed at first glance. No stumps or debris — just conifers and lush understory. But to the ear — and to the recorder — the difference was shocking. I’ve returned 15 times since then, and even years later, the density and diversity of voices are still lost. There is a muted hush, broken only by the sound of an occasional sparrow, raptor, raven or sapsucker. The numinous richness of the original biophony is gone."

Personally, this is what I am worried about, I've been noticing this more and more, and it's a direct sign of how deeply human culture is impacting stressed wilderness and other less populated areas. I am not worried about carrying an extra 1/2 ounce of material in my myog backpack, to be honest.

I think it's important to keep in mind that what is appropriate and effective in one area may be inappropriate and/or ineffective in another. I've hiked places where my shoe heel does a great job of digging a cathole, places where the only option short of power tools and explosives is to search for a rock which can be turned over, and places where the only ethical solution is to pack it out in a wag bag. In the mid-Atlantic green tunnel where I do most of my hiking, a tool which can cut through a network of thin surface roots is essential. Currently I'm using a Fiskars plastic garden trowel with cut-down handle, but my inner gear freak really wants a Big Dig.

Back in my traditional hiker days I carried one of these.



Then I discovered this website and it became one of these.



Later I got caught up in the dual use movement. ;-)



But it wasn't really dual use. If the tent was up I was out of luck. So I either carried a trowel, an "extra stake" or used a stick.

So now I am back to this.



It's 0.31 ounces heavier than the MSR Blizzard stake which I have since retired to the gear closet. I secure my tent with Ti shepherds hook stakes and dig my cat holes when needed with my modified plastic trowel.

As far as the leave no trace ethic goes, animals have "gone" in the woods for centuries. To my knowledge very few of them cover up or pack out their "souvenirs". I very much doubt any of the animals look for a spot 200 feet or more off trail and below and away from a water source before they relieve themselves. In fact in the Grayson Highlands the hiker's water source by Thomas Knob Shelter is fenced off to keep the wild ponies away.

IMHO there is no real harm done by a responsible hiker who "goes" way off trail, in a cat hole below and away from water sources and "covers his tracks" well.

That being said last year I covered 100 miles on the AT and had no need for a single cat hole. On the more highly traveled trails the availability of privies and trail towns compensate fairly well for the increased number of hikers and decrease the need for cat holes. YMMV

Party On,

Newton

One thing about that LNT page caught me by surprise. They urge you you to build any fire you do build on a pre-existing fire site. Then they say "Burn all wood and coals to ash, put out campfires completely, then scatter cool ashes."

I understand everything they are saying other than why I should want to scatter the ashes. If my fire was on a pre-existing (evidently permanent) fire site, why not leave the ashes in place?

1) Unnecessary strewing of ashes does not sound LNT to me
2) Most people will have at least a little charcoal in their ashes -- and that will degrade very slowly. Better to let it remain in the established fireplace.

What am I missing?

I think the ashes spread vs. buried in place issue is one outside the scope of the much more important, "how do you dig a cathole?" issue this thread is intended for.

Hey, I have the same trowel as John/Newt!

Here's a swing on the LNT issue: when I hit a campsite with multiple people or where there's more than one day to stay, I believe that both impact and effort are minimized with a latrine trench, which is refilled sectionally as it's used. When completed and recovered, there's a linear concentration of waste, but a minimized number of holes and locations.

Of course, there is only one way to dig such a thing and anyone doing it differently is just plain wrong. :)

"Hey, I have the same trowel as John/Newt"!

Erik,

How did you come by yours?

I was looking at a post that described how easily broken the plastic trowels were in their factory new configuration. The OP of the thread described how his had broken about mid way up the "scoop" section. He said that he proceded to use what was left to finish the job. To his amazement not only did it work but it seemed to do an equal if not better job. Upon returning home he headed for the workshop to shape and file the broken trowel into what inspired me to modify mine as pictured in my post above.

FWIW Along the AT at shelters where there isn't a privy some thoughtful trail maintenance types usually leave a real full size steel and wood shovel. It's not quite as HD as Dale's Kubota up above but I have seen other hikers drop their pack, pick up the shovel and hurry off into the bushes. ;-)

Party On,

Newton