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Scott Crutchfield
(MirrOlure) - F
Water Purification - Really? on 04/11/2011 10:24:49 MDT Print View

I certainly understand the need to purify water from streams, creeks, etc.

But also from the wells?

My only Philmont experience is frmo 30 years ago, when I was 14, and I certainly could be wrong, but I am virtually certain we drank water straight from the wells, without any purification, etc.

Is the requirement of purifying all water, including from wells, a reality, or is it BSA "abundance of caution?"

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: Water Purification - Really? on 04/11/2011 11:11:32 MDT Print View

I don't know anything about the Philmont situation, but when the Clean Water Act was renewed ('87 I think) its reach expanded to small and seasonal water systems. It may be the Boy Scouts began testing their wells and found they didn't pass, or they may have decided to not test and make treatment mandatory. There should be records for the wells filed...somewhere. The relevant county(ies) perhaps?

As to whether wells can be contaminated, they sure can. It depends on several factors including the source water, the well constuction and wellhead design. Routine tests with negative results mean the water won't require treatment.

Cheers,

Rick

Edited by halfturbo on 04/11/2011 11:12:30 MDT.

Ray Spagnuolo
(Ray_S) - F
Water purIfication on 04/11/2011 17:08:00 MDT Print View

We were there in 2009, going back this summer. There were several staffed camps that had potable water and were identified as such. Camps that I recall were Baldy Town, Hunting Lodge, Miranda and Ponil. Unless identified as potable we were told to treat it.

We took msr filters which worked well except for at Baldy Skyline where the water looked like diluted skim milk and clogged the filters after 1 liter, the katadin filter another crew had seemed ok.

Overall water quality was very good except at Ponil where it had a subtle petroleum taste to it and at Baldy Skyline.

George Geist
(geist) - M

Locale: Smoky Mountains
Re: Water Purification - Really? on 04/12/2011 17:11:34 MDT Print View

Hi Scott,

Remember Philmont is an active cattle ranch.

Yes, at Philmont unless the water is explicitly declared potable
(true in many of the staffed camps) You should filter or use tablets
even from a well. During our trek in 2009 we had two occasions
where we got water from unlabeled spigots. I had carried a
10L water bag and we filled and pumped from the bag.
We found bugs in one, and the other had an awful smell.

Yes. Purify the water. Philmont supplies all the micropur
tablets you need. Give them your empty wrapper and they
exchange it for a new full sheet.

Matthew Zion
(mzion) - F

Locale: Boulder, CO
Re: Water Purification on 04/12/2011 23:28:31 MDT Print View

If I remember correctly, we were told to not even drink from the water sources that ran through cattle pastures. Our trek was in the northern part and with the experience I've had since I don't think you would technically need to treat even the stream sources. However, yes, some wells when tested will have traces of coliform bacteria, etc. And I think simply from a liability stand point, you might as well treat anything that isn't labeled potable.

By the way, watch out for the staff camp that serves root beer. Their water is methane filtered--might as well take a spoonful of a cow patty and chase it with water. Great time, enjoy your trek!

ed dzierzak
(dzierzak) - F

Locale: SE
Water purification on 08/17/2011 09:38:41 MDT Print View

Short answer -

Purify ALL water unless told by staff that the camp water is potable.

Karen Lewis
(karenlewis65) - F
portable water purifiers on 09/02/2011 04:11:05 MDT Print View

I am planning to buy those portable water purifiers. How good are those, just curious?

Ryan Elsey
(paintballswimguy) - F

Locale: Kansas City
Portable water purifiers on 09/04/2011 09:57:30 MDT Print View

They work well, they are just on the heavy side. I've used the MSR Sweetwater Purifier, and I've also used the Katadyn micro filter. I've also used the MSR Hyperlight

My favorite was the MSR sweet water purifier. You could practically filter mud, and it came out tasting fine and looking clear. I'm not a fan of the other 2 purifiers i listed, the katadyn doesn't filter as well, and broke on me, while using it in the boundary waters...So i boiled all my water. The hyper light, basically uses paper filters, that seem to clog quite often, while easy to use, it can also be a pain. The problem is, the sweet water is very heavy, and is also slow to pump.

For Philmont, You would be fine using polar pure, or aquaria to whole time. You may also look at using a steripen. I recently used one for a month on the AT, and liked the simplicity quite a bit.

One thing to keep in mind, is that if you use a pump, you will need more then one pump for the group. because, otherwise, water stops will take forever. If you use aquamira , you just put some drops in everyones bottles and then you are on your way.

Walter Underwood
(wunder) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Pumps, bleah on 09/21/2011 23:57:54 MDT Print View

Pumps are heavy, a hassle, and slow. I have better things to do with my time in the backcountry than pump water.

Philmont will supply you with Katahdin Micropur tablets. Those are the best available chemical purification. Use them. You do not need to bring anything else.

Donald Howard
(DonH) - F
Water treatment on 04/09/2012 13:47:34 MDT Print View

I own two SteriPens. Would they be worth taking? Sure is nice to have almost instant pure water from a cold stream to drink on a hot day.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
pen on 04/09/2012 18:30:39 MDT Print View

Take what you like, you have to carry it.

You will have tabs also for backup, so you will have both. Begs the question of why carry the pen. The answer is of course convenience.

You will need to use to treat everyones water so they can drink as quick as you though.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Re: Re: Water Purification on 04/09/2012 18:52:39 MDT Print View

"If I remember correctly, we were told to not even drink from the water sources that ran through cattle pastures. Our trek was in the northern part and with the experience I've had since I don't think you would technically need to treat even the stream sources."

Matthew,
When you hike the PCT I would suggest treating all water even remotely close to cattle and grazing. Read this: http://www.modbee.com/2010/05/08/1158938/fouled-waters-sierra-lakes-streams.html

Walter Underwood
(wunder) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Steri-Pens on 04/23/2012 19:34:34 MDT Print View

I wouldn't bother. Something else to carry.

Is the whole crew going to wait while you treat your drink of water? They get to decide, advisors are along for the ride. I tried to be a little drag on the crew as possible.

Water purification is crew gear and a crew decision. Ask your crew leader.

I don't remember a lot of cold, clear mountain streams. Agua Fria was a trout stream, plenty of insects and plants. We crossed Cimmaroncito Creek about thirty times, so it was pretty stirred up.

Scott Bentz
(scottbentz) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Water Treatment on 05/11/2012 12:05:32 MDT Print View

I think it is real hard for some to get over the need for a pump.

I have been using Chlorine Dioxide, the same type you are given at Philmont, for years. In the Sierras we pass groups all the time that all have their pack off and are standing around pumping stream water. We just walk up, bend over, fill our bottles, and keep on hiking. I bet they think we are all crazy and are going to get sick and they are not.

I sometimes use a Steripen when I am by myself or with another person. I like the fact I don't have to wait 20 minutes. I would not use one in a group as it slows things down. Remember, part of hiking light is "fast and light".

If you can't get over not filtering water just go through BPL and read all the relevant information. I have articles that I print out and give to Scout leaders that are planning trips so they can make informed decisions.

alan saggers
(767dad) - F
Water Purification/Filtration on 09/12/2012 07:37:07 MDT Print View

My son and I are gong to philmont next summer. In the meantime we are starting to try (borrowing some and purchase some) gear testing ahead to decide what sort of compromise between risk (bad water), weight, fragility and processing capacity. Technically the chemical and UV treatment are good as long as there is not a lot of sediment (sediment at low ppm levels is not always that visible), the chemical and UV cannot necessarily penetrate particles and destroy microorganisms inside the sediment particles (sorry too many years working in the waste water treatment business), hence the desire to use a filter as well.

I have seen in some forums/online store good reviews of the General Ecology First Need system relative to the comparable MSR/Katedyn products. My son has had mixed experience with Katedyn pump in northern MIon relatively clean water sources Comments No experience with the MSR systems

I have also seen good reviews of the Platypus system for larger volumes.

Some technical knowledge on water treatment and a lot of information out there is making the evaluation process more complicated than we would like. I value replies in these forums and would appreciate input.

Dan Lee
(scoutbuff) - M

Locale: Colorado
WATER PURIFICATION, 2012 FEEDBACK... on 09/12/2012 12:23:53 MDT Print View

Alan-
Our crew used a combination of the micropur tablets and a Platypus Gravity Works filter. I have a Katadyn Hiker Pro in my personal gear (that I didn't take) but after using the GW filter on our warm-ups, ALL the boys loved it. I don't think I'll use my pump ever again... Too much weight and effort for the return...

I'm sure you'll find many other opinions but here's one of our Philmont experiences. We are passing through a site with an "ample" flowing spring to water up. (Be careful when interpreting the water board as "ample" means different things to people...) Anyway, another crew is pumping water as we arrive, taking turns every couple of minutes for a new set of arms. A couple of our boys walk up, scoop 4L of "dirty" water from a small pool that had formed and sit down for a couple minutes of chit chat. Repeat the process and pretty soon we have watered everyone up while the other crew is still pumping. I think they were still pumping when we finished our lunch.

You will always be able to get more micropur from commissaries and staffed camps on the trail. We didn't run into any really foul water so could probably have left the GW at home and just used tablets. Personally, I could taste the difference and preferred the filtered over tabs. This also gave us a couple of large reservoirs for dry camps...

FYI, on the issue of treating well water... Some camps have solar-powered chlorination systems and will test the water periodically. The camps will generally put a sign up if the water needs purification. When we hit Abreau we timed it just between testing and the sign posting. After everyone had chugged some and topped off, we were told that the water needed purification. Uugghhh! Fortunately, no one developed what the boys coined the "Abreau Super Squirts."

I'm overly cautious, especially when I have other parent's kids, so recommend some kind of water treatment unless your absolutely sure of the source. Hope this helps some!

alan saggers
(767dad) - F
Water Treatment on 09/12/2012 14:02:46 MDT Print View

Rick,

Thanks for your reply. I will get another dad to purchase the gravity filter and we can do some head to head tests on our practices hikes.

My other concern with the gravity system was fragility. How did you pack it to ensure it was not damaged (perforation of the bag would my biggest concern)

Dan Lee
(scoutbuff) - M

Locale: Colorado
GRAVITY WORKS FILTER FIELD TEST... on 09/13/2012 07:07:35 MDT Print View

I, too, was a bit concerned about durability. Every member of the crew used it at some point in the trek and during our warm-ups so were familiar with how to assemble. This is extremely easy to do... To protect it, we simply rolled it up and kept it in the carry bag that it comes with. (Our crew method was that the same scout carried the same crew gear throughout the trek.) We did caution the boys to watch for sharp rocks or branches but had zero problems.

One small lesson learned that you'll probably read about in reviews is that you may need to "back flush" the filter to restore flow. No biggie...

Two thumbs up for the GW!
-Dan

Dan Lee
(scoutbuff) - M

Locale: Colorado
GRAVITY WORKS, PT. 2... on 09/13/2012 07:10:37 MDT Print View

BTW, you may want to purchase through REI when they have their semi-annual 20% off sale. If you find it doesn't measure up, fails in some way or the boys don't like using it, you'll be covered...

Gordon Forrest
(gf2020)
Micropur on 09/17/2012 18:28:53 MDT Print View

I think a filter is completely unnecessary at Philmont. Our trek this past season was during one of the driest periods of a very dry summer. We had 4 dry camps instead of the 2 planned but we always found water that was either already potable from a staff camp or that was treated just fine using the Micropur tablets. I can't envision a scenario where you would want to filter water for your crew versus adopting the convenience of using the Micropur tablets.

Walter Underwood
(wunder) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Water Purification/Filtration on 09/20/2012 17:57:35 MDT Print View

There is a nice article on the effectiveness of chlorine dioxide treatments against biofilms by Dr. Ryan Jordan. Yeah, that Ryan Jordan. He tests Aqua Mira, which is the same chemical as the Micropur tablets.

http://www.aquamira.com/bpl_2_efficacy-of-water.pdf

For water with more sediment or other gunk, double or quadruple the dosage. This is also a good way to get a sterile wash for first aid.

Mimi Hatch
(theturtlebear) - M

Locale: Baltimore
Water purification on 09/21/2012 09:49:30 MDT Print View

I've taken four crews since they started using the MicroPur at Philmont in 2005 and have always been happy with the ease of use. My 2012 crew fell in love with the Platypus gravity filter and decided to take it along (and their vote outguns mine, LOL), using it whenever possible, but there were still instances where the MicroPur was very handy (and we all carried a sleeve on us). We had twice as many dry camps as the trek was rated for, due to low water in intermittent steams and lakes at some of our trail camps (mid-July). We did a lot more water management than my crews have had to do on any prior treks in the past 17 years, due to a combination of the trek selected and the water availability. That said, we came prepared to be able to carry 5-6 liters each on our days on Phillips or Tooth Ridge, and we never ran dry.

David Ebert
(ebertdb) - M

Locale: Midwest
Philmont and Water Treatment on 10/03/2012 10:00:38 MDT Print View

Like many others have posted, leave the filter behind. Pack lightly. Don't take a Steri-pen. AquaMira tablets are handed out at every commissary and they are generous and light weight.

Every staffed camp has water. You will either pass through or stay in one just about every day on about every trek. As others have posted, ranger staff will post if water needs to be treated. A happy backcountry staff is a staff that has fresh water and doesn't have to treat their water every day!

Water availability is posted in Base Camp at Logistics. You will go to Logistics your first day in base camp. Go again in the morning you depart with your Crew Leader and note what is posted where and PLAN where you will get water if water is not available as posted. "Ample" does not mean free-flowing or clear!

We went this year (2012) arriving in base camp June 10, which is only 2 days from the opening of the ranch. The water boards were not all updated, since backcountry staff and rangers had not been everywhere or reported in yet. So we had two sites with little or no water. Had we absolutely needed to, we would have used a bandana to filter the scum out of the cattle pond and treated with AquaMira, but we managed through it.

Our crew had a few members with only 3L water capacity, and they wished they had more - not to keep full and carry all the time, but to fill in preparation for long and/or dry days. I recommend 5L capacity for everyone, and then plan when in your trek you actually need to carry the extra weight. This will change based on water availability throughout the season. Take extra collapsible water bags or canteens and use them on your dry days to supplement individual water storage. We carried two 3L canteens.

In camp, your water usage will depend greatly on how you plan to cook and clean. If you cook and clean the Philmont way (family style in a big pot that you then have to wash), you will need lots more water than if you cook in a turkey bag in the big pot (requires no cleaning if the bag stays intact) or rehydrate in the meal pouches. My 12-man crew brought 2 2L pots and other than for coffee or cocoa only heated 4L of water for meals we cooked in the bags. We ate out of food bags and ziploc bags. We also did no dishes as we had a human sump with us (ha!).

ed dzierzak
(dzierzak) - F

Locale: SE
Water and turkey bags on 10/05/2012 06:41:02 MDT Print View

We had an early July trek and at the advisors meeting turkey bags were almost prohibited. Nothing much was said on individual hydration (mugs and bowls). The rangers will still teach the one-pot method as that's "policy".

We made sure that everyone had at least 3 liter capacity and among the crew had 6 additional 4 quart water bags. This got us through our Tooth side-hike with a little to spare.

Our crew leader also took pictures of the water board while in Logistics. This has helped a bit on the trail in the past.Water board

Edited by dzierzak on 10/08/2012 06:39:07 MDT.

Liz Fallin
(fallin) - M
More on Gravity Works on 10/10/2012 14:38:57 MDT Print View

I love the GW, although I have the previous model. There are three caveats, though, some of which have probably been covered here.
First, *only* use clear-ish water. You can prefilter through a bandanna if you need to, which will at least remove the chunky stuff.
Second, *always* backflush. This is beyond simple...just lift the clean bag above the dirty, let it flow for a few seconds, and then clamp off.
And third, the ziploc-type seal on the dirty bag has always been a royal pain to close. We were hoping to use it as a (dirty) water carrier on dry camp days, but had to abandon that plan. I've heard other people complain about this, but I don't know if it's been corrected on the latest version (anybody?).

Liz in Seattle
2011, 2013

Bruce Tolley
(btolley) - F

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Gravity Works on 10/10/2012 21:57:44 MDT Print View

Unless folks really object to the taste of chlorine dioxide at Philmont, the pills work fine and do not fail.

That being said, I love my Gravity Works but it does weigh more than chlorine dioxide pills, and it can fail. I had to replace a filter after taking water three times from a very small, warm pond at 9500 feet in the Sierra Nevada earlier this summer. I suspect that what Ryan Jordan would call biofilms clogged the little hollow tubes. No amount of back flushing would clear the filter. So I replaced the filter.

As to the zip lock on the dirty bag, seems to work fine on my 2012 model.

Edited by btolley on 10/12/2012 09:23:03 MDT.

David Ebert
(ebertdb) - M

Locale: Midwest
Chlorine Dioxide has a taste? on 10/16/2012 10:45:32 MDT Print View

I only used one Gatorade pack a day at Philmont (if that), and drank treated water the rest of the trek and never noticed a taste or aftertaste from the chlorine dioxide tabs. But I rarely had to drink immediately after waiting for the treatment to finish.