I am thinking about a possible UL ascent up to the top of Mount Everest.
I am under the impression that the boots currently being used (including the full-gaither style "soft boots")weight way too much.
I am interested to learn if someone has any specific experience and/or any suggestion that may help.
Thanks
Filippo Pavesi

Filippo, Initially I laughed when I read about the concept of an UL ascent of Everest; shows my ignorance, because after looking at a couple guide company gear lists I see the recommended gear is not terribly onerous. Just more layers.
This site lists some recommended brands and models for each item; you could start by choosing the lightest of each and tell us the total?
http://www.alpineascents.com/everest-g.asp

Then, I bet the experts on this site could choose UL items which meet the same performance requirements and save you another "x" kg.

I was interested to see Feathered Friends listed as the best choice of bag; they have a high reputation here at BPL from what I've read. Wonder if a Montbell #0 EXP has ever made it up to camp 4?

Edited by Brett1234 on 06/07/2007 19:47:10 MDT.

You might take a look at Mark Twight's book, Extreme Alpinism....you might also be able to glean what type of boots Steve House used on Nanga Parbat by chasing down some of the articles.
These two come to mind when you speak of light weight at altitude.

Lightweight backpacking on Everest???

…The tent has to be strong enough to withstand gale force winds yet relatively small both to save weight (five pounds for a two man tent is typical) and to trap as much body heat as possible.

…You’d think you’d need the warmest possible sleeping bag at 26,000 feet, but I carry one rated good only down to zero degrees Fahrenheit. It weighs a mere four and a half pounds. I can get away with this because I wear all my clothes, except my boots, to bed.

--Excerpts taken from: No Shortcuts to the Top, by Ed Viesturs w/David Roberts

Courtesy of T. Vidnovic

Thank You to Brett, Larry and Victor for your interesting info.
I found I missed to explain which kind of Everest ascent I am talking about; I am thinking about a full supported speed-record attempt, as Bruno Brunod already made (http://www.mounteverest.net/story/EverestspeedrecordattemptBetweenC1andC2Jun32005.shtml)
As You may be aware Bruno is one of the world best "Skyrunners" of the FSA
(http://www.fsa-sky.org/site/flash/home/home.php)
We are pretty well aware about tents, apparel and other 8000meters stuff You better consider.
On the other hand we found that, in order to really go fast, the most critical issue is actually the high weight of the double insulated boots : (possibly) the best one on the market, the OLYMPUS MONS EVO by Lasportiva, weight 2500 grams/pair. Unfortunately, given that boots are mobile masses, this is too much to go fast.
It may be useful to know that, in the latest 8000meters boots, the like as the Olympus, insulation comes from the low density PE inner boot. On the other hand most so called "pack-boots", designed to perform in the worst condition, sport several layers of sinthetic insulation the like as Thinsulate (up to 1600 !).
Does anyone has any experience, or ideas, on which kind of insulated boot we may want to consider, or about whick kind of better boot we may want to design ?
Thank You for your help
Filippo

I used a pair of intuition alpine thermoflex boot liners all last winter, maybe paired up with an insulated super gaiter..I really hesitate to offer much advice, my only ascents in the Himalayas were basically tourist routes

Maybe Bill Fornshell can make you a pair from Cuben Sail Cloth and alveolite foam?

> the most critical issue is actually the high weight of the double insulated boots

This is where some serious 'systems' thinking is required. People travel around in other even colder places without such heavy padded boots - and are happy. Why then should we need double insulated boots on Everest?

Start asking why your feet get cold. It is NOT because of any failing of the lighter boots. It is because you aren't pumping enough heat down your legs into your feet, in the form of warm blood. Without that inflow of heat, extra insulation won't stop your feet from getting cold.

A similar story is found with sleeping bags and the extra padding some manufacturers advertise for the foot box. It's not very helpful if you haven't had a good dinner and if your head is cold.

What happens at altitude? Too often a climber says he is too tired to bother about melting snow and cooking dinner, and just goes to sleep. No energy, no water ... cold feet, AMS, ... It does not have to be that way.

The big advances will come from a change in attitude and discipline. Climbers who understand their physiology and what their body needs to really function will be able to travel faster and lighter than those who rely just on gear, climbing skills and macho. But it will take time for this understanding to percolate through.

Edited by rcaffin on 11/15/2006 13:41:45 MST.

Do you really think there are vast areas of improvement still possible over Messner's attitude, knowledge of his body, and his level of discipline? (I'm not arguing because that level of discipline is beyond my comprehension one way or the other.)

>The big advances will come from a change in attitude and discipline. Climbers who understand their physiology and what their body needs to really function will be able to travel faster and lighter than those who rely just on gear, climbing skills and macho. But it will take time for this understanding to percolate through.<

This observation asserts that a lot of folks do not already understand their physiology and how it effects their performance. I would not totally agree.

After watching the new reality show on Disco Channel last night (Everest expedition), I cannot imagine that any equipment would make or break success at that altitude beyond what your phsychi and physiology is up to. I am speaking in terms of weight more so than function or quality. To have success on Everest, I doubt there are very few folks who succeed without knowing their way around their own body. And even the most conditioned, mentally and physically prepared individual who relies on the best practices concerning their physiological well being can still fail. People's bodies are not created equal...and in an Olympic 100m dash or at 28000 feet, that becomes really clear.

I would also hold that most people attacking less complicated wilderness endeavours only need a couple "incidents" to realize there is more to this than equipment. When I say incidents, I refer to stuff like trying a Whitney Climb with an REI group and being totally out of shape...or traveling in really hot areas without proper hydration. Those kind of life experiences snap you into reality very fast. Those kind of bonk experiences generally divert folks 2 ways. Out of the persuit altogether, or into a more practical approach that provides for conditioning, nutrition, and understanding.

> Do you really think there are vast areas of improvement still possible over Messner's attitude, knowledge of his body, and his level of discipline?

Rheinhold Messner is an extreme example of what can be done! No question. But how many match him?

The point I was trying to make about really getting to understand your physiology is a bit like the arguments about SUL gear. Sure, a few of us know about it and practice it - but the vast majority of walkers don't - yet.

I could equally point to Ryan's efforts at SUL in the snow and the Arctic 1000: possible, but few walkers have gone that far YET.

In support of your position, at least as to physiology, is Mark Twight's book on fast and light mountaineering, in which he said he was still learning how to adequately fuel his body. He recommends a GU gel every 30 minutes (or something similar, I don't recall the exact timing) so as to add carbos to the blood stream without letting the digestive system cut in, which robs blood from the muscles. Even Messner probably could have improved in this area.

Speaking of feats comparable to those of Reinhold Messner, has anyone walked to the South Pole without a sled, skis, or wind sail? Maybe that is the next Big Thing? Several people, roped together to guard against crevasses, using SUL gear and carrying everything on their backs? It might not be possible, but I would enjoy seeing other people try it. (I ain't gonna try it, that's fer sher!)

Many thanks to Robert, Roger and Scott for your very interesting points; I completelly agree with Roger thoughts.
Still I 'd have to find out which is the boots concept that may provide the best insulation with the lower weight.I may like to undertsand more on Antartica-style footwear. I am also interested to really extreme insulating materials the like as Aerogel (=Frozen Smoke); I found it is being used for high performance JKT :
http://www.gzespace.com/new/eng/Sto_Qzero.html
I am wondering if we could use it in footwear. A part its(terrific) cost, does anybody may explain why Aerogel is not used for SUL apparel?
Many thanks
Filippo

> find out which is the boots concept that may provide the best insulation with the lower weight.
This is actually a very interesting question - which means it does not have a simple answer :-) You see, you need to ask 'which boot FOR WHICH ACTIVITY'.

Imagine you are sitting in an armchair at -40 F. Down booties would be excellent, beter than anything else. But you could not go ice climbing or skiing in them. For those activities the boot needs to grip the foot a bit better - and now you are restricting the blood flow.
You also need to ask where is the heat flow. Walking on ice at -40 C might mean most of the heat flow is out from the sole. No problem to wrap a down bootie over the top of the boot, but some serious insulation will be needed underneath.
Can you use aerogel? Much of that stuff is ultra-brittle. Not a good choice for a boot sole.
Trade-offs....

Edited by rcaffin on 11/19/2006 02:33:03 MST.

How about taking a pair of Nike Air Max running shoes and replacing the air with hydrogen? Since hydrogen has only one proton per nucleus, this should make the boots very light. However, under no circumstances, no matter how cold your feet get, should you set your shoes on fire.

Filippo, do you plan to go with a group or solo? The David Sharp solo incident last year was sad. Why he thought he should attempt that alone is beyond me. Discovery Channel has a good show about Everest this year. Anybody watching it?

discovery.com/Everest

Ok I have no experience with serious big mountain climbing but I'll take a stab at suggesting some footwear, since no one else is trying to.

I've read of guides using soccer spikes up to camp four on Everest instead of boots to save energy. They size up to accomodate lots of socks. Thinking of your "contact footwear" and your insulation as two seperate things might help. You need to decide how much support you need to allow you use to whatever sort of traction aid to cross the appropriate terrain. If you could use say a KTS for traction on a relatively soft shoe, than you might be able to use something like a huge running shoe over two sets of alveolite foam liners.

I'm envisioning going to a store where they sell the liners and finding one pair that fit over the appropriate VB socks and another pair that are 3 or 4or 5 sizes bigger to fit snugly over the other pair. Putting a stiff insole (such as superfeet) in the first pair would help, and actually you could use a sheet of HDPE in between the two pairs to add more support. And probably you couldn't find a running shoe to go over the mess (unless you have really small feet) but you could surely get an over boot that would. One of the lightest NEOS over boots would be best.

My guess is that your insulation might be lightest not built into the over boot. You might throw a dense foam "insole" into the overboot also.

That's my two cents, surely someone with more experience can critique this and make it better.

Mr. Douglas Ray: In My Arrogant Opinion (IMAO), the only kind of opinion I ever have, you are making a noble and valiant effort in a hopeless situation. Anyone who says he will be doing Everest in homemade boots is joshing us. La Sportiva makes the Oly Mons, $825, 5 lb, 6 0z, the Spantik, $650, 5 lb, 1 oz, plus several versions of the Trango. There are other manufacurers, including Scarpa, Millet, and Boreal. It would take a rare genius to make a boot at home that was better, IMAO.

Hello and thank so much to Roger,Robert, John and Douglas for your suggestion. I have to mention I am a designer, I am pretty familiar with composite materials, and I am becoming interested to design a SUL 8000meters boot (as well as other SUL footwear).The main imput came to me after I made some research aiming to support the first (full supported !)speed-record attempt that the world class skyrunner Bruno Brunod made. This first attempt made clear that several issues must be reconsidered. One of the big issue being the weight of the stuff required to go fast up to the top, in particular the weight of the "mobile masses", as the boots are. We are fully aware that currently Lasportiva make some great boots, unfortunately they are too heavy for this purpose.I may not go with the suggestion (Air max)made by Robert, in particular since, in order to improve the blood flow, I'd prefer to stay away from thight lacing and tini laces. I am under the impression that Douglas took some sound concepts, that may become an interesting base.
Meanwhile I found that somebody already sells AEROGEL INSOLES...
Thanks
Filippo

If you're serious, Fillippo, then good luck. Are you aware that Koflach used to use alveolite foam in some of their inner boots. The idea was to use a heavier inner boot lower on the mountain, then switch to the alveolite liner for the summit push. I believe that was because the foam smashed down over time from the climber's weight.

The footwear world has a lot of room for improvement in the area of weight verses support and protection. Please keep us posted on what you come up with. I hadn't thought of Aerogel, but from the little bit that I know of it it might have the potential to be an exccelent footwear insulator. If you could build an inner bootie out of it you could probably reduce the overall system weight a lot. One other crazy idea from my previous hairbrained system idea. One could carry two sets of overshoes, one sized to fit over one liner and the other sized to fit over both. That way you could use one liner lower down on the mountain and only need to use both when really necessary.

> La Sportiva makes the Oly Mons, $825, 5 lb, 6 0z, the Spantik, $650, 5 lb, 1 oz, plus several versions of the Trango. There are other manufacurers, including Scarpa, Millet, and Boreal. It would take a rare genius to make a boot at home that was better

Ah, so we should still all be wearing leather boots, carrying 12 oz canvas packs, and using beeswax-proofed cotton tents? Surely the manufacturers of those products know better than us?

Those companies have a certain mind-set. That's the sort of product they make. OK, fine. But where is it written that they and only they know everything about footwear? Why has a company like Inov-8 even dared to exist?

'The reasonable man seeks to adapt himself to the world.
Only the unreasonable man seeks to adapt the world to himself.
All progress therefore depends on the UNreasonable man.'

My wife says I can be very unreasonable...

Edited by rcaffin on 11/21/2006 02:25:51 MST.

Re: "Ah, so we should still all be wearing leather boots": Here are the ingredients for the Oly Mons: "Breathable Cordura® (upper part)/Kevlar anti-perforation fabric (lower part)/Riri Storm® zipper (UV resistant and waterproof) OUTER BOOT: Cordura® upper lined with dual density PE micro-cellular thermal insulating closed cell foam and a thermo-reflective aluminum facing/Insulated removable footbed/Vibram® XSV Rand INNER BOOT: Water repellent breathable upper with polyamide external layer/Dual density PE thermal insulating micro-perforated ventilated foam/Tri-dimensional structured polyester lining combined with pile CONSTRUCTION: Inner: Slip lasted Outer: Board Lasted LAST: Olympus Mons SOLE: Insulating Vibram® PE with rubber inserts MIDSOLE: HP3 INSOLE: 5mm Carbon Fiber + 2.5mm PE micro-cellular thermal insulating closed cell foam topped with a thermo-reflective aluminum layer reinforced with perforated hydrophobic non-woven facing." Now is your opportunity to show us the boots you acutally make in your basement that are more advanced than these.

Cor Blimey, what a concoction! Glad I don't have wear them - or pay for them.
Fwiiw, I wore KT26s to about 5,200 m in Nepal - Australian things you can see reviewed at http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Footwear/Trail%20Shoes/Dunlop%20KT-26%20Shoes/Owner%20Review%20by%20Roger%20Caffin
If you want something similar you can actually handle, look at the Inov-8 range.

But you miss my point. It's the ultra-heavy design thinking that I am challenging. Everest is not that ultra-cold compared to the rest of the world: surely there are other ways of handling that cold?

We have managed to break free of the old thinking that you can only go walking in big heavy leather boots. Just keep pushing the boundaries a little further.

Hello. I fully agree with Robert : no doubt that the (current) number1 producer is Lasportiva and that they make GREAT TECNICAL BOOTS. Also thanks to Robert for mentioning the Alveolite concept from Koflach : to what I am aware, the the only drawback of these (closed cell PE)booties is that they trap the condensation inside, therefore it become almost impossible to eliminate it while over the top. I learnt from Marc Batard (from France, the 1st man that climbed mount Everest in less than 24 hrs)that in order to keep his feet dry, he used toilet-paper bandage inside, that he had to replace frequently. To Douglas :I agree,there is still enough room for improvement, for several kind of footwear. However keep in mind that the tipical development time in the footwear industry is 12 monts, but technically-advanced concepts takes 18 up to 24-36 months. On the other hand I know these timelines may be compressed quite a lot, as far as the design concept become clear, and with the help of good professional technicians.(To make it clear: I am not looking to make any homemade boot). Thanks also for the idea of the 2-stage modular overboots! To Roger: I fall in love with the concept that the progress depends on UNreasonable man! Is it yours?
Any other experience with insulating materials or concepts ?
Thanks
Filippo

Hi Filippo

> To Roger: I fall in love with the concept that the progress depends on UNreasonable man! Is it yours?
I am lead to believe Mark Twain may have beaten me to it...

>Now is your opportunity to show us the boots you acutally make in your basement that are more advanced than these.


I don't really want to throw gas on the fire, but I would consider any boot that is as warm and lighter to be more 'advanced', regardless of what materials it is made from. My UL pack is just made from silnylon, but I consider it to be more 'advanced' than my 8-pound pack made with high-strength aluminum, various weights of DWR Cordura nylon, burly zippers, etc. Material technology should be a means to an end (and the desired end here is lighter boots).


>It's the ultra-heavy design thinking that I am challenging. Everest is not that ultra-cold compared to the rest of the world: surely there are other ways of handling that cold?


That's what makes this thread so interesting. I'll never summit Everest (or likely even see it), but I'd sure be happy to never have cold feet again. UL boots that can handle 8000m cold would suit me just fine for 4000m cold. (Crampon compatible would be good.) I just can't bring myself to buy a 7-pound pair of plastic double boots for cold hiking, now that I've switched to AR shoes for dirt hiking. Heck, for the difference in weight I could afford to carry chemical warmer packs or spare batteries for heated insoles.

Edited by Otter on 11/22/2006 09:56:34 MST.

You can now buy insoles with the NASA-style aerogel insulation from Sahalie, for the princely sum of $12.95 (link) . Their catalogue has a picture of someone standing on a piece of dry-ice in bare feet, insulated only by the insoles, and the stated weight is less than one ounce per pair. These sound like they could be good for mountaineering and ski boots. It will be interesting to see how they perform in the real world.

Edited by chris_jackson on 11/26/2006 16:19:20 MST.

In response to Roger:
It is clear in other colder locations in the world people wear much lighter footwear but what you are ignoring is that in those places there is not a lack of oxygen factoring into the body's ability to warm itself. It has very little to do with understanding ones own physiology and realizing that its tough to stay warm when you can barely breathe. Obviously for some, this effect is worse than for others but it isn't exactly controllable, unless in this speed ascent the party wants to carry a ton of O2 and blast sea level like amounts into their face mask. And further more is the necessity of rigid shanks to facilitate crampons, these are gonna be heavy no matter what, something that isn't really needed in the polar regions where people wear "light footwear in colder temps".

It also needs to be considered that if your boots fail at this altitude, your majorly screwed. For this reason the wise climber would add some margin of safety into his footwear, if you can't walk you will die.

Ok so we could make the shanks out of carbon fiber or whatnot and add crazy high tech insulation, but then there is also the question of who is paying for the boots. Even the trial and error in building a set would be massively expensive. But I suppose if you can pay the Everest permit fees there is no doubt enough money for custom footwear (or the clout to get it for free).

And as far as boot weight goes the Mons by L.S. are pretty light. I realize they are no trail runners but again, there are pretty good reasons for that I think.

Dave

Edited by thuldj on 01/28/2007 23:02:03 MST.

Disclaimer: I've never climbed Everest or any 8000M peak

With that out of the way, this is pretty interesting thread, but there have been some pretty wacky suggestions here, as well. Sure, it's probably possible to climb Everest in a pair of Nikes with fifteen pairs of socks, two inner boots, some overboots and a pair of Kahtoolas for traction, but it seems like a pretty foolhardy idea to me.

First, think of the complexity of such a system. How long would it take you to put on the whole system in your living room? Now, how long would it take to do the same thing when your fingers are frozen, you can't see clearly, and you have the mental capacity of a four year old?

Now, what happens when you're hiking on the local crag and you snap the frame or shear off the points of your aluminum Kahtoolas? You have to choose an alternate route, maybe postpone your trip altogether? And if the same thing happens at 27,000 feet? You die.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for advancement and innovation in outdoor gear, but when I look at a boot like the Olympus Mons, I just don't see much that you can take off of there and still maintain some level of safety and redundancy in an environment like Everest. Also, complaining about the price of such boots seems pretty silly to me. How much is each of your toes worth? How much is coming home alive worth? In each case, my answer is "a heck of a lot more than $700".

Edited by james481 on 01/29/2007 13:49:24 MST.

VB sock system, a pair of Intuition liners, heat mold, then another pair of the largest size intuition liners, heat mold, wrap in reflective mylar, Put the sole of a running shoe, or carbon fiber stiffener in the bottom of a pair of 40 below overboots, add Aluminum strap on crampons. They'd be warm, they'd be light, just dont front point or step on your feet

Edited by EricP on 01/29/2007 21:28:27 MST.

A dim memory just floated up out of my alcohol-ravaged brain: Vern Tejas wearing big, floppy, homemade boots on Denali in the video, "Expedition Denali." It looks like he's about to step on his own clown-sized feet any second. Vern did something solo mid-winter on Denali's West Buttress, camped or climbed or something, but I doubt he could use those monstrosities on anything steeper than the West Buttress.

Not a mountaineer, and little knowledge of insulating materials, but...

It seems that to get to truly UL Everest boots, that you need to abandon the concept of insulation-only and start considering introducing heat. IMHO that means that you are probably talking about a controlled chemical reaction.

Picture it - boots no bulkier than trail runners that can circulate a reactive warming chemical at a rate the user dictates. This would probably get really high tech and expensive.

Any chemists lurking?

I also hate heavy plastic boots.

Here are my thoughts:
-there's no reason for plastic boots when carbon fiber is lighter, stronger and stiffer, replace the outer shell with carbon fiber. I weight my koflach arctis boots and the shell is 2# 2oz and the liner is only 15oz. You can shave at least 1.5# by using a carbon fiber shell
-aerogel insoles to protect from heat conduction to the ground
-maybe line the inner portion of the carbon fiber with an aerogel and use a lighter liner
-battery foot warmers to reduce weight from feet and put it on your back since 1# on your foot is 5# on your back

Here's a company that makes custom carbon fiber cycling shoes: http://www.rocket7.com/shoes.htm

Not cheap at $2000 a pair but definitely light! Integrate this built in crampons and you have a very light shell!

"...no doubt that the (current) number1 producer is Lasportiva and that they make GREAT TECNICAL BOOTS. Also thanks to Robert for mentioning the Alveolite concept from Koflach : to what I am aware, the the only drawback of these (closed cell PE)booties is that they trap the condensation inside, therefore it become almost impossible to eliminate it while over the top..."

Okay, so this thread is just so nuts that I can't stop myself from getting involved anymore.

I don't even know where to start.

The current record holder, a sherpa, used the then current sportiva one peice boot and did the hill in less than 9 hours. On the other hand, the "skyrunner" gave up after 16 hours. The sherpa also managed to come down the hill with no loss of toes or frostbite. The sherpa did not have a sherpa babysitting him up the hill, while brunod was "escorted" by a sherpa.

What is important? Conditioning, physical fitness, adaptation? Or high tech shoes?

I've known scarpa and la sportiva to get out new prototypes in about a month. The time from prototype to market is about 6 months in the current market. A few years ago, I was present at one of the initial conversations about "fruit boots" for technical ice climbing, and the boots were on sale less than 4 months later. If you think it takes 18 to 36 months to get a prototype, you are dealing with the wrong level of the organization.

Alveolite is used in boots made by La Sportiva, Scarpa, and Koflach to name a few. It's just another type of insulation. No big deal.

Batard is the real deal. Get him to introduce you to the Gobbi family.

Good luck. Come back alive, come back friends, come back in one peice.

"dual density PE micro-cellular thermal insulating closed cell foam" = alveolite