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climashield xp vs, apex ?
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Terry Trimble
(socal-nomad) - F

Locale: North San Diego county
climashield xp vs, apex ? on 05/24/2011 21:19:53 MDT Print View

The big Climashield Xp vs, Apex question is their that much difference in warmth,compactablity,endurance,weight of the Apex. To replace the Xp filling with Apex filling shingled construction of MYOG Momentum quilt of mine. Any help with this question would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Terry

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: climashield xp vs, apex ? on 05/25/2011 06:37:13 MDT Print View

i wouldn't replace the XP until it is flat. The differences between XP and APEX are minor and it seems more visible on paper than in the field. Once the XP goes flat (should be some time yet) then of course update to APEX but i don't think it is worth getting rid of perfectly good XP.

-Tim

Terry Trimble
(socal-nomad) - F

Locale: North San Diego county
climashield xp vs, apex ? on 05/25/2011 10:33:13 MDT Print View

Thanks Tim I kinda figured their was not much difference between the the two climashield's. I just needed confirmation.
I was also thinking of neat redesign of my quilt with off set shingle construction using 2.5 oz apex to get a thicker effective loft a lighter weight quilt.

A variable temperature/replaceable insulation quilt:

I was also thinking of replaceable insulation quilt with a #3 zippered bottom draw string bottom exterior momentum quilt liner. A interior climashield apex insulation liner incased in a very light weight no seeum netting interior insulation liner that is velcro tabbed in place with 1/2" velcro on each corner and middle side and top and bottom in the the exterior momentum quilt liner.

Their are two reasons a owner could buy new insulation when needed when insulation is worn out and also wash just exterior momentum quilt liner after backpacking trip. The quilt owner would just purchase a new interior insulation liner when needed or they could buy different thickness of interior insulation liner one for winter made out of 5oz. apex late spring summer 2.5oz. apex. So basically you would have a variable temperature quilt used for a different seasons.
Terry

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: .
Re: climashield xp vs, apex ? on 05/25/2011 11:19:09 MDT Print View

IIRC, the CLO is the same for both.

Paul Elliott
(PaulElliott) - F
Variable insulation quilt on 05/26/2011 10:11:39 MDT Print View

Terry,

I made a variable insulation quilt last year for testing. Instead of what you described, I built a conventional 5osy XP quilt, and I left the top edge unsewn. The idea was to be able to insert a 2.5osy layer as needed.
At the top and bottom of the quilt, I used silk pockets sewn to the edges on the bottom and sewn to the edge and top of the insulation, which allows me to turn the whole thing inside out, insert the 2.5osy layer with the top and bottom in pockets, then turn it right side out again.

The results were interesting, but ultimately left me with a feeling that it's not worth it.
The pros:
1) It works fine, with virtually no extra weight
2) I cut the extra layer into 3 strips along the length to test if a variable amount of insulation on the top but not the sides was worthwhile, and if there would be any shifting of the 2.5 layer. The layers of XP seem to interlock enough to make it not matter, and even using adjacent strips didn't cause any issues for the target temps (not pushing the edge)
The cons:
1) Leaving an edge open is a hassle. It works, but a more practical solution would be to have a zipper or to hand stitch a straight stitch that can be pulled free when you want to swap insulation.
2) The pockets were useless. The silk had a tendency to pull out, and probably wasn't necessary since the XP seems to self grip fine.
3) Given the costs involved, I'd rather have dedicated quilts, built normally. Simpler, less to go wrong, and less to manage in the field. I know my tentmate would have preferred I had a simpler quilt and not made so much noise occasionally managing my quilt.

Looking at your idea, you could optimize it a bit by skipping a shell on the insulation, and just use an edge of silk sewn onto the perimeter, then perhaps use two or three strips across where the velcro dots are to help stabilize stresses. Velcro to the inner side of the shell rather than the outer shell. I like to leave my outer shell slightly loose to allow maximum loft, and use the inner shell to transfer any stress (shifting position, tightening down the quilt, etc). I don't think using a shingled approach is going to net you anything but construction hassle. Climashield is better off untouched.

I like to sleep extra warm (a little below sweating, honestly), and will take 5osy up to 70 degrees since my quilts can be opened flat. I prefer 7.5 total for ~20F, but have done fine with 5.0 and a layer of fleece on my body. Ron's descriptions for his Spirit quilts roughly mirror my opinion on warmth.

My variable insulation quilt is built with 5osy, and I can add whatever I want to it without worrying about velcro or other attachments. If you want to switch between 2.5 and 5.0, I would recommend building a normal 2.5 osy quilt with a straight stitch closure or zipper/thin velcro (your preference), then have a cut 2.5 osy layer you can insert for winter. When I wash my quilts, I do it by hand in a bathtub. Packing it in the field is probably a lot more rough on the insulation than washing it that way, so I don't think worrying about a seperable shell is worth it.

Basically, if you avoid my mistake of leaving an edge open, your idea of a variable insulation quilt would work fine, but I think you'd be happier by using a mostly conventionally built 2.5osy quilt, and inserting a plain cut 2.5osy layer for colder temps and having a simple zipper or straight stitch closure.

Terry Trimble
(socal-nomad) - F

Locale: North San Diego county
climashield xp vs, apex on 05/26/2011 10:53:42 MDT Print View

Paul thanks for your comments on your replaceable variable insulation quilt you built it gave me a lot of tips and why it not worth the hassle.

I have to disagree on the shingle construction of synthetic quilt almost all the sleeping bag manufactures use this type of construction for years in their products to eliminate cold spots and lighter weight sleeping bags.

Golite use it on their quilts that I own and experienced are warmer and less weight because of effective lofting of the layered shingles. It is hard way to construct a quilt but might be worth the effort.

I started this thread for all of us to learn about the pros and cons of Climashield Apex insulation . Also ideas to be thrown out their for new types of quilt construction . Since I have been making quite a few pack designs I have been trying to think up new and better ways to make light backing packing gear.
It's kind of fun to think outside the box.
Terry

Paul Elliott
(PaulElliott) - F
XP and Apex on 05/27/2011 10:17:10 MDT Print View

I don't think I've ever seen a shingled style quilt design for Climashield. My impression has always been that that style of construction is for synthetic insulation that requires quilting/stabilization, like primaloft or polarguard.

As far as XP vs Apex, the specs have always appeared to me to be designed to have identical warmth for a given thickness, while the osy is slightly different (5.0osy vs 4.8osy). The exact numbers for clo and weight vary depending on where you look but my impression is simply that the XP and Apex are functionally interchangeable for construction and warmth, but the Apex specs out slightly lighter for the same warmth.

I recall early discussions of XP and Apex reported slightly different clo values, but identical osy, which made Apex look better on paper, but once Apex became available, the thicker version was either reported as 4.8 or 5.0 osy, and usually the same clo. The arc of available information led me to the above conclusion of functional equivalence.

That also means to me that when one talks of the relative benefits of XP and Apex for a quilt, other design factors (shell material, footbox style, pad mating style, etc) are far more likely to influence the comfort and long term outcome of the design.

I'll be building several Apex quilts this year with the same basic design as my variable insulation XP quilt, so I'll be able to compare the two for myself later this year. I expect to be incapable of telling the difference.

I'll be interested in how your quilt design progresses. I'm a big fan of thinking outside the box. I've got the carbon fiber splinters and yards of cuben fiber to prove it :)