"Question is if it's worth $150 to save an extra 8-16 oz."

Shirley, you jest.....

>Shirley, you jest.....

...and don't call me Shirley.

Edited by T.L. on 04/14/2011 12:14:14 MDT.

Right, right... wrong question to ask here. :)

Maybe I should ask if, considering limited funds, there is a better way to save more weight for the same money. But that would require another thread, and a full gear list... still working on a post-married two-person gear list, so nothing to post here yet in that regard. We've got some weight we need to shave off our backs for sure.

Packs are GoLite Jams, so they're not the culprit. Bags are less than 2lbs each for ~30* (Exped Wallcreepers -- great multipurpose bags), pads are Z-lites for most conditions. I'm looking at our cooking system and shelter as our biggest places to save weight and add comfort/flexibility.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help.

Well, before I make a suggestion, could I try to persuade you to drop one of your requirements?

If you lose the "freestanding" requirement, it will open a world of other options to you, as well as save you significant weight. Also, with many of the tarp + inner net systems, you can pitch the tarp(rainfly) before you pitch the inner net. Most freestanding tents require you pitch the net part of the tent first, then try and pitch the rainfly while the inside of your tent is filling with rain...

I spend a lot of time in the sierras so I know about rocky soil, and of course, just plain rock! In these situations, just use a deadman anchor. Tie your guylines to the center of your stake(or a branch)and lay the stake horizontally behind two large rocks so the line feeds between them. With this method, you could pitch a tarp on a solid slab of granite. Check out this picture to see what I'm talking about, only imagine the snow on either side of the line is two rocks...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kqqyOc7wGv8/ShmO1vtAtDI/AAAAAAAACsY/RXNvoU00MOM/s200/Crevasse_8046Resize.jpg

If I've succesfully convinced you to consider non-freestanding tents, then I would like to suggest the SMD Haven + inner net. It meets all your other requirements.
Now if you really want to go light weight, and you don't NEED TWO side entrances, the Zpacks hexamid twin with inner net would come out to only ~1lb!

Otherwise, if you're stuck on freestanding, then I always liked the look of the tarptent rainbow. Although it is not a double wall, you can buy a clip in liner that makes it essentially a double wall. At less than 3lbs. and only $260.

Disclaimer: I don't have any experience with any of these tents, these are just suggestions from the research I've done over the last year, as I am also looking for a lighter 2 person double wall tent.

Edited by stingray4540 on 04/14/2011 12:54:04 MDT.

Nick,
You make great points, and I appreciate your encouragement to go even lighter/simpler. If I were looking for a shelter for myself, or if my wife were in better hiking shape, I'd consider it. The SMD Haven looks awesome.

The TT Hogback is also really tempting as a larger, non-freestanding, lightweight shelter... space for four for twice the weight, but about the same price.

At this point, we're not covering the kind of distances that would make it worth the weight/comfort tradeoff. I'd say 8-10 miles/day is about it right now. And we often try to take along friends who are new to backpacking -- we love introducing people to the backcountry -- and new hikers often means heavier packs (we usually loan out our old gear), and that can mean even less miles.

And with less distance, comes less time spent on the trail, comes more time in the tent or around a fire. If we're adding that much tent time, the extra shelter and options are worth the weight.

If we eventually get to move out west, I'd suspect we'll start logging more miles on the trail, and then we'll spend less time at camp, and a more minimal shelter will make more sense.

As it is, hiking is not bad now with 10-15 pound packs (plus consumables). It's a huge improvement over the 25+ pound packs we were both using two years ago.

There's a sweet spot for everyone in terms of comfort/weight/price/convenience/safety/time, and I think that sweet spot evolves over time for most of us. For most of college/grad school, with zero money to work with, I was using a 6lb, 3man Wentzel tent that was $14 on clearance at Amazon, and a heavy, discontinued Camelback pack bought off of eBay. No sleeping pad, a rectangular 30* Slumberjack bag, and no cooking system -- hot food meant roast it on sticks over a fire. No fire, no hot food. And hiking friends were peers with boundless energy and no need for comforts, no worries about injury, no planning for emergency. Just grab whatever we had and hit the road.

Now, with a regular income, a wife, and less discretionary time, that sweet spot has shifted considerably. Now, it's about hiking together, and keeping us both happy. Someday, with kids, I imagine it will split into marathon ultralight solo trips balanced against shorter, comfort-driven trips with family.

So again, I appreciate the suggestions... if I find a great deal on a non-freestanding 2-person tent like an SMD Haven, I'll likely pick it up to see if it could meet our needs. No way to know for sure without trying it. But I'd be wary of making it our primary tent, or of paying full price for it... part of a shared budget and having camping as a shared hobby is keeping expenses "reasonable."

"If I found a great deal on any of these tree tents, I'd take it.'

There is an eBay seller with the Fly Creek UL3 posted for $450 Buy It Now or Best Offer. I got mine by offering $350.

The Fly Creek UL4 is going to be massive for two people. The UL3 is a nice spacious tent with loads of head room. The UL4 would just be space overkill IMO and you'd need a big spot to park that thing.

"is if it's worth $150 to save an extra 8-16 oz."
Yes. 8-16oz is a lot of weight and $9-$18/oz saved is pretty good. If you opt for the heavier tent because it's cheaper, you might end up spending even more money in the long run if you switch tents again.

In general, I figure out what the best piece of gear is for my needs and get it, even if it means spending a bit more or waiting a bit longer than intended. If I can't afford it, I wait a bit longer or sell off something else. Everytime I buy something less good because it's cheaper, it's usually not long before I end up regretting that and wishing I'd saved up a little more cash.

Just wanted to throw the hubba hubba hp out there.
I have one and love it, packed weight - 1724 grams

>Your numbers add up to 4.94 lbs. Even if you're right and
>the manufacturer is overstating the weight, then it's still hardly
>lighter than the 5.5 lbs tent the original poster is trying to replace.

I think your math is slightly off. Anyway most of the tents being discussed are "hardly lighter" than the tent the poster is trying to replace. Especially considering Big Agnes's "optimistic" specs for their products. Personally I'd rather have a Big Agnes or a TarpTent, but the Alps Mountaineering tent can be bought new for less than $100, so if cost-per-ounce-weight-reduction is the criteria, it does quite well.

Yeah, The Alps tents are the Chevy's of yesteryear in terms of these comparisons. I 'll admit that the usual question is SNAFU I want my Cake but can't afford it . The Alp's are designed by former Kelty people. Their only real following is the BSA. The materials are solid both the poles and the bodies and fly. Space is fine as is headroom. The economics are considerable. Last year I paid about $70 for an Alps Zenith 2 at STP . Ditch the stuff sacks, the heavy guy lines and adjusters and the stock stakes and you have a pretty good tent if you split the load. Of course at BPL these unloved unkillable tents get faint praise . Jeff Sullivan said not so long ago that nobody returns them. Most of the used ones on gear-swap sell for their initial price.It really is too bad that BPL doesn't host stickies about gear as they used too. It would slow down the leap off of Mount Newbie into the sea of Iownia. Myself Included.

"The Alps Mountaineering tent can be bought new for less than $100, so if cost-per-ounce-weight-reduction is the criteria, it does quite well."

The original posters current tent weighs 84.8 oz versus 83 oz for the Zephyr 3 (Both weights are manufacturers specs for poles+fly+inner tent). So you are suggesting paying $100 to save 1.8oz, which is an extremely poor $55 per ounce saved.

"...Especially considering Big Agnes's "optimistic" specs for their products."

Huh? Big Agnes isn't known for being optimistic about their weight specs. Sure they might be a smidge high like virtually every brand, but nothing more than a couple percent off. I own a Big Agnes Fly Creek UL3 and it's 3.24 lbs for the poles, tent & fly where as Big Agnes claims 3.18 lbs.

Edited by dandydan on 04/14/2011 22:51:30 MDT.

I researched all the looking last year and came up with the Big Agnes Copper Spur 3. I have been to 6 REI garage sales have purchased a myriad of tents. I clean them properly and sell them on craigslist and eBay. I have tried all of them out. I love playing with the variety of gear. When I purchased my Copper Spur I eliminated many other tents without trying them based on weight. I can say there are many I would have considered after playing with them. Everything is a trade the light tents are fragile you can add a little weight and have a much more robust long lasting tent. If I had it to do all over again I would most likely end up with the Copper Spur again. The Fly Creek UL2 was my second that would have turned out to be a mistake now that I have been in it. I will give you a little evaluation.

MSR the Hubba series is awesome I discounted them based on weight. Featherlight Dac poles same clips as BA (clear vs Black). The Hubba's extra weight is in the fly and floor. That is not a bad thing stronger tents in my oppinion. Carbon Reflex also nice tents I was concerned with Easton carbon fiber poles. I am not anymore MSR stands behind their products and the poles react very well. I have no experience with the HP line of Hubba's and am looking forward to that. The skinny one and two I was prepared to hate. Single wall design, one entry, non-freestanding and weight were all strikes against this tent. I love the Skinny tents. If you are tall or claustrophobic consider the Skinny's great ventilation and a view out the back of the tent that is like a big screen T.V. with the nature channel on it. Almost anything MSR makes is well thought out sturdy gear. I sold a one and two and I am going to have to buy the Two I liked it so much. If you are above six feet this is a great tent. MSR Warranty is stellar.


Mountain Hardware I had a couple of light-path tents I played with. I have lots of Moutain Hardware cloths/Jackets. I have not been blown away with their tents. Quirky and a little odd. They tapper they don't make the best use of the floor space. Since I have nothing good to say I will stop there.

Marmot I found surprisingly good except the names. I had a aeros, aura and a aeolos two person and three. These tents don't pack down small enough is the only bad. The good is I like their tent stakes. The MSR and Big Agnes are good but small and sharp when trying to pull out. I like the wall of these tents go straight up great use of space along with the MSR the best zipper feel and design. Zippers are quiet and have one hand operation. I can't say that about many other tents. Great ventilation floors seem tough. Color and design are cool. Easy up and down. Intuitive design no instructions necessary. How Marmot takes care of warranty I have not found out yet.

BIg Agnes Copper Spur line, I love big vestibules and useable space is great. Looks and build quality are top notch. Seedhouse and Flycreek tapper at end I sleep head to foot when anyone else is in the tent. I am not a fan of re-breathing camping breath. Seedhouse/Flycreek a bit to fragile. Very light floors and flys and not completely freestanding. Weight to size ration awesome but not for me. Big Agnes is great to deal with. I don't have to go on and on about Big Agnes. If you buy a BA product you are getting your moneys worth. I am going to get a Copper Spur UL4 so if my wife decides to come out and play she can.

Sierra Designs are hit and miss. Pack down better than Marmot not as well as others. I have not had enough length in some of their tents. I was pleasantly surprised by them. I gave them no consideration before, that has changed after pitching and playing in them. Value leader in many respects. I would own a Sierra Designs tent. There I said it.

I purchased a Gossamer Gear Spin Twin tarp I like it very much. I am a sissy and bugs scare me. I will however be under this tarp many nights this summer. I am a little claustrophobic and when I am under this tarp I feel perfect. I am hoping to try all of the tents by the cottage manufacturers. That is were I hope to spend my fun tickets in the future.

I can only give you my perspective as an overweight balding know it all. Most of this is theoretical as I have only spent the night in a couple.

Dan, this is the third time that you've distorted things.

The Zephyr 3 that I measured was considerably lighter than spec. True my sample size is one. But your sample size is zero, yes? And how do you know the original poster's current tent really weighs 84.8 oz? Have you measured it?

By the way, I'm not the one that suggested the Zephyr 3. I like Big Agnes products. But I have three Big Agnes products, and they are all about 4 - 8% over spec. Their specs are probably more accurate on their UL line than on their non-UL line. Some manufacturers claims are more distorted than Big Agnes'. I've seen as high as 25% over spec on a 5 pound product. Some manufacturers claims are right on. The GoLite products which I have weighed have been right on the money.

I appreciate the help -- especially John's broad look at a lot of different manufacturers. I think it's a helpful look that definitely adds perspective. I wish there were some mega-tent warehouse with everything set up inside, since I think that would make the whole experience a lot easier.

Sometimes there are completely subjective things about tent design which affect enjoyability that can't be accounted for with just weight. I love, love, love, love the color of light that filters into my Trango 2. Something about how those blue, orange and white fabrics layer together filter morning sun into intoxicating, ambrosial light.

I know it's heresy to say here, but I'd almost carry all 9+ pounds of that Trango up a mountain just for the color of light in the morning. Even cloudy days feel happier in that tent. I understand why it's a great tent for mountaineering.

There are many tents I've been in that just don't feel "happy" the same way because of the tarp/tent colors. That intangible is a real performance issue for me. I may be on the short list, but I think it's a valid consideration.

(((Just as a curiosity, are there any BPL articles on tent colors and how they affect mood/enjoyment when hiking?)))

I appreciate the recommendations and insight into the ALPS Zephyr/Zenith series. They may only be a few ounces lighter than what I'm using now, but they would achieve more functionality -- two doors and a freestanding design would be worth the move, since I think my current tent is probably worth $100 and I could trade for no cost penalty. However, I'm hoping to upgrade... However, I will keep the Zephyr in mind to recommend to new hikers -- it definitely looks like the best VALUE (price/performance/features/weight) that I've seen in any tent. The only ALPS products I've got are a couple of 0* primaloft synthetic bags (4lbs/each) that I've kept around as loaners for new hikers. And though their temp rating is a little optimistic (more like 10* bags), they're well made and seem high quality.

I've always liked MSR/Marmot tents, but nothing in the Marmot lineup is a better price/weight/space option than some of the other choices. The MSR Carbon Reflex look great, but are even more expensive -- $600 retail for the 3p. So they don't win the value equation either.

So I think I'm going to be looking for a BA tent. And I'm going to put the ALPS tents at the top of my list as gear to recommend to new hikers who are on a budget.

"I know it's heresy to say here, but I'd almost carry all 9+ pounds of that Trango up a mountain just for the color of light in the morning."

Just get a white cuben tent and install plasticine porters. I believe they're only available on Abbey Road.....

I feel like my friend Lucy recommended the same thing...