I was wondering does anyone carry poo trowels? I have a 1 oz snow tent stake for a trowel. I was wondering if I should ditch it to save 1 oz of weight? Help me out Ultra lighters! I want to join the gang.

I also have a one-ounce aluminum SMC snow stake that works good. It kind of depends on what kind of surface you dig in, assuming that the stake gets used on the shelter.

If you are in loose sand, then all you need is a boot heel. If you are in hard-packed soil, you probably need a metal implement of some sort.

--B.G.--

If you're most often hiking where there are plenty of rocks, just turn over a rock that's partially embedded in the ground. Instant cathole. Thanks to Eric for 'learning me that' on the Teton Crest hike last year!

I have a Montbell trowel that weighs a couple of ounces....I really don't notice any weight savings by not taking it.

Ken, A tent stake works great as a Poo Trowel--Especially the MSR Ground Hog. Multi-use!

"...just turn over a rock that's partially embedded in the ground. Instant cathole."

Yes, my favorite technique, then roll the rock back into position... or borrow from the guy in your group who actually packs a trowel- someone has to be the moocher.

@ Casey,

I've never really "needed" a poo trowel, taking a few extra seconds to find a stick or rock to dig a small cathole is practical enough, even in hard soil. Personally, the poo trowel is somewhat of an unnecessary item, more of a convenience, one that I don't feel the need to bring. Weight savings isn't the issue behind my decision to leave a trowel behind, rather the elimination of extraneous items from my pack, the simplification of the process, so let your style and preference of gear on the trail be the deciding factor, not the arbitrary 1oz. weight savings according to some silly UL dogma. If a poo trowel somehow enhances or maximizes your experience, then by all means, pack it!

The stake idea was new to me as one of Mike Clelland's tips. Since I already carry a couple Groundhogs it saves me a few ounces and I feel really silly for not thinking of it.

But Jay...then I have poo on my tent stake...the smell would keep me awake at night!

Might want to stir it less...

I also carry a SMC snow stake, with a small loop of BPL cord on it. I use it as a trowel first, and as an extra stake if a tent stake is lost, bent, etc. That is, it's ready if needed and not already used as a tent stake.

However, I sometimes don't take it, as the PNW soil is pretty easy to dig into with a stick and has lots o' rocks.

NIX!!!

I also have the Montbell trowel. 1.4 ounces.

There's no way a MSR Groundhog can even compare. With the size of the catholes I have to dig, I need something with more surface area to get the dirt out of the hole. It's well worth its weight for me.

"If you're most often hiking where there are plenty of rocks, just turn over a rock that's partially embedded in the ground. Instant cathole."

A technique tried and true. The ultimate in lightitude. I've never used any other method in the Sierra. I'm surprised it's not in Don C.'s book. Or is it?

The Cascades can be another matter, however. Lots of fibrous roots from heather, cedar, etc can make it a real hassle. Mostly we use our ice axes if we have 'em along. Barring that you can usually find a log to roll over, or even a stray rock. Worst case find a solid downed branch to use as a digging stick. I have never in my life found a need for a trowel.

What about in the desert, would you need a trowel then? Isn't the ground in the desert really hard?

"...just turn over a rock that's partially embedded in the ground. Instant cathole"

Just be gentle putting the rock back... Don't drop it!

I use a tent stake or boot heel, but I'm going to have to try the "rock & roll duece" the next time nature calls.

+1 on using the snow stake as a trowel and backup/additional tent stake. Around here there's not much chance of getting anywhere trying to dig with a stick or a boot heel. The snow stake works just as well as any trowel I've used, and I use it when I need to guy out my Moment in heavy wind.

One could always biffy in a jiffy. No need to dig a hole.

http://biffybag.com/how-it-works.htm

Mont Bell Ti Handy Scoop.

1) I got it cheap
2) Trail bling--- I mean, geeze, a titanium pooper scooper!

I'm thinking about a Kabota. I could level campsites, move blow-downs, and ride it!

Edited by dwambaugh on 06/07/2011 22:14:42 MDT.

You do realize that the Montbell trowel is less than 2/10th of an ounce heavier than a SMC snowstake and has no holes, so you can really dig with it. Can use as a stake also. Cut the webbing off for instant weight savings!

Edited by kthompson on 06/07/2011 22:54:07 MDT.

Gday Dale,

Remember this: French whipping my potty trowel ?

I do, after all these years!

Edited by lushy on 06/07/2011 23:31:34 MDT.

I'm surprised nobody has cross referenced to this thread: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=47684
Extra-lightweight TI potty trowels which can double as an extra stake, much lighter than the snow stake. I just got one!

Edited by hikinggranny on 06/08/2011 14:43:23 MDT.

If you are in the desert, watch out for scorpions when you turn the rock over (voice of experience speaking).

Don't any of you use your nice, clean, light, long handled titanium eating sporks as your poo trowel? What happened to multi-purpose? That spork/poo-trowel can also function as a spare tent stake! : )

So far I have only been in one place where I couldn't just use my heel or a rock or stick to dig a poo hole. That place was in the himalaya. All this tight grass everywhere and the ground was so hard I couldn't dig a hole at all and all the rocks were too big to push over.

Easy:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=48171


I got the original. It.s .4oz on my scale. I've tested it in the field and it works well. Do I need it? No. Is it awesome? Yes.

"Do I need it? No. Is it awesome? Yes."

And that, my friend, is more than good enough for me!

I can see the appeal of not carrying such a specialized item, but in my experience in the Sierras there is no way I could dig the recommended six inch deep hole by using my heel or a stick. And turning over a rock would rarely get me six inches down.

Plus, when you have to go you sometimes find the ground has smallish rocks and/or roots and it takes some real hacking, chopping, and prying to make a proper hole.

For me the standard orange plastic trowel works great, and I wouldn't leave home without it. I guess I'll just have to use it to eat my freezer bag cooked dinner to fit in with the ultralight crowd! : )

Agreed - I too have read a bunch of methods here and have tried testing them and run into issues.

Rock turnover - not deep enough. I could see turning over a rock and then digging as an effective concealment technique, however.
Stick - takes a really long time to get wide and deep enough.
Heel - Difficult to get deep enough and with my trail runners I end up with a bunch of dirt in my shoes I have to clean out. I believe this is partially/completely due to the fact around here I need to strike hard enough to cut through roots/moss/etc which causes a fair amount of spray. I could see this working well with traditional boots however.

For those that use a tent stake I'd like to know how long it takes you to dig.

Just got a big dig myself - came yesterday so haven't had a chance to try it.

Edited by rmkrause on 09/17/2011 23:44:38 MDT.

The Big Dig works great! I love mine!

Does the lack of pointiness of the Big Dig make it hard to penetrate tough turf or dig into rocky soil? I would think my pointy orange plastic trowel packs more pounds per inch when stabbing at tough soil and roots. How's the Big Dig working for you?

The orange trowel can break, whereas Rob's Big Dig won't. The thin metal will cut through small roots fine, and there really is no need for a pointed end on the Big Dig. An added bonus is that you will score extra "cool points" when comparing gear with strangers on the trail.

Doug says,
"I would think my pointy orange plastic trowel packs more pounds per inch "

You're absolutely right! The orange plastic trowel does indeed pack more pounds per inch! :D

Seriously, rocks don't phase it, and it goes thru fine roots with no problem.

You can use your trowel as a stake, a trowel and a shoe horn. Triple use. The Montbell one is just fractionally heavier than a SMC snow stake once you remove the webbing loop. I'm sure the BIg Dig works well too. I've broken too many of the plastic ones in that concrete like soil in southern CA.

Edited by kthompson on 09/18/2011 10:10:11 MDT.

> The orange trowel can break, whereas (Titanium) won't.
> The thin metal will cut through small roots fine,
+1 on both (from field experience).

Cheers

I'm sure the plastic trowel can break. Heck, I've broken titanium items.

That said, I've been using the same orange plastic trowel for decades, not counting a few times I've tried out snow stakes. I did cut the end off the handle to shorten/lighten it slightly (mostly to fit in the pocket it goes to), but it's never broken nor failed to dig a decent hole. It's easy to find at night (and day) being orange and I think it conveys what it is when I leave it stuck in the ground adjacent to our out-of-camp, multiuse latrine groove. It's not heavy, and not light I agree, but it digs better than a snow stake in my experience, both for speed and effectiveness.

I think it was 3 bucks and I'm pretty sure the same orange plastic trowel is still sold.

I use the amortized savings to justify my beryllium camp stove.

I like the Big Dig, I got one recently and used it in Big Sur for 8 days last week, which tends to have rocky soil. You have to do a lot more scraping when you hit rocks, and you can't really pry them out unless you use your hands, which is how I did it, but other than that it's fine. Also has a nice secondary use of protecting the cheap soda bottle holding alcholol fuel in my backpack side pocket, since its curve is about the same as the 20 oz soda bottles (and I definitely don't trust that bottle on its own over a long trip). And you can use the tyvek envelope it comes in as a case.

Without tyvek: 15.7 gm
with tyvek: 19.2 gm

weights vary since these are handmade items.

I don't really think the lack of a point matters, when you hit rocks the point isn't going to help you much anyway.

I'd used ordinary garden trowels before, which are without any question superior in every way except size and weight. Last normal one I used, about 4.5 oz, I did pick up a plastic one, that was lighter, I think about 3oz, but I never used it. If I were given the task of digging a larger hole for a group I think I'd just bring a real trowel and call it a day though.

Edited by hhope on 09/20/2011 16:05:55 MDT.

I've found if you can hold it a bit until you find a gopher, you can give him a nice gift using the soft dirt pushed out of his hole.

Or the mouse tunnels found at high altitude!

You two are deranged! Must be the economy...Or is this what ladies do when they hike solo, when they think nobody will know? What about it, Kat, Diana V., is this the way it is? Dr. Ide, would you be so kind as to hold a counselling session with these lost souls? We must get them under control before PETA finds out what they do out there.

Edit--it's PETA, not PITA, silly

Edited by Zia-Grill-Guy on 09/21/2011 14:04:47 MDT.

"We must get them under control before PITA finds out what they do out there."

It certainly borders on animal cruelty.

--B.G.--

"Edit--it's PETA, not PITA, silly"

You mentioned Kat P., so I think PITA was correct......

I can't speak for anyone else, but I use my titanium poo trowel.

At times it's just perfect. Plus I battle gophers at work and at home all the time , so there!
Not that often, but yeah...

I like that we are talking p++p here!

I've broken two orange trowels, not worth having for Sierra trips. I had been using a wide tent stake I modified slightly, the Big Dig I have now is only a tiny bit lighter, but easier on the hand and protects small gear in the outside pocket on my pack.
Duane

Aluminum Stake wrapped in some cord. The cord provides a great handle, and is also functional if I need some rope (which are circumstances I've definitely run into before and it has saved my ass) and the stake works for my tent setup very well. :)

Edited by jdemonaco on 10/13/2011 13:23:25 MDT.

DIY is hard to beat for price, weight and functionality. At 15g and 70c material cost in my favourite DIY material (Al-u-Drillium), this started life as 20cm of 15 x 15 x 1.4 mm angle from any hardware store and ended up (flared to 2 cm width in the digging end) as a multi-functional trowel / back-up peg. Like all lightweight gear you can break it if you want (use it as a crowbar), or use it sensibly for a very long life. For the latter, first dig vertically the required hole shape for your deposit, then spade out the loosened soil / cut roots / excavated stones. You do not need Kubota dimensions for this purpose - if you miss the target, push the deposit in with a stick after the event. Depth is more important - 100-150 mm (4-6") for rapid recycling without risk of infecting and offending those who pass nearby later.

The sharpened end cuts small roots. The retained (but widened) V shape helps with strength, and with lifting out the soil. The holes in the grip portion are for the weight-obsessive (holes in the spade end would make about as much sense as holes in a bucket). I did not need to heat-anneal the angle before hammering it to the desired shape in a few stages over a few minutes.

Here all of you have been talking about catholes, digging catholes, and implements for digging catholes for months, and I missed it. Gotta be more vigilant.

Anyway, I can't resist some comments now that I found the thread.

First, I appreciate all the kind comments here and elsewhere from the many BPL'ers who use and approve my Original and Big Dig titanium trowels. Glad you like 'em so much. I'm still making them one at a time, by hand, in my basement. So if anyone was wondering, they are made in the USA. Go to QiWiz.net to order if you are so inclined.

You might ask yourself, what kind of trowel does Rob use? Well actually, I use a one-of-a-kind hybrid that's a little bigger than an Original and a little smaller than a Big Dig. Other than the size, it's made just like my other trowels. I have more than 1000 trail miles hiking with it, and it's still going strong. Here's a photo:



OK, enough on my gear. Now for some comments about the issue of backcountry human waste disposal. Yes, I mean POUP! We can also euphemistically call these "deposits".

Implements: Whatever works for you to dig your cathole is not important. So if you find that your boot heel or a stick does the job, or a plastic trowel, or a tent stake, that is just fine. In my experience in the Eastern and Western USA, I frequently encounter soils that I could not possibly excavate with my shoe or a stick in any reasonable period of time. I also tried and broke numerous plastic trowels, which was one of the reasons I developed my own tougher titanium trowel. Even a sturdy, heavy, garden trowel that works well in most soils does not work well in dense grassy turf. For that you need a much thinner sharper option, like mine. A tent stake, especially if sharpened, can be good at loosening soil in your cathole, but in my experience takes much longer to dig with because (unless you use your hands), you need something wider to scoop the loosened soil out of your hole.

Advanced Cathole Techniques: In digging a cathole, the whole point of it is to help your waste decompose as quickly as possible, and not contaminate water sources, the trail, or a campsite. So site selection is important. Hence the recommendation to be 200 feet (70 big steps) from water, trail, and campsite. The advice to dig 6 inches down is sound in forest duff with a deep layer of organic biologically active soil. Where topsoil is thinner, you still want to make your deposit in, and mix it well with this biologically active layer, so this may mean adjusting your cathole depth. Deposits made in mineral soil will take much longer to decompose. TP, if you use it, should either be mixed really well with your deposit, water, and soil or packed out. To do this, use a stick, or even a longish rock, not your trowel. This will result in better and faster decomposition. This technique is known as making POUP SOUP, and the full recipe is included with every one of my trowels.

What about the rock-moving method? I've certainly had to go in an area with little or no biologically active soil around, and just rocks from the size of big sand grains up to big boulders. In this situation, moving a rock to create a hole to put your deposit into is sometimes the best you can do, but I would always try to see if I had a better option. Usually you can at least find a bit of biologically active soil to mix in to your hole, or dig further down after the rock is moved, or something of that nature.

Edited by QiWiz on 03/04/2012 09:26:45 MST.

Rob, will having one of your Big Dig trowels make catholing so much fun that my boyfriend will agree to hike somewhere there is no pit toilet? He says that after doing the Wonderland Trail, he doesn't want to hike anywhere for more than a couple of days where he has to dig a cat-hole! That lets out a lot of territory!

"he doesn't want to hike anywhere for more than a couple of days where he has to dig a cat-hole!"

Let me get this straight... Two days of cat-holing is OK, but more than two days is not OK? Yes, there are therapists who can deal with that.

--B.G.--

I didn't say it made sense, Bob, just that that is what he said yesterday.

He should be careful what he says. Now he's getting a titanium poo-trowel for his birthday!

Maybe it's like Popeye:

I's Had All I Can Stand, and I Cain't Stand No More!

"Now he's getting a titanium poo-trowel for his birthday!"

Wow. That's about as romantic as you can get! Not.

--B.G.--

Well, then, he shouldn't have gone ahead and bought the electric bass tuner that I'd already purchased for his birthday, or the electric bass amp that I was going to give him money for!

What's a gal to do?

Clearly Diane has figured out what to get the man who has everything (or at least a tuner and amp). Once this guy has a Big Dig, he'll be after her (to go backpacking) for days on end. My diagnosis: She really digs him.

I prefer to think of my Big Dig as a multitool. Knife, spoon, spatula, shoe horn, stirrer, stake, funnel, and trowel..

Diane,

Maybe a copy of "How to Sh*t in the Woods," by Kathleen Meyer will help?

3 pages and no one has mentioned hiking sticks? Sharper than a regular stick, and won't break. Not as functional as a trowel, but more productive than a stick or heel, and most of us already have two of them!

> and most of us already have two of them!
That might be pushing the bounds of credibility a shade too far. Many of us regard them as nothing more than one of marketing's finest spins.

Cheers

Post a picture of a legitimate cat hole via trekking pole.

I have a custom made poo peg .
The custom part is user activated and consist in turning the stake around and using it like a hoe rather than a trowel.


I wonder if I can write Shithole ...

Franco

has got me shaking my head. I mean, how many tens of thousands of years have humans been doing this? Titanium poo trowels now, next year unobtanium. Where will it all end? Just freakin' use a stick, roll over a rock, whatever, then do your business and boogie on down the trail. Sorta simple when you think about it for a millisecond or two.......

Tom
Your are missing the obvious BPL solution
A poo trowel made with a Ti frame and Cuben body ( of course the heavier bombproof type Cuben)
I bet that it will be a few grams lighter than the full Ti version and easily twice the cost , therefore a better solution.
Franco

Multi use
I am thinking now that with a bit of bodywork I could turn my peg/trowel into a long handle spoon as well.
Just in case I came across one of them XUL guys without a one...

"A poo trowel made with a Ti frame and Cuben body ( of course the heavier bombproof type Cuben)
I bet that it will be a few grams lighter than the full Ti version and easily twice the cost , therefore a better solution."

By that logic, substitute Unobtanium for Ti and you'd have the ultimate solution. They don't call it Unobtanium for nothing. That might lure even me into the market. But I'll bet that still wouldn't get Mike C. to bite. ;=)

"Post a picture of a legitimate cat hole via trekking pole."

You think someone's heel, or a found stick will do better? You didn't request pics of those suggestions...
Next time I have to dig a cat hole in the woods, I'll try to remember to take a pic of it just for you.

Wilderness wanderers have NOT been burying their poo for thousands of years! They've just been pooing on the ground wherever they felt like it, or when in a community, wherever their community told them to.

It is only very, very recently that we wilderness wanderers have been told to bury our poo and TP (if used) in the top 6-8" of soil.

I'm just going to leave this here:

Dispose of Waste Properly

"But I'll bet that still wouldn't get Mike C. to bite."

Good.

There is a bit of a conflict between minimizing impact on the environment and other people, and minimizing pack weight.

The former can be accomplished easily by packing it out.
The latter can be accomplished by simply making deposits anywhere without any consideration for the environment or other people.

One of the worst cat hole options, from a LnT perspective, is moving the rock to create a cat hole. The optimal location for a cat hole is in moist, biologically active soil, well removed from water and human activity, and exposed to sunlight. Mix the poo with the soil and restore the ground cover. Poo under a rock will last a very long time.

I use my trekking poles to dig my cat holes. If the ground is so hard that I can't dig with a stick, then it is likely not a good place to be making a deposit from a LnT perspective. If I can't dig in biologically active soil, I just make my deposit in a zip lock, not hard at all by holding the bag open against the backside, and then pack it down the trail until I can find a great place to dig a cat hole or some type of facility. Those that can't poo in a zip lock can just do it on the ground and then pick it up with the bag. Anyone who has a dog, at least anyone who is considerate, has had a lot of practice using plastic bags to pick up steamers and there is no significant difference between doing it for your dog and doing it for yourself except that human poo is a significant health hazard to other people because it carries human diseases. It is important not to just throw human waste in the trash, where it will end up in a landfill, although there are products such as poo powders that make it safe to do so.

The assumption that the location of evacuation and the location of disposal must be the same creates a lot of problems in the outdoors. Once it is understood that this assumption is false and that we can eliminate in one location and dispose in another, then life is much easier. It is often easy to find a great location to eliminate, and it is not that hard to find a great location to dispose, but it is often hard to find one location that is perfect for both.

Just as a dog owner should be considerate and clean up after his dog, a hiker should be considerate and clean up after himself. Turning over a rock for an instant cat hole might do a good job of removing the poo from our vision, but it is one of the worst options from a LnT standpoint.

It is easy to minimize your pack weight by just dumping your trash along the trail instead of packing it out, but of all the trash we can leave behind, the impact of human waste on other humans using the trail is the worst. If the choice is between properly disposing of your poo or your Budweiser empties, please just dump your cans and carry out your poo. I would much rather encounter your empty cans than your poo.

I think a cat hole trowel is just as unnecessary as a hatchet. If you need a tool to prepare firewood, then it is wood you should not be burning in the first place. If you need a specialized tool to dig a cat hole, then it is likely a poor place to dig a cat hole and you should just pack it out. Neither item belongs in the pack of a conscientious user of our outdoor resources.

Edited by RHanson on 07/27/2012 09:46:11 MDT.

"One of the worst cat hole options, from a LnT perspective, is moving the rock to create a cat hole. Poo under a rock will last a very long time."

I have to disagree with you on this one, Richard, speaking from years of personal experience with the "under a rock" technique. I have examined many rocks I used in a high/remote area of the Sierra where I frequently return, out of exactly the same concern you express. After 9 months to a year, there is almost no trace of anything having been deposited, or no trace at all. The most I have ever found has been a small, shrivelled piece of material barely recognizable as a former deposit. What is left of the TP after I burn it has completely decomposed. I wet the TP, either by urinating on it(preferred method to add nitrogen) or dousing it with water, to eliminate any possibility of fire. A properly selected rock, well gardened afterward to restore the material at the margins thereby concealing its use as a cat hole, is an excellent choice for relieving oneself, IME. Now, if that doesn't bring Mike C. out of the bushes, I'll be really worried about him.


"The optimal location for a cat hole is in moist, biologically active soil, well removed from water and human activity, and exposed to sunlight."

Agreed, but many of us hike in areas less than optimal for decomposing human waste. That is why I add a little extra moisture to aid the process in the high alpine areas I frequent. Along with the moisture provided by rain and snow melt, itseems to get the job done.

As for using a zip loc baggie, I have yet to have any trouble finding a suitable place before I lose control of my sphincter. That said, to each their own. SYOS.

Edited by ouzel on 07/29/2012 20:07:03 MDT.

I could dig a cathole with a stick, or with my hiking pole or my spork... but it's faster, easier and happier with a little shovel. My little orange shovel is easy to spot, too, and that's handy from time to time.

I don't need it, but it's useful and I like it.

Its pretty disturbing that members here are lifting up rocks instead of burrying thier shi t. We all know what the right thing to do is.

"Its pretty disturbing that members here are lifting up rocks instead of burrying thier shi t."

Would you mind explaining the logic, if any, behind your equally disturbing statement? If you can come up with anything beyond an ill informed opinion to back up your statement, I'll be more than happy to debate the subject with you.

"We all know what the right thing to do is."

LOL

Oh, you guys need to go high-tech! (I jest)

On Tuesday, I was hiking Mount Whitney. Each hiker picking up a permit is issued one Acme Brand Human Waste Pack-Out Kit. No batteries required. Instructions are included. It includes a plastic "target", some kitty litter, and some TP, and it all seals up tightly after use.



Previously, this wilderness area was receiving far too much impact from hikers, and especially from anybody digging their catholes all around in just a few concentrated areas. So, now everybody is issued their own kit, and there is a disposal bin at the bottom of the trail. On the other hand, if you were backpacking the entire John Muir Trail from south to north, then you get to carry the kit, either new or used, the entire distance of over 200 miles.

I know, I know. Tom is sitting back there thinking, "What will they think of next?"

--B.G.--

"I know, I know. Tom is sitting back there thinking, "What will they think of next?"

Actually, what I'm thinking is that WAG Bags are an idea whose time has come in anthill situations like Mts Whitney, Rainier, Denali, et al, and probably in the near future for high density trails like the JMT. I have no issue with that whatsoever. What I do have an issue with is ill informed acolytes of The High Priest of Poo braying on about The Way, The Truth, and The Light when it comes to LNT poo practices in the wilderness. There are simply too many different environments out there for one size to fit all. I could go on about how useless a poo trowel is when traversing endless talus, rocky soil, moraines, glaciers, root laced soils in the Cascades, etc, but I will leave it to each one to figure it out for themselves. This is not to poo poo the use of trowels in lowland or even highland areas where the soil is suitable, but merely to point out that there are environments where they are dead weight and the simplest approach is to make use of the pre-dug cathole provided by prising a medium sized, partially embedded boulder out of its socket and carefully replacing it after taking care of business. No muss, no fuss, no bother, at least as LNT as digging a cathole, almost impervious to curious critters except for REALLY hungry bears, avoids damage to roots in heavily vegetated areas, and prevents partial washing away in the event of serious rainfall or spring runoff.

Nice to see people arguing about how to leave little trace, these types of threads generate lots of good info. Tom, thanks for pointing out the rock stuff, that's good to know too, and I'm glad you have empirically verified your claims by revisiting sites a year later.

Would be interesting to see that data for under rocks for different climates, dry, wet, humid, alpine, and so on.

Not sure why however you are so opposed to a little .5oz ti poo trowel, those things are nice, I just used it on a 5 day trip in the cascades, it was nice, really helped in the soil up there, a stake would not have done much in that case. Plus it's easy to slice out a circle of the top moss/whatever, put it the side, make the hole, refill it, and put the top circle back on.

The dislike of such things can't be based on the use of unnatural or unsustainable techniques, I mean, we all walk around with some 10 plus pounds of hydrocarbon petrochemical based synthetic stuff on our backs and bodies, right? A trowel like the big dig weighs 1/2oz give or take, it's not some mass of dead weight in my pack, I use it every day. And if I don't, that's fine, I don't always use everything every day.

ti is a good material for these trowels, it's the absolute minimum you can have and still have it be functional. I've dug too many cat holes where others have been before me to relish the notion of scooping it out with my hands, heh.

Now if you want something real to worry about, read this article. That's about how our actual daily lives, and what's required to sustain them, is impacting deep systems in our environment. By the way, I noted what that study said up in the Cascades too, just like I have everywhere else in recent years:

"When I returned a year later, nothing appeared to have changed at first glance. No stumps or debris — just conifers and lush understory. But to the ear — and to the recorder — the difference was shocking. I’ve returned 15 times since then, and even years later, the density and diversity of voices are still lost. There is a muted hush, broken only by the sound of an occasional sparrow, raptor, raven or sapsucker. The numinous richness of the original biophony is gone."

Personally, this is what I am worried about, I've been noticing this more and more, and it's a direct sign of how deeply human culture is impacting stressed wilderness and other less populated areas. I am not worried about carrying an extra 1/2 ounce of material in my myog backpack, to be honest.

I think it's important to keep in mind that what is appropriate and effective in one area may be inappropriate and/or ineffective in another. I've hiked places where my shoe heel does a great job of digging a cathole, places where the only option short of power tools and explosives is to search for a rock which can be turned over, and places where the only ethical solution is to pack it out in a wag bag. In the mid-Atlantic green tunnel where I do most of my hiking, a tool which can cut through a network of thin surface roots is essential. Currently I'm using a Fiskars plastic garden trowel with cut-down handle, but my inner gear freak really wants a Big Dig.

Back in my traditional hiker days I carried one of these.



Then I discovered this website and it became one of these.



Later I got caught up in the dual use movement. ;-)



But it wasn't really dual use. If the tent was up I was out of luck. So I either carried a trowel, an "extra stake" or used a stick.

So now I am back to this.



It's 0.31 ounces heavier than the MSR Blizzard stake which I have since retired to the gear closet. I secure my tent with Ti shepherds hook stakes and dig my cat holes when needed with my modified plastic trowel.

As far as the leave no trace ethic goes, animals have "gone" in the woods for centuries. To my knowledge very few of them cover up or pack out their "souvenirs". I very much doubt any of the animals look for a spot 200 feet or more off trail and below and away from a water source before they relieve themselves. In fact in the Grayson Highlands the hiker's water source by Thomas Knob Shelter is fenced off to keep the wild ponies away.

IMHO there is no real harm done by a responsible hiker who "goes" way off trail, in a cat hole below and away from water sources and "covers his tracks" well.

That being said last year I covered 100 miles on the AT and had no need for a single cat hole. On the more highly traveled trails the availability of privies and trail towns compensate fairly well for the increased number of hikers and decrease the need for cat holes. YMMV

Party On,

Newton

One thing about that LNT page caught me by surprise. They urge you you to build any fire you do build on a pre-existing fire site. Then they say "Burn all wood and coals to ash, put out campfires completely, then scatter cool ashes."

I understand everything they are saying other than why I should want to scatter the ashes. If my fire was on a pre-existing (evidently permanent) fire site, why not leave the ashes in place?

1) Unnecessary strewing of ashes does not sound LNT to me
2) Most people will have at least a little charcoal in their ashes -- and that will degrade very slowly. Better to let it remain in the established fireplace.

What am I missing?

I think the ashes spread vs. buried in place issue is one outside the scope of the much more important, "how do you dig a cathole?" issue this thread is intended for.

Hey, I have the same trowel as John/Newt!

Here's a swing on the LNT issue: when I hit a campsite with multiple people or where there's more than one day to stay, I believe that both impact and effort are minimized with a latrine trench, which is refilled sectionally as it's used. When completed and recovered, there's a linear concentration of waste, but a minimized number of holes and locations.

Of course, there is only one way to dig such a thing and anyone doing it differently is just plain wrong. :)

"Hey, I have the same trowel as John/Newt"!

Erik,

How did you come by yours?

I was looking at a post that described how easily broken the plastic trowels were in their factory new configuration. The OP of the thread described how his had broken about mid way up the "scoop" section. He said that he proceded to use what was left to finish the job. To his amazement not only did it work but it seemed to do an equal if not better job. Upon returning home he headed for the workshop to shape and file the broken trowel into what inspired me to modify mine as pictured in my post above.

FWIW Along the AT at shelters where there isn't a privy some thoughtful trail maintenance types usually leave a real full size steel and wood shovel. It's not quite as HD as Dale's Kubota up above but I have seen other hikers drop their pack, pick up the shovel and hurry off into the bushes. ;-)

Party On,

Newton

John, I'm not completely up on the actual biology of the question of human waste, but I believe the basic takeaway is that we are, simply put, very dirty animals, with very bad diets, and a lot of very unhealthy organisms in our systems. So our waste is different than normal wild animal waste. So leaving it uncovered means spreading diseases, since animals will then eat our waste, and then proceed to spread all of those lovely creatures we carry in our guts. I think that's the general idea anyway.

I can't remember how giardia first spread, but I believe backpackers were a key component of its spread. I'm rusty on the details though. Now I guess it spread as well via stock animals, and deer and some others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giardia

that article says the main cause of spread is person to person transmission, with water etc being second. But if it's right, which I assume it largely is, humans are the main vector.

So whether one uses rocks or cat holes, burying the waste is really a good thing to do. Maybe in some long lost past world where human impact was not as aggressive as it is here today, we could do like the other animals, but that world is gone.

By the way, it always cracks me up when someone posts about drinking unfiltered water, well, it looks clean... as if you can see tiny protozoa, or smell them, or whatever.

Edited by hhope on 08/06/2012 12:12:11 MDT.

Harald,

"So leaving it uncovered means spreading diseases..."

I never suggested leaving "our" waste uncovered. I merely stated that most of the animals do not dig "cat holes". I do believe the term came about because of our feline friends. ;-?

Read on down further in my earlier post.

"IMHO there is no real harm done by a responsible hiker who "goes" way off trail, in a cat hole below and away from water sources and "covers his tracks" well".

"goes" - relieves himself

"covers his tracks" - after placing a sufficient amount of dirt over the waste the hiker places a large rock, dead fall or some other suitable object over the site.

"below and away from water sources" - self explanatory

"So whether one uses rocks or cat holes, burying the waste is really a good thing to do. Maybe in some long lost past world where human impact was not as aggressive as it is here today, we could do like the other animals, but that world is gone".

I agree that burying the waste is a really good thing to do. But again I never suggested otherwise.

I don't want to see, smell or walk up on someone elses deposit while I'm hiking.

Party on,

Newton

Bob, that page was just misleading in the way that it is written. Scattering your ashes only applies to fires outside of designated rings. When making a fire outside of a ring, I always crush up the coals by stomping with my foot. Big coals sit around forever, ash and crushed up coals get washed away into the ground by the rain. Throw some dirt over the pile to conceal it too.
Doing that is so much better than building those stupid rock rings in lesser used places and ruining the perceived remoteness of the area. It's just trashy and does make it any safer.

"Not sure why however you are so opposed to a little .5oz ti poo trowel, those things are nice, I just used it on a 5 day trip in the cascades"

Harald,

I never said I was opposed to Ti trowels; i said quite the opposite, as should be clear if you read my last post. I just find no need to carry one myself. From my personal point of view, they are just dead weight and take up space, even if not much. However, I have no problem whatsoever with others choosing to use them. As I said: SYOS.

As for your 5 day trip in the Cascades, it nicely supports my statement that there too many mountain environments to apply a "one size fits all" approach to LNT. I live in Seattle, and have spent considerable time in the Cascades over the last 20 plus years, mostly climbing in the higher alpine zones where conditions differ considerably from those you describe on your 5 day trip. A trowel would not be very useful up there, where even an ice axe requires a bit of work to scratch out a cathole in many places. Much easier to either prise out a small boulder or pull back a fallen log(if you are at timber line). I suspect you were down a bit lower in heavily forested areas where the soil is, indeed, very appropriate for a trowel, if that is your preference. There are many different approaches to achieving LNT when pooing. Let us not blindly cast aspersions on those whose approaches differ from our own without first analyzing what they are saying. I am not referring to you here but, rather, a couple of rather condescending previous posts by people who obviously do not have much experience to the varied conditions encountered in different mountain settings.

Edited by ouzel on 08/15/2012 16:54:27 MDT.

I've hiked a bit
I've eaten, too
I do believe
It's time to poo!

But what to do about my poo?
Should I leave it in my shoe?
Should I put it in a sack?
Or hold a ziploc against my crack?

Should I just turn over rocks?
Perhaps it'll all fit in a sock!
A new Ti-trowel would sure be grand
To help bury my poo deep in the sand.

I can't just leave it in plain sight!
Gosh, even I know that's not right!
I guess I'll do what I always do.
It must work, no one's ever found my poo……

That leaves us wondering

What does he do with his poo?

We have a poet here! LOL, Doug!

How about Vapoorize.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpads8s5mik

Well, I still can't buy at ti trowel, because the old reliable, orange plastic trowel lives on. One thing I noticed this last trip, where I didn't dig all the trenches, is that the bright orange makes it easier to find where you're headed to when wandering out to "the site".

In comparison to the snow stake, which looks a lot cooler, the orange trowel was clearly preferred by all who had to dig in Sierran soil -- easier on the hands when chopping the top layer and better when scooping the deeper soil.

I think I know where Doug sits while composing poetry!

Easier on the hand...

Try using it this way :


Franco