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Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start
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Sam Haraldson
(sharalds) - MLife

Locale: Gallatin Range
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 13:24:59 MDT Print View

> Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Quilt (prototype, 18 oz)

Oooh. Sounds yummy!

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 13:31:00 MDT Print View


I am not sure this will help you but:
1. Assume all insulation is Polarguard Delta at 2.2 oz per sq yard.
2. Assume the liner and shell material is Pertex Quantum.
3. Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Quilt (prototype, 18 oz). My guess is about 14 ounces of Polarguard Delta at 2.2 ounces per sq yard with a Pertex Quantum shell and liner. The Quilt is made like a TOP quilt and may be as much as three layers thick.
4. Bivy - Pertex Quantum Shell - Cuben Bottom. (3.0 oz)
5. Gossamer Gear NightLight Pad (18" x 29" x 3/4" - R-2.27)
6.Warmlight DAM - R-9

I sleep on my back most of the time.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/26/2006 13:34:15 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 13:44:08 MDT Print View

This might be better.

1. Cocoon jacket and pants while laying on my back:
====== = this is one layer and the top layer of PG - D at 2.2 oz per sq yard.
---------- - This is one layer and the bottom layer as I lay on it

This may be three layers of PG-D at 2.2 oz per sq yard and as a quilt

3. Gossamer Gear NightLight Pad (18" x 29" x 3/4" - R-2.27)

4.Warmlight DAM - R-9

Edited by bfornshell on 10/26/2006 13:46:03 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 14:17:30 MDT Print View

Bill-I don't have a loft number for PG Delta 2.2 oz. I do have info for PG Delta 2.7 oz at .6". If this is not what you meant, then please provide me the loft for 2.2 oz insulation batt.

Edited by richard295 on 10/26/2006 14:19:45 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 14:28:36 MDT Print View

Use your 2.7oz number that should give me enough information at this point.


Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 16:04:31 MDT Print View

Bill-I assumed all insulation batts were 2.7 oz/yd2 PG delta. The first scenario, using the Gossamer Gear NightLight pad, will yield an EN 13537 Lower Comfort temp of 27F. The second scenario, using the Warmlight DAM, will yield an EN 13537 Lower Comfort temp of -1 F.

In summary, for both scenarios the top of your body (65%) is insulated by 5.10 clo. This is comprised of .33 clo for the bivy air gap, 3.58 clo for the three layer quilt, and 1.19 clo for the uncompressed clothing insulation.

For scenario one, using the Nightlight pad, the bottom of your body (35%) is insulated by 1.03 clo. This is comprised of .13 clo for the compressed Cocoon clothing, and .919 clo for the NightLight Pad.

For scenario two, using the DAM, the bottom of your body (35%) is insulated by 3.72 clo. This is comprised of .13 clo for the compressed Cocoon clothing, and 3.59 clo for the DAM.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 16:58:53 MDT Print View


Thanks a lot for working out the numbers for me.

To keep things simple I will plan on the Warmlight DAM below freezing (32 degrees F) and the lighter pad above 32 degrees (F).

With the new "Profile" feature I maybe able to go
back and copy all your old "replys" about this type of question and see if I can teach myself how to do this.

Enjoy your hike.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/26/2006 17:12:33 MDT.

(jhaura) - F

Locale: Trail
Re: Wearable Sleep Gear on 10/27/2006 08:09:28 MDT Print View

Bill, hey there. If I correctly understand this thread so far on the topic of insulation (from Richards points and your posts), the gist is that you are thinking about a three layer insulation system:

(1) base layer (wool 2)

(2) med-high activity wearable synthetic loft layer

(3) zero-low activity coverup synthetic loft layer

Would you say this is an accurate summary?

One point you mentioned was to make the bottom half of layer (2) a pair of pants that could convert into a foot box type sleeping bag. Also you mentioned keeping it simple.

If I understand layer three correct, it seems that maybe a simple approach would be to just keep layer (2) bottoms as regular pants and extend your toe cozies into a more full coverage hot sox type item. This might result in lower overall weight and would elimate the engineering of an expandable pant bottom. As layer (3) will cover both torso, legs and feet, it would not seem to make any difference as to the configuration of the layer (2) insulation underneath, except for the mitten effect would be less since the feet would be somewhat separated by the sox.

This gives you a pair of camp booties, regular simple insulated pants and the same overall warmth if I am not mistaken. I'm sure someone will quickly set me straight if I am though...

Edited by jhaura on 10/27/2006 08:12:08 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Wearable Sleep Gear on 10/27/2006 11:52:02 MDT Print View


You are mostly correct.

I want a multi-layering system that when necessary and all worn together will keep me warm sleeping "over-night" to a low of at least "O" degrees F.

I want each layer to be as light as I can buy or make. The insulating layers I make will use Polarguard Delta and if I don't use light silk for the shell and liner material I will use Pertex Quantum.

The first layer or base layer may or may not be the #2 wool product from Patagonia. I found out when hiking in the White Mountains of NH during the winter and trying to wear Patagonia Capilene Silk weight top and bottoms, that the bottoms had to go. My legs just got to warm when moving. I also think from wearing #2 wool and Capilene, that the Capilene seems to block air better than the wool does. I believe that the #2 wool bottoms will be to warm to wear when moving. I have a lot of questions and not many answers yet.

I also want all my pants and upper body garments to have a side zipper or pit zips or some way to vent heat when necessary, if possible. The stock BMW Cocoon pants and Jacket I have do not "come with" a side zipper or pit zips vs the Mont-Bell Thermawrap pants with side zips that I also have. Pit zips are a little harder for me to have added or do myself.

As for the Pants/Sleeping Bag idea that is still being worked out and not a "for sure" item yet. It seems like a good idea but needs testing. You have some good ideas and I may try some of them during the testing phase.

The number of three layers may be four layers. I need to do some testing to decide what number gives me the most flexibility in the temperature range I expect. Starting at Springer Mountain in January and going north I could see a constant changing temperature/weather situation.

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/27/2006 19:14:39 MDT Print View

Bill: On Thursday morning I sent a package winging your way via priority mail. The original suspenders were cut away long ago, replaced with a single piece of webbing. I was suprised to see that the bag mode is wider and shorter than I remember, and that there are some significant gaps here and there. Oh well, the Wright plane wasn't a 747 either.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/27/2006 20:03:50 MDT Print View

Thanks Robert.
I am anxious to see just what they look like and how they were made.

It will be interesting to see if I can come up with a modern version. I will post some pictures of the stock item when I get them. I expect a few others may be interested in what they look like.

Priority Mail is quick some time so I would expect to see them early next week. With a good tail wind maybe on Saturday.

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/27/2006 22:00:35 MDT Print View

From an alcohol-ravaged brain: The Nunatak Skaha Plus Vest is a hooded, ultralight (under 6 oz total weight size medium), fully baffled zip neck vest filled with 800+ high loft goose down. It (or a homemade version) might go well with a bib-style insulated pant. This combo leaves out the arms, but bike shops sell removeable arm warmers.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Robert: The Package Arrived on 10/28/2006 14:26:02 MDT Print View

I have been looking at the Nunatak web site a lot. I saw the hooded vest. I have a pattern for a hooded vest but it is waiting its turn on the "to do" list. The first one I make will use Polarguard Delta. I have a Down hood that I made a couple years ago to wear if I need it. It goes with my Hammock "0" degree sleep system.

The best news is that your "Package Arrived" and "it" is here.

Thank you very much.

I just got your package. Sometimes the US Postal System even surprises me.

I just took "it" out of the box and as soon as I understands how it works I will take some pictures of "it".

"it" came at a good time. I just dyed 25 yards of silk.

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/28/2006 17:36:05 MDT Print View

Bill: I love your wording: it's so mysterious, everyone will think "it" is at least immoral, if not illegal. My life should be so exciting. Good luck.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Old REI Pants - Half-Bag Combo on 10/28/2006 18:56:46 MDT Print View

Old REI Pants - Half-Bag Combo

This is "it". An older (?) model REI (Down) Pants / Half-Bag Combo that Robert sent me. It weighs 30.86 ounces and the tag says the Shell material is 100% Nylon. The name tag inside it says REI CO-OP and the snaps even say REI CO-OP on them.

The design as you will see from the pictures is sort of simple. The one I have is a size large and is about 50" long. When worn as a pair of pants it comes up above my waist and to within 8" of my arm pits. It has two heavy YXX zippers. I think the zippers are heavier than a #5. When wearing "it" as pants or laying in "it" as a half-bag I get warm real fast.

To make something like this as a MYOG project my first estimate using Pertex Quantum for both the liner and shell and one layer of Polarguard - Delta insulation and a set of lighter zippers would be a weight of something less than 9 ounces. I might be able to down-size the large to a size medium and bring the weight down a little.

I will start work on a pattern Sunday. I will make a prototype to test the pattern and see if it works like I want it to.

Set-up to use as a half-bag:

Me sitting in "it":

The change over from bag to pants:

Me wearing "it" as a pair of Down pants:

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 11/01/2006 21:36:55 MST Print View

Bill: Glad to see your message on another web site! Now get back to work entertaining us with your great designs!

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Answers and Questions for Richard on 11/04/2006 21:31:10 MST Print View

Answers and Questions for Richard

A couple months ago you stated and / or asked the following:

Richard stated:
"Now for the controversial part <grin>.

Insulation clo/oz % loft when wet

Polarguard Delta .68 -40
Primaloft Sport .74 -11
Climashield XP .77 -??
Primaloft One .84 -00

500 fill down 4.5 -60
800 fill down 2.5 -60

1. Q - Would you investigate a DIY source for Primaloft One? It would be the optimal solution for wet environments. Brian’s counterpart for Primaloft is Arnie Liati in the Primaloft Issaquah, WA office.

1. A - I could not find anyone that was retailing PL-One. I decided to call PrimaLoft and see what it takes to buy direct from them. I finally found a little time to call and ask. I filled out a form for them and asked about getting a sample of PL - One 1.8 ounce a sq yard insulation. I have had a 5 yard sample request approved and they assigned a Sale Rep to me. The sample will be shipped Monday next week. I asked about buying some and was given a price for one roll. I will wait till I can make a few things with the sample and test them before I decide if I want to buy a roll. The sample will be enough to make several items to test / compare with the other insulation I have. I will make a Quilt / Liner for my Bivy with some of the PL-1, 1.8 oz a sq yard material so I can do a direct comparison with my other Quilts / Liners. I talked to my Sales Rep Friday late and asked for samples of several other interesting PrimaLoft products and will find out about them next week. I also suggested he look at this site and he logged onto it as we spoke. He and his wife are "Trail Runners" and he is interested in lighter gear. They are doing a race someplace next year.

One problem (maybe) working with Primaloft One will be the need to stabilize the insulation in a different manner than I have had to with the Polarguard Delta and the Climashield Combat. I will have to sew the Primaloft One in 6" squares or do the button/tuck quilting trick. I will sew or whatever the PrimaLoft One between two layers of my light silk to save weight and save my good material. Since I am making my quilts to go inside my Bivy and the Bivy shell is Pertex Quantum I think this technique will workout OK.

I did a little math and I should be able to make a PrimaLoft One quilt the same size as my other two at about or a little less weight. If the sample is at or near the 1.8 ounce a square yard range the higher clo of the PrimaLoft One should keep all the quilts at about the same low temperature range.

2. Q - Would you let us know what quilt weight you could achieve using 800 fill down for your quilt? It is available from multiple sources and has a much better clo/oz value for dry environments.

2. A - I did a little math to see what the answer to this might be but I need to work on it a little more. I need to figure out the sewing for sewn baffles. The way I have worked with Down in the past was with a removable baffle or side-in silk tube of Down. Doing it that way let me use the Down Tubes for other things but did add a little weight. I need to practice making the baffles a different way and when I work that out I can then weigh the material and add the Down weight for a "best guess" answer. It would seem that the Down Quilt / Liner has to be lighter by a bit. The difference might be an ounce or so over the current Quilts / Liners that weigh 6.5 to 7.5 ounces. The total weight for a Down Quilt same size, same Temp range (40 degrees F) might be as low as 6 ounces using my light silk as the shell and liner material.

3. Q - My experience with synthetic bags is that I get about a 40% reduction in loft after one season’s use and then they stabilize at that loft. The temperature rating drops and stabilizes accordingly. I haven’t experienced more than 10% degradation in my down bags after multiple years of use. No one on the BPL forums has ever compared the loft degradation history between various synthetics. Would you monitor the loft degradation with your quilt experiments?

3. A - I don't know how I will do this but I will try an watch what happens over time.

4. Q - From your conversations with the Polarguard folks do you know what the Climashield XP loft reduction is when wet?

4. A - The next time I have a chance to talk to someone like Brian I will ask about this and see what they say.

I have also updated my gear list which is on the first post of this thread.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/04/2006 23:15:15 MST.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Answers and Questions for Richard on 11/04/2006 22:36:59 MST Print View

Bill-Thank you for the status update. I will be closely monitoring your "tell it like it is" test reports.

It will be very interesting to see if the theory matches the real world.

(jhaura) - F

Locale: Trail
Re: Wearable Quilts on 11/04/2006 22:53:05 MST Print View

Bill, hey there. The list is looking good. Lot's o' cuben!

I just ordered 6 yards of Climashield XP and 10 yards of 4.5mm silk for a couple quilts.

We've spoken about a system of top and bottom insulation that can be worn, and you have made the tunic.

I was brainstorming on ways to "wear" two quilts in such a way as to cover top and bottom without making slits or using zippers.

My patience is short lived on complex patterns and gear, so I was thinking of how to make it a dead simple wrap.

I'm relaying this to you before I have done any real work on the idea because I know your tinkering with those REI pants and other stuff and it might fuel another direction, or at least you may have some input for me as I get going on it.

There are two main configurations I have been thinking about:

1. Two single layer quilts in similar dimensions to your tunic. In "sleep mode" they are layered on top of you as needed, one or two. This is what you are doing now with the tunic and liner.

In "clothing mode" one quilt is draped with the top (wide part) on your back at shoulders. The other, the same but on chest. They are attached at sides of neck via a button or snap. At this point you are wearing both quilts vertically, with the foot area overflowing on the floor at front and rear of your feet. The quilts are suspended on your shoulders.

I was thinking if you attach the two quilts via a shockcord belt or two buttons at the waist, you could then take the rear quilt below the waist and wrap it around one leg all the way down to the ankles and attach it with buttons/snaps in a couple places. After doing the same with the other leg using the front quilt, the torso and legs would be fully covered. The shockcord belt or buttons at the waist should keep both quilts centered covering your bum and privates, while the lower part of each quilt angles off to each leg.

No slits, no zippers. Full coverage except arms and feet in clothing mode. One or two layer quilt in sleep mode.

Drawback: limited bending over ability. Quilts may bind at waist, like coveralls. Maybe not.

2. Four half quilts. All separate pieces.

Make two top halves of a quilt one with a drop tail (like on a shirt). Wear in same fashion as above with drop tail piece in rear. This covers your top like your tunic.

Make two bottom halves of a quilt. Wear like highwaisted skirt with halves flipped upside down so narrow lower leg dimension is at waist and wider hip dimension is at ankles. Giving a wider bottom for leg stride. The two bottom halves could attach via two buttons or shockcord at the belly/solar plexus, and a couple buttons down the sides to enclose it. Much better movement and flexibility than the first method.

In sleep mode button/snap a top piece to a bottom piece (bottom piece flipped around now with hip dimension at hips) for a single layer quilt. Using existing snaps/buttons form footbox. For the two halves point of attachment should overlap a bit so there is not a cold spot at the union of the two pieces. Do same with two remaining pieces if a second layer is needed. You know have a single or double layer quilt. And an enclosed footbox.

I like this method the best for flexibility and ease of skirt mode instead of wrapping each leg.

No expensive insulated garments to buy, and less gear to pack.

I know this may be hard to follow without graphics/pictures, but I thought I would throw it out there until I piece together same samples.

Edited by jhaura on 11/04/2006 23:07:17 MST.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Wearable Quilts on 11/05/2006 00:02:02 MST Print View

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, lots of Cuben. Go Cuben - Defy Gravity. I am waiting for them to bring their WPB version to market. I was told that their test runs came out about .7 ounce per sq yard.

I am trying to make my wear/sleep system without having to sew zippers. I will try and use buttons and fasteners of some type if possible. I have a bunch of zippers and will use them if all else fails or gets to busy. I may try to color code my buttons for ease of assembly or to change the set-up.

I have the answer to the lightest - temperature controllable - WPB - and everything else we want in our gear but need some seed money to develop it - like Bill Gates and a couple billion dollars.

My list of projects "started" keeps getting longer as I keep finding new materials to play with. A few of them are waiting on stuff that is "in the mail".

I am sure we will come up with something "Wearable Quilts ETC" that will work. How well it works, well, time will answer that question.

You should like the Climashield XP. I have some and will use it for a vest soon. Are you going to dye the silk? Rite dye works OK on silk.

I follow most of what you are talking about. Think about a one layer WPB cover shell of some sort to help keep everything dry if it rains on you.