I am going to be doing a lot of winter snow camping trips this coming winter so my question is if a bivy " katabatic bristlecone" and a tarp me and my buddy would probaly share a 10x10 vs. Me using my HMG echo 1 tarp separately this way we can also use a groundsheet under are bivys to increase warmth if we don't use a tarp/bivy combo our only other option right now is my marmot twilight 2 although a awsome tent it's not light at about 5lbs temps will be down to 0 so any reason not to use a bivy and large tarp ? I do have some money I'm saving in a gear fund and am interested in some tarptents "I don't know if I need one but I sure wouldn't mind having one ;)" but if a tarp/ bivy will work for most winter trips and anything they won't work for we could use my twilight and on the subject what's a good one that can withstand lots of wind snow and cold temps and fit 2 ? Thanks in advance for any advice and input

I think you need to out and spend ONE night in the snow in bad conditions somewhere safe where you can, if necessary, bail out at 2 am.

It's fine going SUL in the summer time when it isn't going to rain anyhow. It's quite different when the sun drops and the wind picks up and the snow is falling (or worse still, 0 C rain) and you are out there with inadequate gear and it's a long night ahead.

You need to get a bit more personal experience about the fan ... But that is how ALL of us learn about winter conditions. (CAUTIOUSLY!)

Cheers

I enjoy tarp camping in winter. I usually go out with the intent of building a snow shelter, but bring a tarp in the event that time is limited or snow conditions are inadequate. I also like to cowboy camp if conditions permit.

A tarp will not keep you as warm as a tent, and spindrift tends to blow farther then rain, making it likely that you will get dusted even under a 10 x 10 tarp. If you zip up the hood of the bivy, the mesh will keep this off your face, but condensation then becomes a slightly bigger problem. These disadvantages can be offset by building snow walls around the tarp.

I second Roger's advice. Try it in a place where you can easily bail out if needed (but not your backyard- that's too easy). I always bring a shovel. I also overcompensate with sleeping gear (-20 bag for the midwest) so there may not be a big weight savings, at least for me. I just enjoy the technique. Also, there is little chance of rain in the dead of winter here. Not sure what conditions are like where you are.

Personally I find that a flat tarp isn't sufficient for use in winter conditions with blowing snow.

I prefer to take a pyramid tarp and a bivy for my winter trips in northern Minnesota.

+1 to everything Chad wrote. Wind alone, with a rather negative effect on your sleeping situation, can make winter tarping less than ideal. If you can get your hands on a pyramid tarp or similar shelter to give you more protection, you'd be better off.

"Personally I find that a flat tarp isn't sufficient for use in winter conditions with blowing snow."

I'll echo that sentiment. I did a winter trip with a tarp and bivy several years ago in Vermont. Wound up camping on a ridgeline, with light snow blowing horizontally all night. Spindrift got into everything, covering the bivy under the tarp. No, I didn't die, and it wasn't really *that* bad, but I wasn't exactly "having fun" either. Decided that a simple tarp might not be the best for real winter conditions.

We even got into a situation where we stayed in a shelter along the Long Trail in VT. Because the prevailing winds were blowing directly into the shelter, and it was snowing heavily, we had to stretch tarps across the open side just to keep from getting covered in snow.

If you are in mountains with snow you will have a avi shovel with you and can augment
your tarp with snow walls etc. Even in the windy flatlands you can pile up snow with
your shovel and make a quonset shelter or part of one and cover it with your tarp.

Bring extra fuel for hot water bottles to keep you warm and drive out condensation from
your sleep system.

Dan Durston's posts about winter camping in his Echo I system might help -- he had pictures depicting what you're describing.

Oh, and I think your skis are too short ;)

Thanks for the input guys what's a good pyramid tarp with enough room for two that won't break the bank ?

For two people I'd go with one of the following:

Golite Shangri-La 3 ($275)
http://www.golite.com/Product/ProdDetail.aspx?p=370003110&mc=&t=&lat=


Oware 10' x 10' x 6' pyramid tarp ($249)
http://www.owareusa.com/tents.html


MLD Supermid ($295)
http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=47&products_id=130

I use a cuben MLD Duomid. But it's a little pricey, and could be cramped for two people based on how much space you'd like to have. It works for me and another person. And I'm sure the non-cuben Duomid is perfectly good.