What beating, the one you were trying to give me?

I brought up a point in a very mild and polite manner. If taken differently, I am sorry, but not apologetic. Sorry people DID get defensive, but that is not my responsilibility.The only pushing I did, was to bring back the original point about weight savings.


I do believe that in certain instances sharing makes sense, but I would not push it on people. I find it interesting that even I have to overcome some resistance to it, but at least I am honest about it.

Edited by Kat_P on 03/28/2011 21:32:18 MDT.

"What beating, the one you were trying to give me?"

Oopsa, sorry! Should not have been a "beating" from either direction.


"I brought up a point in a very mild and polite manner. If taken differently, I am sorry, but not apologetic. Sorry people DID get defensive, but that is not my responsilibility."

To me, the title was perfectly logical and the thread did start off pretty mildly, but I (and looks like a few others too) did feel somewhat defensive as we read on.


'I do believe that in certain instances sharing makes sense, but I would not push it on people. I find it interesting that even I have to overcome some resistance to it, but at least I am honest about it."

Agree, but parts really did read like you were pushing. T's the thing about trying to discern intention through our computer screens. Oh well. No one has bad intentions here. And we move on, yeah?

On we move, yes.

I interpreted Kat's OP as directed toward raising awareness of the potential weight savings to be gained from sharing gear, not an evangelical quest to bring lightness to the unwashed. IMO, if awareness can be achieved, great; then all it takes is a little flexibility to determine when, and with whom, it makes sense. Like a number of people here, I do a lot of solo trips and have developed a kit that works for me. It is not as light as it could be, TP for instance, but plenty light enough to get the job done while taking my idiosyncrasies into consideration. OTOH, on those occasions when I do pack with others, usually only 1 person, the decision on whether or not to share usually comes down to the other person's preferences. If we do not share, I have a kit that works for me; if we do share, I may be able to shave a little weight off my load, but not enough for me to have strong feelings one way or another. I certainly wouldn't try to convince them, beyond initially expressing my openness to the idea of sharing if that makes sense to them. More often than not, we end up sharing water treatment, cook kit, and sometimes shelter, especially if the weather is looking iffy. Beyond that, I am almost infinitely flexible simply because, if I am packing with another person, my primary objective is the ensure that the trip is a joy for both of us; an extreme example from long ago was a trip where a good friend lost his toothbrush about 2 days into an 11 day trip and we shared mine for the remainder of the trip. Whatever it takes. Well.....almost. ;)

Missionary phase??? What???

This just keeps getting more and more surreal. What exactly is the resistance to Katharina's question? It's simple: Can people go lighter by sharing than if they go alone? What is so hard about understanding that???

My further comments are just suggestions for why there might be resistance to talking about Katharina's question, because, to me, the resistance in itself is really strange. The thread is now six pages long and only a very few have actually directly answered Katharina's question. And for some god knows reason Katharina is now in the position of having to defend herself for even asking the question. Why?!?! Did she ask something verboten that is too dastardly or complex to contemplate? I'm flabbergasted by the responses, especially from you, Ben. What does her question have to do with someone's preference for going alone???

Isn't this BPL? Or am I in the wrong forums? Isn't this where we used to get passionate about SUL gear lists and finding every possible way to lighten up our loads? So some of you have reached your "comfort zone". Great. You don't want to take off more weight. Great. You feel that others should do what makes them happy. Great. But again, what does that have to do with the original question?

Man, I feel like I've stepped into the Twilight Zone with this. It's kind of freaky. Maybe the earthquake has addled my brain and all the words I'm reading have been shaken right out of their places...

Edited by butuki on 03/28/2011 21:13:50 MDT.

How has such a simple and legitimate question turned into such a tense discussion?

...I

Edited by redmonk on 03/28/2011 22:57:04 MDT.

"Since I have no experience backpacking with groups, I thought sharing is what groups do."

To quote myself :)

I thought it was obvious, but perhaps some examples of the weight saving of sharing.
My lightest cookset is a 520ml british beer can protected in 2 pot noodle pots and holding a little meths burner and cone windshield pot support and matches and one spoon weight 120 grams. If you are not in a rush add another spoon and 2 people can eat and drink together for half of 132grams =66 grams.
A MLD solo tarp 161 grams an MLD duo 218 half of that 109 grams.
A laser 2 person tent 1300 grams, half 650 grams, a laser comp one person 940 grams.
A Rab 800 endurance 4 season sleeping bag 1400. Our amended rab 800 double top bag 1450 half of that 725. Admittedly if you could find a 4 season solo top bag it would be lighter than 1400 but I do not know of one. The amendment involves taking out the zip and adding a little down area to make the footbox bigger and adding a partial base sheet and some elastics.
It could be argued that a top bag is not quite as warm as a full mummy bag. It could also be argued that sleeping next to each other is warmer than insulating yourselves from one another.
Hot water bottle for emergency very cold nights, made from a 1 litre playpus, a self made cooking cosy of 6mm CCF that fits the platypus, my mitts and spare plastic bags, total extra weight 10 grams. Shared in a double bag, very cosy all night 5 grams. If 2 people in separate bags one person is cold.
First aid kit whatever it weighs shared it could weigh half.

Of course all these things take adaptions that are sometimes onerous but speaking to the question. The saving of these items seems to be 50-69%

sorry my computer was so slow I checked and the message had not appeared afterwards it did

Edited by Derekoak on 03/29/2011 04:17:27 MDT.

sorry

Edited by Derekoak on 03/29/2011 04:16:06 MDT.

I share. Stove. nothing wrong with taking turns eating. one starts cooking/eating and the other puts up tent and unpacks bag etc... then switch.

Wife and I share:
stove
shelter
first aid
water purification
bear bag/canister


that's off the top of my head.

My niece taught me that sharing is caring, so I share whenever possible :)

Almost all my hikes are with my girlfriend though. I think a huge benefit on the JMT this summer will be sharing a bear canister on the first half when resupply opportunities are frequent. We also share a shelter, stove and water purification. We usually use a filter though and the person not carrying it will carry some tablets. If I was to hike solo, I'd just use the tablets or drops, so I guess that's a net increase in weight. We each carry our own first aid kits, but not everything is the same in them so they complement each other.

Seems like once you get to UL or SUL the benefits of sharing aren't as great. When your kit is already light enough that sharing only saves a few ounces, it's probably better to be completely self sufficient and not share....especially if you don't typically hike with your group and have a greater chance of getting separated. If this question was asked on a traditional backpacking site, I'm sure the answers would be quite different.

If you look at the people who say they share gear it is usually a spouse, significant other or child / parent. I think this shows something very important.

I think it comes back to some of the tradeoffs people make when UL backpacking. Everyone has a different level of minimum comfort, tolerance for risk, and experience. In order to share gear effectively these 3 have to be very similar. With regular camping gear it really doesn't matter whose 6 pound tent you bring or whose pot set. With UL the lighter you get the more the entire gear choices based on a system working together. So sharing with Random people doesn't work as well. When it is someone you are close to you can agree to your level of comfort and build your kit around it.

The mountaineering comparison isn't quite correct. In mountaineering you have no choice but to place the survival of yourself in someone else's hand. Therefore you choose partners carefully and get to know them. Therefore you might as well share everything. Most hiking is not that commiting so it is very easy and not costly weight wise to be self sufficient. Also when hiking I've gone on hikes with various outdoor clubs without really knowing anyone on them. In these situations I perfer to have everything I need because I don't know the reliability of these people.

So in the end you have a possible benefit in sharing shelter and cooking gear and this can be realalized if you often hike with the same person and build your kit around sharing.

The final issue for sharing from a shelter point of view is that if your shelter is big enough to share isn't your shelter too heavy for your solo trips?

I usually share a shelter and stove system with one other person as I don't really hike alone often and I am building my kit around this philosophy. Although if I am going with people I am not familiar with I bring everything I need at the expense of some weight.

Edited by GregF on 04/04/2011 21:18:44 MDT.

Speaking of light; wouldn't hiring a porter to carry all of our gear make our packs much lighter?

i climb with random people all the time ... every time you climb with someone ... even if its top roping ... you trust them with your life ...

it doesnt matter if its tent, bag, TP, etc ... the moment you rope up, you have a sacred duty to your partner ...

now why someone would go hike with someone without the same commitment is beyond me ... if your down bag got soaked ... id offer you the chance to share my synth bag, if you were a hawt yung thang of course ;)

Katharina - yes it does make good sense to share. I own a 6 lb 2 man tent. I love to share, so my 6'3" 19 year old son carries it for us. And since he's out front (or more accurately I'm bringing up the rear) I never have any worries about shelter for the evening.

I carry the HikerPro filter. Seems like a fair trade to me...;-)

I've had mixed experiences with sharing gear. My biggest concern is sharing shelter. Some people are not as careful with equipment as myself. The delicate nature of some gear (shell material of sleeping bags) comes to mind. There is also the reality of where the tent is pitched. Gleaning the footprint and finding an area where all occupants have a rock or root free spot can be problematic. Privacy issues (tick check, snoring) keeping track of small gear items, muddy shoes, all add irritations. If I'm with a group I tend to pack more durable items. For me it's a tie.

Pack loads can be light enough that maybe 2 well matched people could actually carry just one pack and trade it back and forth throughout the day. It would be kind of like the single shoulder carry but rather than switching shoulders you switch people.

Edited by wildlife on 04/18/2011 15:40:27 MDT.

Katharina and Miguel (and a few others) "get it" - sharing equipment amongst a small group can very easily lead to efficiencies. You can use these efficiencies to carry less, to extend your comfort, or safety margins. Mountaineers, explorers, hunters, military personnel, and other people who work in the wilderness have understood this since the beginning of time.

A prime example is first aid - a group of three or four can actually carry an injured hiker over substantial distances to safety, execute crevasse rescue, sustain CPR etc.; whereas a solo or duo probably could not, even with special gear. I say this as a guy who has had to carry wounded off a battlefield, and who twisted my ankle so badly I broke the tip of my fibula.

I do not take issue with people who chose to go solo for whatever reason. But many of the responses to this thread follow a pattern of excuses to justify a personal preference, rather than reasonable arguments about what could be reasonable achieved by pooling resources. If you are cutting toothbrushes to save grams, then potentially sharing a stove between two people rather than carrying two stoves represents tangible weight savings, and these savings can easily scale upwards in technical or more extreme conditions.

A sensible precaution against people not bringing equipment, or not having things in a proper state of repair is running through the checklist and doing a "function check" at the trail head. You can personally bring everything you normally would, and adjust your load as necessary to cover shortfalls.