MYOG Materials
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Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
MYOG Materials on 11/12/2006 21:58:26 MST Print View

Hi all,

We are considering stocking MYOG materials in the BPL store. What would y'all like to have here?

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
MYOG Materials on 11/12/2006 22:27:08 MST Print View

1. Pertex Quantum.
2. Polarguard Delta.
3. eVent - in a light weight per sq yard.


I can dream can't I?

Michael Demchak
(mikey) - F

Locale: new england
Re: MYOG Materials on 11/12/2006 22:44:15 MST Print View

I would also love to see polarguard Delta and eVent. in addition, could you source smaller amounts of hydrophobe thread? i could get 6000 yards from thru-hiker.. but 6000 yards is a little much for a cheap MYOG'er imho. my dream, would be for you guys to source some cuben fiber.
mike!

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Re: MYOG Materials on 11/13/2006 01:47:10 MST Print View

Dennis,

if BPL can't stock the hydrophobe thread you need, you might POST in the Forums to see if anyone is interested in splitting the cost with you.

i did this last year on a different item. had to buy 50 quantity. didn't need or want 50. nine or ten others wanted some, so i ordered and sent the items to them. without exception, they all immediately rendered payment to me upon receipt of the items.

IME, the folks on these Forums, particularly the regulars, are all top-notch and rock honest.

Edited by pj on 11/13/2006 01:47:44 MST.

carlos fernandez rivas
(pitagorin) - MLife

Locale: Galicia -Spain
materials on 11/13/2006 04:52:15 MST Print View

maybe cuben fiber ?

J W
(jhaura) - F

Locale: www.Trailability.com
Re: MYOG Materials on 11/13/2006 09:18:24 MST Print View

How about BPL Patterns? A nice poncho tarp and spin chaps pattern, hooded vest pattern, quilt pattern and bivy pattern. These are out there in traditional backpacking style, but it would be nice to have specific SUL ones.

Fabrics: Pertex Quantum, eVent and cuben.

Neil Bender
(nebender) - F
Re: MYOG Materials on 11/13/2006 12:33:03 MST Print View

I'd like to see a 1.0 oz (or 1.1 oz with DWR) polyester mini-ripstop for wind-wear. Polyester is hydrophobic and plenty durable enough in this use and dries much faster than nylon. gray or black are good colors. 1.8 oz Polarguard Delta is also a good item for mitts, hats, vests, insulated gaitors, bag liners, overbags, etc.

David Wills
(willspower3) - F
Re: MYOG Materials on 11/13/2006 15:25:26 MST Print View

Primaloft One would be great, if the price can be reasonable.

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
Re: MYOG Materials on 11/13/2006 17:52:18 MST Print View

I would discourage BPL from trying to handle materials. It is a thankless business and other materials suppliers who have been at it a long time are have their supplies worked out. And getting the goods is what ragging is all about. You gotta have the contacts.

On the other hand, you might consider providing a sourcing service. Several months ago, several of us forum addicts started a sourcing thread here. That kind of petered out after we had told all we know. Petered out means disappeared into archives. However, a good sourcing index would be of immesurable benefit to MYOGers, I believe. It would relieve BPL of the really nasty job of selling yard goods (You really don't know what you are getting into) and it would let the poor folks who are already in that sorry business do what they do best.

Edited by vickrhines on 11/13/2006 17:54:14 MST.

Jason Klass
(jasonklass) - F

Locale: Parker, CO
Titanium on 11/13/2006 18:23:47 MST Print View

What about more titanium options like different thicknesses of titanium sheeting, titanium rods, titanium tubing (if it exists).

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
MYOG Materials on 11/13/2006 18:57:15 MST Print View

Hi Vick,

I both agree and disagree with your thoughts about BPL selling MYOG Materials.

Where I disagree is if BPL can sell some of the specialty material (really Special) such as Pertex Quantum, Polarguard Delta, some types of eVent, and others that are not available at our normal fabric suppliers then I say YES sell these items. I am sure BPL would have a small minimum of say 5 yards each of any material or insulation to make it worth doing. That would be fine with me as long as the colors were nice.

There are a few Hardware items that also have very high minimums that it would also be nice to buy in small amounts of say 10 or 12.

The big problem in selling the really special stuff is that some of these companies will not let that material be sold as yardage or at retail. Another problem is the high minimums that some companies require to make any purchase. If Ryan has a way to get around this then I say go for it.

Over the last few months I have been able to work the "Materials" sources to the point where I can buy anything I want wholesale "IF". The last piece of the puzzle fell into my lap today. The big IF is that I may have to meet a "minimum" for some things that I may not want to and that I can not retail any of the really "special" material. I can make things for my use and/or sell a finished product but I can not sell the material.

Do I want to start selling stuff? I am not sure at this point as I would be in direct competition with people I like.

On the other hand what do I do with the rest of a big roll of really great insulation and many yards of really great fabric?

Ryan Corder
(demo) - MLife

Locale: Arkansan in Seattle
Re: MYOG Materials on 11/13/2006 19:10:36 MST Print View

I'll definitely second the requests for Pertex, Cuben, and eVent. I would also like to see some of the Spinnaker fabrics...Spinn Pro would be especially nice :)

thanks.

David Wills
(willspower3) - F
Re: MYOG Materials on 11/13/2006 22:04:57 MST Print View

My 2 cents, but I personally see no need for Pertex or Delta. Momentum 90 and Climashield XP have both proven to fit the bill Pertex and Delta's lack of availability have made. eVent and Primaloft One on the other hand...

Frank Deland
(rambler) - M

Locale: On the AT in VA
sewing patterns on 11/14/2006 07:22:18 MST Print View

Rather than material, I would like to see sewing patterns. Someone on another thread posted about what he did with 5yds. of cloth. He gave dimensions for his tarp, pack, and bags that he made. Since I have no clue how to use CAD software, it would be nice to have a diagram for a catenary cut, like the one at Moon Designs. I would like to have more exact diagrams and patterns to avoid hang-the-string on the wall, seat-of- the-pants methods. Searching around the web, patterns can be found, but it would be nice to have a source. Maybe you could have a CAD expert create and sell CDs with the patterns, diagrams and photos. (The article was by Jay Ham in the "Techniques" section)

Edited by rambler on 11/14/2006 07:29:50 MST.

Jeffrey Dunning
(boredomhero) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Softshell on 11/14/2006 22:14:35 MST Print View

I would like some Cloudveil Inertia or maybe Schoeller Dynamic.

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
Re: MYOG Materials on 11/15/2006 20:44:29 MST Print View

Bill,
Yep, you are probably right about the rare stuff. You know, what I would like to see is a partnership with an accomodating mill to produce fabrics we could go nuts with. Something like Malden mills did with Polarfleece, etc. - working with folks who could appreciate it.

In general, if BPL were to do something like that, it would be better to go for a fabric that would let BPL corner a nich market... not only for the fabric but also for products using it well - as well. That would just be smart business. There is no use competing for a DuPont franchise on some new insulation or fleece where the potential market is huge and global. It just won't wash. But a nich product for a nich market would be just right.

As for hardware items, small hungry companies often will work with small buyers. Back longer ago than I want to remember, Fastex was very accomodating and traded prototypes for feedback. I still have some of the poorer efforts. Ought to bronze them.

Then, I can pipe-dream. For example:

First, how about a pack fabric so light that it would scare away uninformed buyers and conventional manufacturers? Like your Cuben pack, but really strong.

We have seen Spectra/nylon grid fabric in 4 oz weights and PU coating for light packs. Spectra with its low stretch would probably work better with polyester which has a similar modulus of elasticity and furthermore holds shape better, absorbs less water and is more UV resistant than nylon. A tight Spectra grid would more than make up for the polyester's lower strength. Then impreg and coat (both) with silicone so it won't start smelling like something the dog sicked up in a few months. Think of the weights you could get with good fabric strength and better performance than our good old 1.35-1.4 oz. silpreg. I'm willing to bet you could use 15D polyester with a 20D Spectra grid (Specrta deniers are lower than some other yarns, as I understand it, because if its lower density) and get a sub 0.7 oz fabric before coating. With a heavier, really waterproof silicone preg and coating the weight would probably go less than 1 ounce per yard for a usefully durable fabric for light packs - a fabric that really would be overkill for shelters... although conventional makers might find a use for it as tent flies and floors. If they could tear themselves away from polyurethane - which puts a 'use-by' date on every item containing it.

Then for shelter, I dream of something that, again, that would seem too light to work... and this one could be so light, no conventional manufacturer would be likely try to use it like we expect to.

Conservatively, a 1/16 inch grid of 10D Spectra and a web of 10D or microfiber polyester ought to be tarp worthy and weigh with silpreg less than 0.5 oz. Or a modern mill might even be able to make an intimate mix of yarns where the poly would be more like a filler with the Spectra to produce a flat weave closer to 0.3 ounce. Such fabrics might give Cuben a run for its money for both weight and strength. And should be sewable with more or less conventional methods available to MYOGers.

We talk a lot about fabric, but there are a couple of things that really add weight, buckles and straps. How about:

Tablar buckles and other fittings suitable for grossgrain ribbon. UL packs do not need much more than good nylon grossgrain, but no currently available tablars that I know of will work with it. Another angle is adjustable buckles or fittings what would work like tablar buckles with parachute cord or other small line.

And while we are on grossgrain, how about getting a mill to make a Spectra or aramid grossgrain - either pure or with a polyester fill. Aramid MuleTape is unbelievable stuff, and flat braided or grossgrain straps of similar material would certainly be adequately durable. To say the least.

The issue of patterns has been mentioned, and I'm all for that. Clothing in particular is my least favorite thing to prototype and make.

Edited by vickrhines on 11/15/2006 20:52:39 MST.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: MYOG Materials on 11/15/2006 21:02:31 MST Print View

Hey Ryan,
IMO, there are soo many people that normally post here that are just begging for this to happen. Having 1 source for the ultra-lite fabrics the majority wants, (especially cuben fiber and event) would be HUGE.
I think you would find that you will be sold out with a waiting list most of the time.
What you need to do is pass the word to include the MYOG projects, testing and reviews of the buyers in the MYOG Page in order to get more and more interested.
Expansion is never bad if it's a good thing.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Re: MYOG Materials on 11/15/2006 21:07:45 MST Print View

Vic, right on!

My head is spinning!

We don't need to take over the world, thank goodness. We need to INNOVATE!

This has been an excellent thread.

We have good things in store for the future with lots of ideas.

We will launch an MYOG store with some conventional but hard to get materials soon.

And, yes, we are working with mills to create new fabrics, and hardware shops to create new hardware that is custom built for ultralight materials, like the grosgrain webbing. The first of these will be in production soon, and will be part of trekking pole kits that allow you to build carbon poles w/grosgrain straps, baskets, good grips, for ... quite light :)

We also have ultralight and strong pack fabrics about dialed in, as well as a high bias shelter fabric that doesn't suffer the directional bias woes of Spinnakers and conventional ripstops.

Patterns for clothing: yes, absolutely. We are developing a pattern line for insulated clothing for youth/Scouts in kit form to start.

We had some Spectra webbing made. It's neat stuff, and we'll make that available as well.

More coming, thanks for your input!

Benjamin Smith
(bugbomb) - F - M

Locale: South Texas
Re: Re: MYOG Materials on 11/15/2006 21:08:21 MST Print View

Vick,

As far as hardware that would work with small line or cord, what about these?

Tarptent guyline adjuster widget small (from Contrail REVIEW)

I don't know where they can be sourced, but they could be used in an application where cord was used instead of webbing or grosgrain for pack strap adjustment, I would think.

Ben

Edited by bugbomb on 11/15/2006 21:10:28 MST.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
MYOG Materials on 11/15/2006 21:51:18 MST Print View

Ben,
You need to look harder. Not a very good picture and I will find out how much they cost etc on Thursday. I have had these for awhile but I like the ones that come in the "AirCore Pro Dyneema Guyline Cord Kit" from BPL.com better.



Vick,

I believe Paul at Thru-Hiker contracted with a US Mill to make Momentum90 for him. I also think the minimum yardage or pounds how ever it is made to get one color - Black - cost him about $10,000 to get it made. If we support Thur-Hikers effort with Momentum90 we may see other colors in the future. If Paul thinks Pertex Quantum - a direct competitor of his Momentum90 suddenly became available to us in small amounts why would he risk another $10,000 investment for another color or more colors. He does read this site and he has read this thread. I consider Paul a good friend and we have had many long conversations about all sorts of MYOG materials. He also knows very well that I want the lightest materials period. We have talked about my post here and my desire to be able to get Pertex Quantum and Polarguard Delta.

I don't see BPL.com ever being able to "corner" the market on some material nor would I expect them to.

The answer to being able to get the good stuff may only be to start producing and selling a few items. Then as a business we may be able to get most anything we want. I spent about an hour having a couple new sewing machines demonstrated to me yesterday. Do I want to go that way - not sure yet.

On the issue of "patterns" I make my own. They are not that hard and if you can make your own patterns then you should always end up real close to what you want.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/15/2006 23:01:45 MST.