...maybe Todd couldn't afford to buy the gear he needed without buying/selling to make a little cash. So, you are basically saying that other backpackers needs override Todd's in this case. If I sold something to Todd, and he turned around and sold it to make a few bucks...then, IMO, I've helped both Todd and the person he sold it to (as they wouldn't have bought it from Todd unless they thought they were getting a good deal). Two for one satisfaction!

Doug:

If you read my posts you will note that the issue isn't about someone selling gear here for profit from time to time -- but someone who ONLY comes here to sell gear. Todd -- or anybody else -- can sell gear here, but I would encourage them to contribute a few posts and not just treat this place like Craiglist 2. That's all.

As a new member to these forums, I thought I would add some outside prospective. I think this whole situation should have been handled in private through PM's between you, him, and the mods. Bringing this to the open forum could not have ended positively. I also post mostly in the gear swap forum because first off I am looking for new gear to get "lighter", and also because I am more of a reader than a person who posts a lot. Does this make me a lesser contributor to this community? Apparently so.

I also want to point out, I have always enjoyed reading your input here and other forums (backpacker.com etc.), where I have been a member for years, but only have 20-30 posts. I believe I have learned a great deal from reading thousands of threads. I also believe I belong to the community just as much as someone who posts or comments on EVERY thread going.

I don't think an apology was needed in the least here, and I think threads like these really deter new members from contributing more often!

just my .02 cents

I did read your post...I just don't agree with it. I posted earlier in the thread that there are many people who come here to GET information, not necessarily to GIVE information. Somebody new to UL backpacking may be coming to this forum every single day to 1. Get information on how to lighten their load, and 2. To pick up gear that accomplishes this purpose. This person may over time become a contributing member of the forum as they gain expertise. But to say that they need to behave a certain way because YOU believe it to be true...well, I have a hard time with that. Don't judge until you've walked (hiked?) a mile in someone else's shoes. Don't presume that everyone's circumstances are the same as yours.

I have seen items that I have sold to a person be sold again at a higher cost. Does it bother me..nope not at all. It just lets me know that maybe I should have sold it for more...who knows.

If a person wants to post only in the gear swap so what! There is nothing that says you have to post in the other threads. If you don't want to buy from him then don't but don't make a big deal out of it.

You don't have to agree with me, Doug -- but everything that you wrote above has NOTHING to do with what I posted. Stop expanding and twisting what I wrote just so you can disagree. Someone just getting info and picking up gear is patently NOT what I was writing about.

If you feel like debating, then drop your vague wording about "making people behave a certain way" -- and simply talk about why you believe people who ONLY post here to sell gear for profit is a good thing for the BPL community.

I don't have a problem with folks not posting when they're still trying to learn.
I don't have a problem with folks buying gear here to lighten their load.
I don't have a problem with folks selling gear here at a cheap price.
I don't have a problem with folks selling gear here at a premium.

I do have a problem with folks who quickly snatch up gear here at a cheap price and immediately flip it and sell it here at a premium price, just to make a quick buck.

If you want to be an entrepreneur, be a real entrepreneur and create something that other folks want to buy. Don't be a leech.

I really don't care if someone sells for a profit here. Apparently the ownership of BPL doesn't either. It is their decision, not ours... other than we can choose who we want to purchase from.

Also doesn't bother me if a frequent seller doesn't post anything else. It is none of my business. I am more comfortable purchasing from a "regular" poster, but that is up to me to decide.

I like it that the forums pretty much run by themselves, people work out their own differences. Very little interference from the Moderators.

On this subject, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I thought it was a nice touch for the OP to apologize, but don't think it should have been necessary. But that is my opinion; some agree, some disagree.

My point is...don't presume to know that people are ONLY posting here to sell gear at a profit. You don't know what other parts of the site they frequent regularly just because they don't post in those sections. You don't KNOW if they're trying to make a few bucks so they can buy a new pad, or pack, or tarp, or whatever to fuel their love of backpacking. By stating (several times) that people need to post on other sections of the site rather than just gear swap you ARE trying to make people behave in a certain way. There's really no getting around it.

Craig & Ben

Both of your posts are examples of exactly what I discussed earlier. Quite frankly it isn't your place to say what Todd or anyone else should or shouldn't be able to do or not do here. That is rightfully a job for the forum moderators and staff members. You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean you have the authority to appoint yourselves as THE transaction moderators.

I am not sure I fully understand or accept the idea that the "community is being taken advantage of" That is an arbitrary and ill-conceived measure. In fact it is no measure at all, it is a statement that is brought to bear whenever anyone feels their "morality" has been offended. Yet I must ask how offended can you get over camping gear? Its not like anyone's life is at stake here, Its just camping gear.

I know you all might not like the idea of gear being resold here, but it happens and I don't think it fits the definition of "damaging the community." No one is telling people to buy the gear that gets reposted and if the new buyer agrees to the price then it isn't anyone place to cry foul over a transaction that you had nothing to do with. Better to leave well enough alone, this is a place of freedom right?

Again why should anyone care that someone just buys and sales gear here? Why should you get that involved in the minutia of other peoples lives and livelihoods whilst you chase after social justice in your spare time? I know plenty of people who sold gear here to help them through tough times and maybe not all members feel that they have anything to say that hasn't already been said. What else is there to say about a piece of gear or style of hike?

I think it is very unfortunate that you look down on some members based upon such little interaction. Frankly you're too emotionally attached to the whole process, and you don't realize or even accept it. It's just not your place, if you want to lobby for a rule change with the mods that's your prerogative, but until then please remember its just camping gear.

I get the point you repeatedly make, and I got it long ago. You don't have to like these sorts of transactions and thats fine, but that doesn't make these transactions wrong or damaging: not until the staff or mods establish such a rule. Like I said if the buyer doesn't think it a fair price then he doesn't have to buy.

There is no need to get your blood pressure up over something that is frankly not really any of your business, as all these transaction are not "community" transactions but are agreements between two individuals. So lighten up a bit, there is no need to rabble over this inconsequential stuff, happy camping or no.

I hope I'm not sounding overly harsh, but I feel this needs to be said

NM

Edited by ctracyverizon on 02/04/2012 06:19:26 MST.

Just start a wiki page of people who are buying and reselling for profit, as their exclusive use of BPL.

People that want to see their gear go to someone that uses it can consult that list and refuse to do business with them.

People that just want their stuff gone can sell as they please.

Simple.

Doug:

Actually, I couldn't care less if people want to make a few bucks to fuel their love for backpacking. But I still believe it is quite disrespectful and actually parasitic to ONLY sell gear here and nothing else. There are loads of other sites designed to be electronic bazaars. BPL is not one of them.

If your bone is nobody should tell anybody how to behave -- then I disagree with you on that one too. Our world is not either all black or all white. Just as I believe it is wrong (and presumptuous) to tell people exactly how they should behave -- it is also wrong to say never do that. Our world is not as simple as you think. For example, if I were to curse people intentionally around here, they would be right to tell me to behave differently. This is why you would be a lot more convincing if you state why you think people who ONLY post to sell gear are positive and valuable to our community -- than just whining about "don't tell people how to behave". This is issue-specific.

Again, my point is I don't know that you can ever truly know that someone is ONLY posting gear for sale here. And to be honest, I think a person who does that CAN be valuable to the community because people are getting good gear at good prices. I don't see anything wrong with that. If the prices aren't good, it won't sell. Hardly parasitic.

Anyway, I don't want to argue with you. I don't know you but I'm sure you're a very nice fellow. We just have some differences of opinion. That's not a bad thing. Have a great weekend!

Edited by strawman on 04/08/2011 12:49:17 MDT.

if I were to curse people intentionally around here

That's exactly what you are doing.
This whole mess is centered around one member and his actions and you are stating that this one case is equal to all cases. Now that I understand what happened that still doesn't change my mind on things. D*** moves are D*** moves and the rest of the community as a whole really can't do anything to right the individual wrong. It was after all an individual wrong between two people.

If you feel so strongly about it take this issue to the staff, as those are the only ones able to bring change about.

Like I said, this whole mess is no water off my back, but if you feel so attached to the issue, don't just sit around and complain about it, go do something about it. Ostracism really doesn't work in a loosely affiliated bunch. Take it to the mods, nuff said.

So I came late, what can I do, it was a public thread, but I guess that's another issue.

Edited by csforstall on 04/08/2011 12:41:36 MDT.

Doug:

Same to you. Noticed how we kept disagreeing with each other -- but never once said the other was "wrong". As it should be. Have a good weekend too!!

.. that no BPL staff has chimed in on the issue thus far. Perhaps it's quite clear that they care less than those who care at all on this particular issue.

I don't see why it should be continued further, lest it turn into a dozen page pi$$ing match.

I don't ever presume to be right anymore. My wife has made it clear that that's fighting a losing battle. :)

how this thread would have turned out if he did not apologize but said something different ??? ???

These are two points of view that i have... Might not even make sense but... let's see!

1. Two people get hired for the same position... one finds out that the other got offered twice as much money for the same job... can the guy with less money complain? he agreed to receive a specific amount of money for what he does right?

2. Two people looking for a great deal... one really needs a piece of gear, the other wants that piece of gear to resale it at a higher price to get yet another piece of gear (profiting from it)... the one getting "screwed" here would be the one person who really wanted the gear but was on a low budget and cannot afford the new asking price from the new owner... wrong or right?

In the end, this IS a free market and also this is a place for people to give their opinions...

Is Todd doing the right thing? I don't know... i got something really cheap from him and i was happy with the asking price...

just my 3 cents... :D don't hate me for my post please :D

Can't we all just fight about guns? What is the world coming to????????

and don't even get me started on this whole Cuben conspiracy.