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Protocol B Version 1 Procedure and Test Results
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Javan Dempsey
(jdempsey)

Locale: The-Stateless-Society
Re: 0 CFM air permeability...uh oh on 04/22/2011 08:01:27 MDT Print View

Konrad, that stuff has had the layer peeled.


I ran into the same problem before Steve. The test piece is from some mitt patterns I cut out too small.

Edited by jdempsey on 04/22/2011 08:02:07 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Submission 47 on 04/22/2011 16:26:20 MDT Print View

c

Detailed Fabric Info:
http://www.cubictechnology.com/CTF3%20PRODUCT%20INFO%20PACK%2007192010_4c.pdf

Supplemental information from Richard Nisley:
The air permeability of this WPB UL shelter material tested at 0 CFM.

The normal CTF3 grid of Dyneema fibers are laid out and adhesive is applied. A WPB polyurethane coating is applied to both sides. It appears that after the initial coating is applied, a ridged surface is created by mechanical rollers/brushes. The pressure applied by the roller on one side appears to be less than the other side. Whether this intentional or not isn’t known but I strongly suspect it was an manufacturing equipment adjustment problem. The prior submission has the same deeper PU pattern that one side of this submission has. There are two apparent benefits derived from the ridges: 1) it protects the coating from wear, and 2) it creates dead air space for additional warmth between it and the garment surface below.

For the two HH samples taken, there was only one pinhole in one sample.

Do to the unique construction of this submission, numerous supplemental micrographs were posted on the external site. The link to supplemental high resolution micrographs, for this material, is below. Each time you left click your mouse over an image it will increase in resolution up to a max of approximately 1600 x 1200.

High Resolution & High Magnification CTF3 Submission Images

40x top lit micrographs are provided to show the PU ridge pattern that was created on each side of the material

t

b

Edited by richard295 on 04/23/2011 11:46:49 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Submission 48 on 04/22/2011 18:44:33 MDT Print View

c

Detailed Fabric Info:
http://www.cubictechnology.com/CTF3%20PRODUCT%20INFO%20PACK%2007192010_4c.pdf

Supplemental information from Javan Dempsey:
Purchased from ZPacks Oct/Nov 2010; on a 54" roll

Supplemental information from Richard Nisley:
The micrographs show the Mylar sheets are pinched into convex ridges at random spots on the surface. Contamination in the Mylar shows up as black specs. Some micrographs show the Dyneema fibers not bound at the normal junction points.

Do to the unique construction of this submission, numerous supplemental micrographs were posted on the external site. The link to supplemental high resolution micrographs, for this material, is below. Each time you left click your mouse over an image it will increase in resolution up to a max of approximately 1600 x 1200.

High Resolution & High Magnification CTF3 Submission Images

40x top lit micrograph showing the Mylar convex creases, contamination, and unbonded Dyneema junctions

4

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Submission 49 on 04/22/2011 20:09:16 MDT Print View

c

Detailed Fabric Info:
http://www.cubictechnology.com/CTF3%20PRODUCT%20INFO%20PACK%2007192010_4c.pdf

Supplemental information from Javan Dempsey:
Purchased from Cubic Tech Feb 2011; on a 54" roll

Supplemental information from Richard Nisley:
If you compare the external site's micrographs for this submission versus the prior submission, the quality differences are dramatic. I would be reasonable to expect the service life of this submission to be much longer. None of the supplemental information comments for the prior sample are applicable to this sample.

Previously committed but still pending submissions, that were not received by April 22, will not be tested by me. The batch 2 aging report is all that remains for me to do.

Do to the unique construction of this submission, numerous supplemental micrographs were posted on the external site. The link to supplemental high resolution micrographs, for this material, is below. Each time you left click your mouse over an image it will increase in resolution up to a max of approximately 1600 x 1200.

High Resolution & High Magnification CTF3 Submission Images

200x bottom lit micrograph

2

Edited by richard295 on 04/23/2011 11:39:35 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words on 04/26/2011 23:47:30 MDT Print View

Enough said… this project is now complete!

Summary Aging Chart

Summary Aging Chart Source Data

I also placed the "Protocol B Aging Source Data" pdf in my BPL profile gear list location. Now the source data is also available to those without Windows Live accounts.

Edited by richard295 on 04/27/2011 20:28:12 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words on 04/27/2011 04:31:20 MDT Print View

Hum ... very waterproof when virgin, but don't some of the Cuban Fiber fabrics go downhill fast!
Interesting ...

Cheers

Daryl and Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Nobel Prize on 04/27/2011 09:03:57 MDT Print View

Richard,

And this year's Nobel Prize goes to.....Richard. Thanks for all the good work.

Soooo, if I'm reading this chart correctly, the following statement might follow:

For the best waterproofing that lasts the longest use PU Nylon, Plastizote or Event (3 layer best). Right?

Daryl

Daryl and Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Event Breathability on 04/27/2011 09:15:55 MDT Print View

Here's a video showing the breathability of event:

event

ziff house
(mrultralite) - F
interesting on 04/27/2011 09:58:03 MDT Print View

stuff, good work ! I'll be nice and dry in my downhill shelter!

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Nobel Prize on 04/27/2011 12:20:31 MDT Print View

Daryl,

"Best" starts holy wars between zealots for each "material religion" and so I will avoid using that term. Every person who makes a "rain proof" related gear decision has an implicit hierarchy of musts and wants. The chart is just data; it is not a score of musts and wants.

If your primary objective is the longest "rain proof" life (defined to be an aged HH > 1,500 mm H2O) then, the chart data shows which materials exhibit that characteristic. For the average thunderstorm, you don’t need more than 1,500 mm H2O to be “rain proof”. In other words 1,700 mm won’t keep you drier than 1,500 mm H2O. You mentioned some, but not all of those materials in the chart that meet your criteria.

Daryl and Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Richard Comment on 04/27/2011 12:48:16 MDT Print View

Richard,

Thanks for the clarification. You are both a diplomat and a scientest.

Daryl

. .
(biointegra) - MLife

Locale: Puget Sound
Re: Re: A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words on 04/27/2011 13:12:46 MDT Print View

The variance between batches of the same Cuben fiber fabric IDs is not insignificant. I wonder if QC is improving over time?

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Re: A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words on 04/27/2011 14:06:25 MDT Print View

Hi Richard, thanks for all the hardwork. I'm having a hardtime accessing the source data. The link is leading me to a dead page. Not sure if it's just me. Thanks

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
I wonder if QC is improving over time? on 04/27/2011 14:27:58 MDT Print View

Aaron,

You asked a very interesting question and I have no idea what the answer is. Ken Larson has been trying to find the answer to it without any success to date. Cubic Tech does not test standard materials for applications other than those specifically mandated under contract (usually in advanced aerospace and near space applications).

Silnylon is another product in which the manufacturers don't generally provide hydrostatic head specifications or QC test for it. Offsetting this shortcoming, to some degree, was the remediation research done by Jim Woods. I thought that Ziff House's research with 2 part urethane coating might be the CTF3 equivalent but, it flaked off fairly quickly during the aging tests.

Edited by richard295 on 04/27/2011 22:18:06 MDT.

Daryl and Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Konrad Problem on 04/27/2011 14:34:26 MDT Print View

Konrad,

I also get a dead link about half the time I click the link. The other half I get the chart. I have no idea why.

Even when you get the chart you might miss it. It is small and off to one side of the screen. You must enlarge it.

Daryl

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
Re: Konrad Problem on 04/27/2011 14:37:13 MDT Print View

Hi Daryl, I've been getting the chart up fine most of the time, but its the 2nd link containing the source data that isn't working for me.

Also, were there some cuben samples that didn't make it through all 4 tests? A quick glance seems like some might be missing ( I think a couple samples from David Olsen). I'm hoping to find the optimal cuben weight that I can trust for semi-long term durability in terms of HH. I can see that 1.26oz/yd and above faired pretty well...I'm curious to know how the .70oz stuff did, but it looks like Ziff's sample was the only one, but it's not quite true to OEM specs given the extra urethane coating added.

Edited by Konrad1013 on 04/27/2011 14:43:06 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Konrad Problem on 04/27/2011 15:33:33 MDT Print View

Konrad,

Even I can't get the files on the external site to open some of the time. I just refresh my browser window and then re-click the link until I get it to work. The .pdf file has all of the source data and test notes.

If a Submission size was not large enough for a virgin test and an aging test then only the virgin test was done. This was part of Protocol B to insure that Roger Caffin always had a virgin copy for verification.

Batch 1 (submissions 1 - 22) only had one aging cycle done because most of the submissions dropped below the 1,500 mm minimum either before or after the first aging cycle. Submissions 23 - 49 had four aging cycles because the majority of the samples maintained more than 1,500 mm H20 even after the first aging cycle.

Submissions that weren't aged have a brown background. Non coated fabrics were not aged because they were not fly or floor materials. There were two batch 2 CTF3 submissions that were too small in size for a separate aging sample and have a brown background. Submission 23 had a virgin reading of 703 mm H2O (.75 oz/yd2) and submission 41 had a virgin reading >3,515 mm H2O (.51 oz/yd2).

The notes in the .pdf file also provide information supplemental to the ISO 811 test results. For example, the 3 layer eVENT had one pin hole that showed up for the first time on the fourth aging cycle.

Edited by richard295 on 04/27/2011 16:17:21 MDT.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Sign in to windows live? on 04/27/2011 16:06:18 MDT Print View

So I have to sign up for something called windows live to view the data?

I try very hard not to use windows stuff if I can. :^).

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Sign in to windows live? on 04/27/2011 16:22:17 MDT Print View

Dave,

It was my understanding that you didn't have to do anything but click my links. If that doesn't work for you, then email me. I will reply to your email with the two data files as email attachments.

Ryan W
(mwilks) - F
Re: Re: Sign in to windows live? on 04/27/2011 19:01:33 MDT Print View

The first link works fine and looks great by the way. The second link is also requiring me to sign into windows live.

Thanks for the work, most informative.