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Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start
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Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/20/2006 10:24:29 MDT Print View

Last Up-Date: 9 January 2007

MYOG - AT- Gear List for a January 2007 AT Start

Part One -
January Start - AT Thru-Hike 2007 Gear List:
Springer Mountain to Harpers Ferry

I have my first 2 hikes (short but not easy this past October in Georgia)) under my belt since my cancer treatment has been over and now I am ready to plan a longer hike.

I want to try and complete an AT Thur-Hike during 2007. Because of numerous follow-up exams from my cancer treatment program I will need to hike in segments of 60 to 75 days.

My challenge then will be to develop a series of Super Ultra Light (SUL) Gear Lists that will run through the four seasons I expect I will see during my 2007 AT Hike.

The first gear list will be a Winter list that would take me from Springer Mountain Georgia in mid January to Harpers Ferry (1008 miles) by the end of April. I am going to design a gear list that is very light but at this time I have no idea how light. Staying in the 5 pound SUL pack weight will be my goal but may not be possible during this part of the Hike. My planning goal will be the SUL weight range.

Note: Super Ultra Light was defined by Ryan Jordan in his article titled
SuperUltraLight: Breaking the Five-Pound Barrier on 08/06/2003

My focus for now will be in the Shelter, Sleeping and Clothing area as these items need to work together as a system to keep my weight down as low as possible and deal with the cold weather I expect. I will be testing a number of current MYOG items and several (to be made) items over the next two months. I have also gotten or will get soon some new material to try out.

============ 0 ============

Winter Season - January to March 2007

1. PACK - SHELTER - SLEEPING: The following list is only a guide/shell at this time for the items I expect to need.

Pick List or to make:

1-a. Backpack (?) MYOG - Cuben / Mod G6 6.0(?)

1-b. New External Pack Frame(?) Current Frame 22.0

1-c. Pack liner(?) GG-med 1.35

1-d. Shelter(?) MYOG (?)
1-d-1. Sleep at a Shelter but carry a small Tarp 5.0(?)
1-d-2. Sleep in a MYOG - NEMO GOGO Style Tent
1-d-3. Sleep in a smaller MYOG Solo Tent

1-e. Sleeping System(?) MYOG (?)
1-e-1. Some type DAM(?)
- WarmLight DAM 24.53 oz - Inflate Bag 2.79 oz 27.32
1-e-2. Polarguard Delta Quilt/Tunic 7.82
1-e-3. Climashield - Combat Quilt/Liner - Good to 42 degrees in Bivy 6.64
1-e-4. MYOG - Down Quilt 4" to 4.5" loft - good to "O" degrees F(?) 17.0
1-e-5. GG ThinLight Pad - 3/8"(?) 6.91
1-e-6. GG ThinLight Pad - 1/4"(?) 5.33
1-f. Bivy Sack (?) Sleeping at a Shelter or with a Tarp. 3.0

1-g. Ground Sheet (?) Use with Bivy or Tent GG Polycryo Cloth (M) 1.65

2. CLOTHING: The following list is only an example guide/shell at this time for the items I expect to need.

Pick list or MYOG replacement:
Hiking Pants Cloudveil Peak Pants size M 10.0p
Patagonia Silk Boxers(M) 3.92(?)
Patagonia #1 Capailene Briefs(M)(?) 1.57(?)
Patagonia - Active Wind Brief(M)(?) 2.0(?)
New Balance Running Shorts 4.51(?)
Base / wicking layer top (?)
2-a-1 RBH Designs NTS Shirt(M) 14.0w
2-a-2 Patagonia #2 Capilene(L) 5.76(?)
2-a-3 Patagonia #2 Wool Hoody(L) 8.0p
Base / wicking layer bottom (?)
2-b-1 RBH Designs NTS Pants(M) 13.0w
2-b-2 Patagonia #1 Capilene Bottoms(M) 4.59(?)
2-b-3 Patagonia #2 Wool Bottoms(L) 6.34p
2-b-4 Sahalie-Ultralight Tights(?) 1.6(?)
Insulating top (?)
2-c-1 Tunic-Poncho Liner / Quilt 7.65p
2-c-2 Hooded Vest (?)(To Make?) (?)
2-c-3 BMW - Cocoon Pullover(?)(XL) 9.9(?)
2-c-4 MB - Parka(XL)(?) 14.5(?)
2-c-5 Patagonia - Puff Ball Pullover(XXL)(?) 13.7(?)
2-c-6 Patagonia - Puff Ball Vest(XL)(?) 12.1(?)
2-c-7 MB - Thermawrap Vest(L)(?) 8.1p
Insulating bottoms (?)
2-d-1 Pants / sleeping bag bottom(?) (?)
2-d-2 Insulated Chaps - Legs or Arms(?) 9.6(?)
2-d-3 BMW - Cocoon Pants(L)(?) 8.1(?)
2-d-4 MB - Thermawrap Pants(L)(?) 11.4(?)
Raingear (top only)(?)
2-e-1 Cuben Poncho (2.8)
2-e-2 OR Celestial XL (12.7)?*
Raingear (bottoms) (?)
2-f-1 Cuben Chaps(?) ?
Waterproof glove shells(?)
2-g-1 Cuben Mitts 0.37p
2-g-2 OR Rain Mitts 3.1p
Windgear (soft shell) top(?) Marmont Ion size L 3.53p
Windgear (soft shell) bottoms(?) Cuben Chaps(?) ?
Glove Liners (?)
2-h-1 - size L Manzella - Power Dry 10 L(?) 1.128(?)
2-h-2 - size XL Possumdown(?) 1.4(?)
2-h-3 - size M Patagonia Lightweight Glove Liners(?) 0.83w
Mitts - Cold Weather(?)(note-1)
2-i-1 - size XL BMW - FeatherLite Vapor Mitts(?) 4.51(?)
2-i-2 - size L Patagonia Nitro Shells (inserts-5.2) 4.0(?)
Warm hat (?) TNF - Fleece(?) 2.56(?)
Neck protection(?) ? ?
Psolar.BX(?) Balaciava w/Module 2.4p
Balaclava Cocoon UL 60 1.8p
Socks (?) Wright-Sock 1/4 1.7p
Spare socks(?) Wright-Sock 1/4 1.7p
Toe Cozies(?) Climashield Combat 0.63(?)
Vapor Barrier Booties Cuben 0.23(?)
Vapor Barrier Booties Rocky Gore-Tex - size 10L(?) 3.33(?)
Vapor Barrier Socks RBH Designs - size 10(?) 3.32w
Trail Runners(?)
2-j-1 TNF Ultra 103 XCR -size 11 36.3(?)
2-j-2 TNF Hedgehog XCR - size 11 32.3w
Trail Runner Overboots(?)
2-k-1 Kahtoola Flight Boot XL(?) 46.0(?)
2-k-2 MYOG(?) ?
Clothing stuff sack (?) (?)
Pack: 49.36 oz / 3.08 pounds Wear: 63.45 oz / 3.96 pounds
1 - Mitts will be worn on my feet at night to help keep them warm.
2 - Wear = 63.45 oz. This is equal to "wear" most of the time. Very cold weather will require I wear more at times. very warm weather will require I wear less at times.

3. COOKING - WATER: The following list is only an example guide/shell at this time for the items I expect to need.

Pick List or MYOG replacement:

Stove(?) (?) 0.0
Windscreen (?) 0.0
Fuel bottle (?) 0.0
Matches / lighter Strike anywhere matches 0.2
Cook pot N/A 0.0
Cook pot lid N/A 0.0
Drinking mug 12 oz Soda Can 0.42
Utensils Home-Made Ti Spoon 0.23
Food storage bag Zip Locks(?) (?)
Bear bag hang system Weight counted with Pack 0.0
Water storage (?)
1 Liter Platy "bottle" 2 each(?) 1.56
Platy 2 Reservoir (?) 1.13(*) 0.0
Nalgene 48 oz Cantene(2.3oz) 4 serving Liquid Food container 55.0(*1)
Water treatment (?)
3-a-1. Katadyn Micropur MO1 Tablets (15 = 0.41) (0.41?)
3-a-2 Cuben Gravity Water Filter - If Taken - 5.61 (?)
Esbit Tablets 1 each(?) 0.5

*1 - Start each day with the Nalgene Cantene full (4 servings) to save the prep time for the food while hiking. 1 serving with water is equal to 13.2 ounces.

4. MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS: The following list is only an example guide/shell at this time for the items I expect to need.

Pick List or MYOG replacement:

Flashlight / LED 1 white photon(CR2016x1) 0.2c
Headlamp/LED Atom-Cyclops(CR2016x2) 0.89p(?)
Headlamp/LED Petzl e+Lite (CR2032x2) 0.92p
Headlamp/LED Princeton Tec Quad(3AAA-Reg) 3.48p
Trekking poles (3.67 x 2) Home-Made Trekking Pole 7.35c
Headnet(?) When necessary- add 0.33 oz 0.0p(?)
Ear plugs (?) 0.07p
Bug dope When necessary 0.0p
Blistex Ultra 1.0p
Toothbrush toothbrush 0.2p
Toothpaste (use Dr. Bronner's) 0.0p
Soap(?) Dr. Bronner's soap 0.2p
Toilet paper 6 squares per day (?)p
Potty trowel Home-Made Ti 0.31p
Wet Ones Pack of 15 (0.21 oz each) (?)p
First Aid Kit
4-a-1 Blister & minor wound care 2.3p
4-a-2 Hydropel Ointment (?)p
4-a-3 Boudreaux's Butt Paste (?)p
Whistle Attached to Sternum Strap 0.1c
Firestarting kit 0.2p
Repair Kit
4-a-1 Extra Batteries (?)p
4-a-2 LED screw driver set-2 0.215p
4-a-3 Repair Parts (?)
Sun Glasses Good Ones 2.9(?) (?)
Ski Goggles If necessary 5.8(?) (?)
4-b-1 Fog Clear if carrying goggles(?) 0.23(p)
4-b-2 Soft Cloth if carrying goggles(?) 0.28p
Watch 2.5c
Compass (on watch) 0.0c
Maps (?)c
Camera Kit
4-c-1 Casio - EX-Z750 5.5c
4-c-2 Gorillapod Tripod 1.5c
4-c-3 aloksak - 4x7 bag for camera & stuff 0.23
Journal Kit
4-d-1 PocketMail 10.9(?)
4-d-2 Rite In The Rain notebook 0.7p
4-d-3 Nalgene Waterproof Pen 0.3p
4-d-4 Cell Phone(?) (?)
Snow Shoes(?) NorthernLites - Backcountry Rescue 43.0p(?)
Snow Shoes(?) Kahtoola - Flight Deck 43.0p(?)
Crampons(?) Kahtoola Steel 23.02(?)
Screwboots Set (40 screws) 2.52

Screwboots Set (40 screws) 2.52
Pack 11.1 oz / 0.69 pounds Wear 17.38 oz / 1.09 pounds
sub total with 5 days of food.
sub total 1 in pack = 134.49 oz / 8.41 pounds plus 8.75 pounds = 17.16 pounds.
sub total 2 in pack = 126.49 oz / 7.91 pounds plus 8.75 pounds = 16.66 pounds.
sub total 3 in pack = 109.83 oz / 6.86 pounds plus 8.75 pounds = 15.61 pounds.

5. CONSUMABLES: The following list is only an example guide/shell at this time for the items I expect to need.

Pick List:


Total Per One Day 29.2+/- ounces and equals 3540 calories per day.

5-a-1 Dry Ensure - 1 day (10 - servings) in a Zip Lock weighs 21.7 ounces and equals 2500 calories.
5-a-2 Carnation Breakfast Mix - 1 day (10 - servings) in a Zip Lock weighs 2.91 ounces and equals 250 calories 520
5-a-3 Hammer Perpetuem - 1 day (2 - servings) in a Zip Lock weighs 4.53 ounces and equals 520 calories.

5-a-4 Food Totals Per Re-Supply 1 day = 29.2 oz / 1.82 lb
2 days = 58.4 oz / 3.64 lb
3 days = 87.6 oz / 5.46 lb
4 days = 116.8 oz / 7.28 lb
5 days = 146 oz / 9.1 lb
6 days = 175.2 oz / 10.92
7 days = 204.4 oz / 12.74 lb
8 days = 233.6 oz / 14.56 lb
9 days = 262.8 oz / 16.38 lb
10 days = 292.2 oz / 18.2 lb

5-a-5 700 miles per resupply 35 days = 1022 oz / 63.87 lb

5-b-1 -
Dry Ensure

5-b-2 -
Hammer - Perpetuem

Water 2 L average carried (?) 64.0 / 4 - lb (?)
Fuel Maybe No Hot Meals - Liquid Diet (?) 0.0
Medicine (?)
?.?? lb (?)

In Pack - ??.?? oz (?.?? lb) (Goal for Sub 5-lb is 80 ounces.
Wear / Carry - ??.?? oz (?.?? lb)
Consume -???.?? oz (?.?? lb)
???.?? oz

Total Hike Weight ... ?? lb / ?.?? oz (?)

Total Pack Weight Start Day 1 ... ???.?? oz or ?? lb / ?.?? oz (?)

(1) - Food will be mostly Dry Ensure (DE) with a small amount of Carnation Instant Breakfast Drink for flavor and Hammer Perpetuem (HP) mixed in all my drinking water. A serving size for the Dry Ensure will be 250 calories (2.05 ounces) plus 32.5 calories (0.27 ounces) from the Carnation IBM. The serving per weight total is 282.5 calories and weighs 2.32 ounces. Mixing the Hammer Perpetuem (HP) with my drinking water will give me another 520 +/- calories per day along with a good mix of vitamins and nutrients. Food and HP weight per day will be about 20.88 ounces and Hammer P will be about 4.23 ounce - total will be about [25.11 ounces] or 1 pound - 9.11 ounces. 3 days = [75.33 ounces] or 4 lb - 11.33 oz / 5 days = [125.55 ounces] or 7 lb - 13.55 ounces.

My daily food plan is a double serving for breakfast and then one serving every 90 minutes of my hiking day. I will have another double serving as my evening meal at the end of my hiking day. I can drink my food warm or cold. I don't expect to warm water for my breakfast food but may heat water for my evening food. To reduce the 90 minute food pre time I will pre-mix 5 servings each morning and carry them in a 48 ounce Wide Mouth Nalgene Cantene. This should reduce the number of times I need to stop for water during the day.

(2) I will be wearing a RBH Vapr Thrm NTS Shirt and the NTS Pants on my hike this month if I can ever get out of Texas. I will start each day with the Shirt and Pants on - cold or warm - and wear them as long as I can each day. I will be recording the temperature every 2 hours and will recored how the RBH items are working. If I get to hot, I will note that, and if I can't vent enough to cool of I will remove them. I will wear them next to my skin and as my only garments as long as I can. I will also wear them to sleep each night or at least to start each night. I will live in them 24 hours a day if possible. I want to really see what temperature range I can make them work for me.

My NTS Shirt can vent through zip'ed mesh pockets and I am getting the optional "Forearm Zipper Vents". The NTS Pants come with 16" outside leg zippers to vent my legs if / when necessary. I have used VB's in my Down sleeping bags and on my feet for over 15 years so the trick will be to see how I do with the RBH Shirt and Pants over a broad temperature range.

Edited by bfornshell on 07/08/2007 21:27:53 MDT.

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/20/2006 22:40:03 MDT Print View

Bill, you might be interested in a pair of down pants that REI stopped making decades ago but they convert to a sleeping bag bottom: the leg zippers are on the INSIDE of the legs. As you sit looking down at the zipped up pants, the top of the R. leg zips to the bottom of the R. leg, the same for the L. leg. If you then un-zip both, they rigged it so that the top of the R. leg also zips to the top of the L. leg, and the bottom of the R. leg zips to the bottom of the L. leg, forming a tube. Cinch cords pull the tube tight below the feet, forming a half-bag.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 00:33:47 MDT Print View


That is one of the things I am making to try out. I didn't see the ones you are talking about from REI but have seen that idea from someone else. I have a pair of pants made and just have to sew in the zippers. I don't have the "cinch " cord worked out yet but as soon as I get the zippers sewn I should see how to do that. I will then make another larger pair for the insulation. I will use a synthetic insulation on the first ones and see how that works.

It is a good idea and its just to bad they stopped making them. Do you have a pair of the REI ones?

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/21/2006 02:28:10 MDT Print View

Bill: I own a pair, but the fabric is so heavy and the down must be about 500 fill, so I've never used them in the field.

Incidentally, in order to become a bag, the garment must be longer than you would normally use for pants. The waist is so high on the REI version that they came with suspenders (made from Cuben cloth, of course.) You can also hide extra length by accordian-ing the legs upwards a little.

Another potential problem area is that the zippers could scrape against each other unless there are flaps involved.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 06:45:39 MDT Print View


Mine are made sort of from a pattern for "bib overalls" to get the extra length as a bag. Don't ask how I figured that one out.

For now my first pants/bag will use buttons as they are easier then sewing zippers and lighter. The suspenders (made from Cuben cloth, of course and connected by more buttons.

Would you like to sell yours or loan then out to have a pattern made from them?

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/21/2006 08:15:00 MDT Print View

Bill: I'll give them to you for free as soon as I can get them out of storage (in a week or two). My favorite things in the Universe are good ideas, and if my White Elephant pants will spark some good ideas, more power to them and to you.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 08:30:22 MDT Print View

Thanks Robert,

I will try and do a pattern from them and post it so anyone that wants to try and make a pair can.

Several companies are making a half bag but that only does one thing. I think the key to a light pack in cold weather and "not be a danger to yourself" is many or all multipurpose things. Staying warm is the top of my list. I might take being wet at times but not cold and wet at the same time.

(RavenUL) - F
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 09:30:38 MDT Print View

I talked to Bob Molen at Big Sky months before the big debacle with the tents came into play. We chit chatted for a while and came up with a similar idea as those REI pants.

One of the things we figured out is that if the pants could be mated to the jacket in some manner (zipper, snaps, buttons, what have you) then you wouldnt need the extra length above the hips. You would just wear the pants "low".

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 10:29:27 MDT Print View

Thanks for the comment JR,

My pants will look a lot like Bib Overalls. KWIK-SEW #KS2331 has a pattern for what they call Rain and Ski Pants/Bibs.

I will have an insulated Jacket of sorts that will go with the pants/bag idea. Once I get something made I will see if I want or need to connect the top with the bottoms.

I want to keep this all as simple as possible so it is easy to make.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/21/2006 10:48:46 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 11:14:05 MDT Print View

For any given temperature there will be a ~ 7.5 to 8.75 x difference between the pant's insulation you require when hiking versus use as a sleeping bag bottom.

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/21/2006 11:40:58 MDT Print View

Bill: That's a good idea. (Not as good an idea as SEX or THE SUNSET, but OK.) Is your mailing address a matter of public record?

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 11:45:00 MDT Print View


I agree with you but I don't have the technical skills to come up with numbers like you can. This is why I want several layers that can be used together if necessary at night or in camp to stay warm. It doesn't take much to keep me warm while I am moving.

If I plan to use Polarguard Delta (I have enough PG-D without having to buy any more insulation) what do you suggest for the number of layers and how much insulation for each layer? For planning I expect a low temperature of "0" F. would be good enough.

I would use a bivy as my WPB outer-shell so some of my layers can be made out light silk to keep weight down as low as possible.


Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 11:54:22 MDT Print View


My address as a matter of public record? - well all our taxing agencies seem to know it. I am also in the phone book.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/21/2006 12:16:48 MDT.

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/21/2006 12:10:13 MDT Print View

Bill: Got it. To echo a previous poster, "Good on you."

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 14:41:49 MDT Print View

Bill's 0F Backpack Requirement Analysis

Activity------------------Body clo
Laying down---------------7.024
Walk around camp----------2.341
UL Back Pack Min----------1.756
UL Back Pack Max----------1.003

Assuming no wind penetration and no body movements to pump air around, conventional clothing insulation (cotton, silk, wool, rayon, etc) = 0.15 x weight of clothes in lbs. (i.e., 0.15 clo per lb of clothes). So 10 lbs. clothes = 1.5 clo.

Using the average for synthetic high-loft insulations, they provide about 4.7 clo /inch in a lab and about 4 clo / inch when worn. So using the conservative 4 clo number it would take 1.756 / 4 = .439" while UL backing at 0F.

My off-the-shelf high tech approach would be to wear, a thin long underwear base layer for moisture management and my Patagonia Puffball jacket and pants for insulation while UL backpacking at 0F. At .6" loft they are about 27% loft overkill for this application. They would have to be partially unzipped to vent the excess heat while UL backpacking. My L hooded jacket weighs 17oz and my L pants weigh 16oz for a total of 33 oz. .6" loft * 4 clo effective = 2.4 clo. 2.4 clo / 2.06 lb = 1.17 clo per lb of clothes. In other words, a representative off-the-shelf high tech solution, to this problem, is about 7.8 times more weight efficient than conventional clothing.

For sitting around camp I would add a 800 fill 3/4" loft down vest under my Puffball jacket. This would provide 1.77 clo of incremental whole body insulation if it wasn't layered under my jacket. Do to the compression of the jacket the insulation would change from abut 1.77 to 1.51 for a total of 3.9 clo. I would have to only very slightly vent my ensemble from overheating because it is greater than the 3.5 clo I would require for sitting around.

For sleeping, I would augment my day time insulation with my quilt or bag and pad insulation. I would try and layer my synthetic insulation at the top of my sleeping ensemble so that the dew point would fall there or above. This is where the optimal solution becomes more complicated and I discussed only one option of many in the forum topic dealing with torso blankets.

Note that I used a value of 4 MET for min hiking and 7 MET for max hiking heat generation. 7 MET is about the maximum that the average person can sustain for a full day. You could have short MET burst rates more than double that amount. You just unzip your jacket, if necessary, after a short MET burst.

Edited by richard295 on 10/21/2006 18:22:21 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 17:21:27 MDT Print View

Thanks Richard for taking the time to do this for me. It seems that I might be able to do this in a "light" way (I don't want to say - easier) but maybe not as hard as I first thought. Thanks also for the "off the shelf" examples. That helps a lot as I have a couple of the items you talk about.

Wearing a set of Patagonia #2 wool top and bottoms, socks and my toe cozy's, Possumdown gloves, wool "watch cap" and inside my Pertex Quantum/Cuben Bivy with my Climashield Combat and silk liner down to 42 degrees F and I was OK to warm. That is a far way from "0" F but seems do-able.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 19:34:24 MDT Print View

Bill-Your balloon bed (R value 1.01) was the weakest link in your prior sleeping ensemble test. I wouldn't recommend this type of pad below 70F. If you sleep on your stomach about 50%, back about 35%, and side about 18%, of your total insulation is determined by the pad.

For temperatures below your custom balloon bed range and above your custom down air mattress (R value ~5.9 for 2.8 inches) range there are at least two excellent alternatives: a 3.7oz Gossamer Gear NightLight (R value 2.7) or a 10.5oz TorsoLite (R value 3.5).

Pads are typically rated via R value and clothing by clo. They both measure the same thing, insulation provided by a specified thickness of material. To keep things simple I converted the R values referenced above into clo values:

R value----------clo value

Edited by richard295 on 10/22/2006 11:13:41 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 21:14:56 MDT Print View


Yes, You are correct about he balloon bed. The night I slept on it the temperature went down to 56 degrees (F). I had a small chemical heat pad that I put in the Bivy. This worked OK but I would have had a cold backside without it. I was sleeping at Woods Hole Shelter and was on the Shelter floor without pads. I have a lot of different kinds / brands of sleeping pads to play with.

I really like a Down Air Mattress (DAM) when I need something to sleep on in the 0 to 30 degree or so temperature range. It is just hard to go the DAM route with anything full size and get near the one pound weight mark. Each 78" poly tube with a silk tube and 1 ounce of 800+ Down in it weighs 2.48 ounces. A DAM for my Bivy would need to be 78 to 80" long and near 27" at the wide point. Strangely enough that is just about the size of my Warmlight DAM. I think my Warmlight DAM with its blow up bag weighs 26 ounces. A home made DAM that size using my poly tube system and the weighs listed above would weigh about 22 ounces+. Being that close in weight I would go with the Warmlight DAM as it is less trouble. The Warmlight DAM has 9 ounces of Down in it and has a real high R rating.

I would bite the bullet on the weight and hope to save weight someplace else to make up for it.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 12:45:56 MDT Print View

Given the following list what do you think the low temperature all this worn at the same time might be good for?

Then if I substituted a Warmlight DAM for the trimmed GG NightLight Pad how much lower do you think I could go?

• Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Pullover (9 oz)
• Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Pants (7 oz)
• Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Balaclava (prototype, 2 oz)
• Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Quilt (prototype, 18 oz)
• Bozeman Mountain Works Nano Bivy (3.5 oz)
• Gossamer Gear NightLight Pad (Trimmed to 3 oz)

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 13:05:37 MDT Print View

Bill-I need the approximate loft and insulation type for each item, plus whether you sleep on your back, side, or stomach primarily. If you get this information to me today I will give you a response today. Otherwise I won't be able to get back to you until I return from a 3 day backpack trip which I start in the morning.

Edited by richard295 on 10/26/2006 13:22:08 MDT.

Sam Haraldson
(sharalds) - MLife

Locale: Gallatin Range
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 13:24:59 MDT Print View

> Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Quilt (prototype, 18 oz)

Oooh. Sounds yummy!

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 13:31:00 MDT Print View


I am not sure this will help you but:
1. Assume all insulation is Polarguard Delta at 2.2 oz per sq yard.
2. Assume the liner and shell material is Pertex Quantum.
3. Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Quilt (prototype, 18 oz). My guess is about 14 ounces of Polarguard Delta at 2.2 ounces per sq yard with a Pertex Quantum shell and liner. The Quilt is made like a TOP quilt and may be as much as three layers thick.
4. Bivy - Pertex Quantum Shell - Cuben Bottom. (3.0 oz)
5. Gossamer Gear NightLight Pad (18" x 29" x 3/4" - R-2.27)
6.Warmlight DAM - R-9

I sleep on my back most of the time.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/26/2006 13:34:15 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 13:44:08 MDT Print View

This might be better.

1. Cocoon jacket and pants while laying on my back:
====== = this is one layer and the top layer of PG - D at 2.2 oz per sq yard.
---------- - This is one layer and the bottom layer as I lay on it

This may be three layers of PG-D at 2.2 oz per sq yard and as a quilt

3. Gossamer Gear NightLight Pad (18" x 29" x 3/4" - R-2.27)

4.Warmlight DAM - R-9

Edited by bfornshell on 10/26/2006 13:46:03 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 14:17:30 MDT Print View

Bill-I don't have a loft number for PG Delta 2.2 oz. I do have info for PG Delta 2.7 oz at .6". If this is not what you meant, then please provide me the loft for 2.2 oz insulation batt.

Edited by richard295 on 10/26/2006 14:19:45 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 14:28:36 MDT Print View

Use your 2.7oz number that should give me enough information at this point.


Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 16:04:31 MDT Print View

Bill-I assumed all insulation batts were 2.7 oz/yd2 PG delta. The first scenario, using the Gossamer Gear NightLight pad, will yield an EN 13537 Lower Comfort temp of 27F. The second scenario, using the Warmlight DAM, will yield an EN 13537 Lower Comfort temp of -1 F.

In summary, for both scenarios the top of your body (65%) is insulated by 5.10 clo. This is comprised of .33 clo for the bivy air gap, 3.58 clo for the three layer quilt, and 1.19 clo for the uncompressed clothing insulation.

For scenario one, using the Nightlight pad, the bottom of your body (35%) is insulated by 1.03 clo. This is comprised of .13 clo for the compressed Cocoon clothing, and .919 clo for the NightLight Pad.

For scenario two, using the DAM, the bottom of your body (35%) is insulated by 3.72 clo. This is comprised of .13 clo for the compressed Cocoon clothing, and 3.59 clo for the DAM.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 16:58:53 MDT Print View


Thanks a lot for working out the numbers for me.

To keep things simple I will plan on the Warmlight DAM below freezing (32 degrees F) and the lighter pad above 32 degrees (F).

With the new "Profile" feature I maybe able to go
back and copy all your old "replys" about this type of question and see if I can teach myself how to do this.

Enjoy your hike.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/26/2006 17:12:33 MDT.

(jhaura) - F

Locale: Trail
Re: Wearable Sleep Gear on 10/27/2006 08:09:28 MDT Print View

Bill, hey there. If I correctly understand this thread so far on the topic of insulation (from Richards points and your posts), the gist is that you are thinking about a three layer insulation system:

(1) base layer (wool 2)

(2) med-high activity wearable synthetic loft layer

(3) zero-low activity coverup synthetic loft layer

Would you say this is an accurate summary?

One point you mentioned was to make the bottom half of layer (2) a pair of pants that could convert into a foot box type sleeping bag. Also you mentioned keeping it simple.

If I understand layer three correct, it seems that maybe a simple approach would be to just keep layer (2) bottoms as regular pants and extend your toe cozies into a more full coverage hot sox type item. This might result in lower overall weight and would elimate the engineering of an expandable pant bottom. As layer (3) will cover both torso, legs and feet, it would not seem to make any difference as to the configuration of the layer (2) insulation underneath, except for the mitten effect would be less since the feet would be somewhat separated by the sox.

This gives you a pair of camp booties, regular simple insulated pants and the same overall warmth if I am not mistaken. I'm sure someone will quickly set me straight if I am though...

Edited by jhaura on 10/27/2006 08:12:08 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Wearable Sleep Gear on 10/27/2006 11:52:02 MDT Print View


You are mostly correct.

I want a multi-layering system that when necessary and all worn together will keep me warm sleeping "over-night" to a low of at least "O" degrees F.

I want each layer to be as light as I can buy or make. The insulating layers I make will use Polarguard Delta and if I don't use light silk for the shell and liner material I will use Pertex Quantum.

The first layer or base layer may or may not be the #2 wool product from Patagonia. I found out when hiking in the White Mountains of NH during the winter and trying to wear Patagonia Capilene Silk weight top and bottoms, that the bottoms had to go. My legs just got to warm when moving. I also think from wearing #2 wool and Capilene, that the Capilene seems to block air better than the wool does. I believe that the #2 wool bottoms will be to warm to wear when moving. I have a lot of questions and not many answers yet.

I also want all my pants and upper body garments to have a side zipper or pit zips or some way to vent heat when necessary, if possible. The stock BMW Cocoon pants and Jacket I have do not "come with" a side zipper or pit zips vs the Mont-Bell Thermawrap pants with side zips that I also have. Pit zips are a little harder for me to have added or do myself.

As for the Pants/Sleeping Bag idea that is still being worked out and not a "for sure" item yet. It seems like a good idea but needs testing. You have some good ideas and I may try some of them during the testing phase.

The number of three layers may be four layers. I need to do some testing to decide what number gives me the most flexibility in the temperature range I expect. Starting at Springer Mountain in January and going north I could see a constant changing temperature/weather situation.

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/27/2006 19:14:39 MDT Print View

Bill: On Thursday morning I sent a package winging your way via priority mail. The original suspenders were cut away long ago, replaced with a single piece of webbing. I was suprised to see that the bag mode is wider and shorter than I remember, and that there are some significant gaps here and there. Oh well, the Wright plane wasn't a 747 either.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/27/2006 20:03:50 MDT Print View

Thanks Robert.
I am anxious to see just what they look like and how they were made.

It will be interesting to see if I can come up with a modern version. I will post some pictures of the stock item when I get them. I expect a few others may be interested in what they look like.

Priority Mail is quick some time so I would expect to see them early next week. With a good tail wind maybe on Saturday.

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/27/2006 22:00:35 MDT Print View

From an alcohol-ravaged brain: The Nunatak Skaha Plus Vest is a hooded, ultralight (under 6 oz total weight size medium), fully baffled zip neck vest filled with 800+ high loft goose down. It (or a homemade version) might go well with a bib-style insulated pant. This combo leaves out the arms, but bike shops sell removeable arm warmers.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Robert: The Package Arrived on 10/28/2006 14:26:02 MDT Print View

I have been looking at the Nunatak web site a lot. I saw the hooded vest. I have a pattern for a hooded vest but it is waiting its turn on the "to do" list. The first one I make will use Polarguard Delta. I have a Down hood that I made a couple years ago to wear if I need it. It goes with my Hammock "0" degree sleep system.

The best news is that your "Package Arrived" and "it" is here.

Thank you very much.

I just got your package. Sometimes the US Postal System even surprises me.

I just took "it" out of the box and as soon as I understands how it works I will take some pictures of "it".

"it" came at a good time. I just dyed 25 yards of silk.

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/28/2006 17:36:05 MDT Print View

Bill: I love your wording: it's so mysterious, everyone will think "it" is at least immoral, if not illegal. My life should be so exciting. Good luck.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Old REI Pants - Half-Bag Combo on 10/28/2006 18:56:46 MDT Print View

Old REI Pants - Half-Bag Combo

This is "it". An older (?) model REI (Down) Pants / Half-Bag Combo that Robert sent me. It weighs 30.86 ounces and the tag says the Shell material is 100% Nylon. The name tag inside it says REI CO-OP and the snaps even say REI CO-OP on them.

The design as you will see from the pictures is sort of simple. The one I have is a size large and is about 50" long. When worn as a pair of pants it comes up above my waist and to within 8" of my arm pits. It has two heavy YXX zippers. I think the zippers are heavier than a #5. When wearing "it" as pants or laying in "it" as a half-bag I get warm real fast.

To make something like this as a MYOG project my first estimate using Pertex Quantum for both the liner and shell and one layer of Polarguard - Delta insulation and a set of lighter zippers would be a weight of something less than 9 ounces. I might be able to down-size the large to a size medium and bring the weight down a little.

I will start work on a pattern Sunday. I will make a prototype to test the pattern and see if it works like I want it to.

Set-up to use as a half-bag:

Me sitting in "it":

The change over from bag to pants:

Me wearing "it" as a pair of Down pants:

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 11/01/2006 21:36:55 MST Print View

Bill: Glad to see your message on another web site! Now get back to work entertaining us with your great designs!

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Answers and Questions for Richard on 11/04/2006 21:31:10 MST Print View

Answers and Questions for Richard

A couple months ago you stated and / or asked the following:

Richard stated:
"Now for the controversial part <grin>.

Insulation clo/oz % loft when wet

Polarguard Delta .68 -40
Primaloft Sport .74 -11
Climashield XP .77 -??
Primaloft One .84 -00

500 fill down 4.5 -60
800 fill down 2.5 -60

1. Q - Would you investigate a DIY source for Primaloft One? It would be the optimal solution for wet environments. Brian’s counterpart for Primaloft is Arnie Liati in the Primaloft Issaquah, WA office.

1. A - I could not find anyone that was retailing PL-One. I decided to call PrimaLoft and see what it takes to buy direct from them. I finally found a little time to call and ask. I filled out a form for them and asked about getting a sample of PL - One 1.8 ounce a sq yard insulation. I have had a 5 yard sample request approved and they assigned a Sale Rep to me. The sample will be shipped Monday next week. I asked about buying some and was given a price for one roll. I will wait till I can make a few things with the sample and test them before I decide if I want to buy a roll. The sample will be enough to make several items to test / compare with the other insulation I have. I will make a Quilt / Liner for my Bivy with some of the PL-1, 1.8 oz a sq yard material so I can do a direct comparison with my other Quilts / Liners. I talked to my Sales Rep Friday late and asked for samples of several other interesting PrimaLoft products and will find out about them next week. I also suggested he look at this site and he logged onto it as we spoke. He and his wife are "Trail Runners" and he is interested in lighter gear. They are doing a race someplace next year.

One problem (maybe) working with Primaloft One will be the need to stabilize the insulation in a different manner than I have had to with the Polarguard Delta and the Climashield Combat. I will have to sew the Primaloft One in 6" squares or do the button/tuck quilting trick. I will sew or whatever the PrimaLoft One between two layers of my light silk to save weight and save my good material. Since I am making my quilts to go inside my Bivy and the Bivy shell is Pertex Quantum I think this technique will workout OK.

I did a little math and I should be able to make a PrimaLoft One quilt the same size as my other two at about or a little less weight. If the sample is at or near the 1.8 ounce a square yard range the higher clo of the PrimaLoft One should keep all the quilts at about the same low temperature range.

2. Q - Would you let us know what quilt weight you could achieve using 800 fill down for your quilt? It is available from multiple sources and has a much better clo/oz value for dry environments.

2. A - I did a little math to see what the answer to this might be but I need to work on it a little more. I need to figure out the sewing for sewn baffles. The way I have worked with Down in the past was with a removable baffle or side-in silk tube of Down. Doing it that way let me use the Down Tubes for other things but did add a little weight. I need to practice making the baffles a different way and when I work that out I can then weigh the material and add the Down weight for a "best guess" answer. It would seem that the Down Quilt / Liner has to be lighter by a bit. The difference might be an ounce or so over the current Quilts / Liners that weigh 6.5 to 7.5 ounces. The total weight for a Down Quilt same size, same Temp range (40 degrees F) might be as low as 6 ounces using my light silk as the shell and liner material.

3. Q - My experience with synthetic bags is that I get about a 40% reduction in loft after one season’s use and then they stabilize at that loft. The temperature rating drops and stabilizes accordingly. I haven’t experienced more than 10% degradation in my down bags after multiple years of use. No one on the BPL forums has ever compared the loft degradation history between various synthetics. Would you monitor the loft degradation with your quilt experiments?

3. A - I don't know how I will do this but I will try an watch what happens over time.

4. Q - From your conversations with the Polarguard folks do you know what the Climashield XP loft reduction is when wet?

4. A - The next time I have a chance to talk to someone like Brian I will ask about this and see what they say.

I have also updated my gear list which is on the first post of this thread.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/04/2006 23:15:15 MST.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Answers and Questions for Richard on 11/04/2006 22:36:59 MST Print View

Bill-Thank you for the status update. I will be closely monitoring your "tell it like it is" test reports.

It will be very interesting to see if the theory matches the real world.

(jhaura) - F

Locale: Trail
Re: Wearable Quilts on 11/04/2006 22:53:05 MST Print View

Bill, hey there. The list is looking good. Lot's o' cuben!

I just ordered 6 yards of Climashield XP and 10 yards of 4.5mm silk for a couple quilts.

We've spoken about a system of top and bottom insulation that can be worn, and you have made the tunic.

I was brainstorming on ways to "wear" two quilts in such a way as to cover top and bottom without making slits or using zippers.

My patience is short lived on complex patterns and gear, so I was thinking of how to make it a dead simple wrap.

I'm relaying this to you before I have done any real work on the idea because I know your tinkering with those REI pants and other stuff and it might fuel another direction, or at least you may have some input for me as I get going on it.

There are two main configurations I have been thinking about:

1. Two single layer quilts in similar dimensions to your tunic. In "sleep mode" they are layered on top of you as needed, one or two. This is what you are doing now with the tunic and liner.

In "clothing mode" one quilt is draped with the top (wide part) on your back at shoulders. The other, the same but on chest. They are attached at sides of neck via a button or snap. At this point you are wearing both quilts vertically, with the foot area overflowing on the floor at front and rear of your feet. The quilts are suspended on your shoulders.

I was thinking if you attach the two quilts via a shockcord belt or two buttons at the waist, you could then take the rear quilt below the waist and wrap it around one leg all the way down to the ankles and attach it with buttons/snaps in a couple places. After doing the same with the other leg using the front quilt, the torso and legs would be fully covered. The shockcord belt or buttons at the waist should keep both quilts centered covering your bum and privates, while the lower part of each quilt angles off to each leg.

No slits, no zippers. Full coverage except arms and feet in clothing mode. One or two layer quilt in sleep mode.

Drawback: limited bending over ability. Quilts may bind at waist, like coveralls. Maybe not.

2. Four half quilts. All separate pieces.

Make two top halves of a quilt one with a drop tail (like on a shirt). Wear in same fashion as above with drop tail piece in rear. This covers your top like your tunic.

Make two bottom halves of a quilt. Wear like highwaisted skirt with halves flipped upside down so narrow lower leg dimension is at waist and wider hip dimension is at ankles. Giving a wider bottom for leg stride. The two bottom halves could attach via two buttons or shockcord at the belly/solar plexus, and a couple buttons down the sides to enclose it. Much better movement and flexibility than the first method.

In sleep mode button/snap a top piece to a bottom piece (bottom piece flipped around now with hip dimension at hips) for a single layer quilt. Using existing snaps/buttons form footbox. For the two halves point of attachment should overlap a bit so there is not a cold spot at the union of the two pieces. Do same with two remaining pieces if a second layer is needed. You know have a single or double layer quilt. And an enclosed footbox.

I like this method the best for flexibility and ease of skirt mode instead of wrapping each leg.

No expensive insulated garments to buy, and less gear to pack.

I know this may be hard to follow without graphics/pictures, but I thought I would throw it out there until I piece together same samples.

Edited by jhaura on 11/04/2006 23:07:17 MST.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Wearable Quilts on 11/05/2006 00:02:02 MST Print View

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, lots of Cuben. Go Cuben - Defy Gravity. I am waiting for them to bring their WPB version to market. I was told that their test runs came out about .7 ounce per sq yard.

I am trying to make my wear/sleep system without having to sew zippers. I will try and use buttons and fasteners of some type if possible. I have a bunch of zippers and will use them if all else fails or gets to busy. I may try to color code my buttons for ease of assembly or to change the set-up.

I have the answer to the lightest - temperature controllable - WPB - and everything else we want in our gear but need some seed money to develop it - like Bill Gates and a couple billion dollars.

My list of projects "started" keeps getting longer as I keep finding new materials to play with. A few of them are waiting on stuff that is "in the mail".

I am sure we will come up with something "Wearable Quilts ETC" that will work. How well it works, well, time will answer that question.

You should like the Climashield XP. I have some and will use it for a vest soon. Are you going to dye the silk? Rite dye works OK on silk.

I follow most of what you are talking about. Think about a one layer WPB cover shell of some sort to help keep everything dry if it rains on you.

Frank Deland

Locale: On the AT in VA
gear on 11/16/2006 09:17:50 MST Print View

Wow a lot of good planning discussed here. One note: If you are using a floorless tarp, I think your ground cover is important when sleeping on snow. Heat from your body will go down into the snow causing it to melt. Whatever the bottom layer is it often gets wet. It won't matter much if it is your ground cover. Even with a pad the snow tends to conform to the shape of your body. Then it will freeze up, so that when you change positions, you will be sleeping on lumps previously formed by your body. That is why it is a good idea to stomp the snow down making it as level as possible before you lie down. The bivy should add some warmth even if your inside a shelter, but I think it would be an important safety back-up in case you could not get to a shelter.
Maybe this is what Robert had in mind:
Jacks R Better "Snivieller"

Edited by rambler on 11/16/2006 09:22:46 MST.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: gear on 11/16/2006 11:13:59 MST Print View

Sometimes on the primarily leeward side of some conifers, close to them, the ground will not be snow covered. Under them can be problematic though, particularly white pine when laden with heavy wet snow which we often get in the northeast (don't know about snow out west) and the wind kicks up during the night; result = a "widow-maker" (i.e., a branch) lands right on top of you. I see them fallen 'bout every two or three years off the white pines around my property when i look out the morning after a windy wet snowfall.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Food and Related Items for the Hike: on 11/18/2006 18:53:08 MST Print View

Food and Related Items for the Hike:

This post is related to the thread

Since all my food has to be liquid, well I can eat a few soft things if I am careful, I have an interest in higher mileage between resupply stops. I can't just walk into many stores and buy Dry Ensure. To do an AT Thru-Hike or a very long hike of any kind I had planned to do a lot of mail drops. In the early planning I thought about just doing my resupply when I walked through a place with a Post Office or a store that would hold a food drop for hikers. The idea of going into town after town has very little interest to me as I can't eat the kind of food I would find there.

This idea of only a few resupply stops wither it is 3 or 5 or 10 plays into my food needs. I am sure I can not nor would not try a 3 resupply AT Thru-Hike this time. I might think about 5 resupply stops. That would give me a average food weight at the start of each of the sections of about 33 pounds. I was surprised at the large volume the food was going to take up in my pack. My Dry Ensure packs a lot of calories in a small package. A one serving amount of 282.5 calories (2.29 ounces) will pack into a coffee filter and be about 2" square for planning. The zip lock bag in the picture is 10 servings or food for one day (2825 calories). I am using Hammer Perpetuem in all my water and that will add about 520 more calories a day for a total of about 3345 calories a day.

Nutritional information for Dry Ensure:

Nutritional information for Hammer Perpetuem:

Multi-Use in action:

On the second half of my hike in Georgia last month I started packing my Dry Ensure in a large paper coffee filter. It made my every 90 minute food stops go much faster. The paper coffee filters also turned out to make great TP. That saved a little weight and gave me a way to recycle the empty paper filters. The paper burns nice if I need something to start a fire with.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Gear on 11/19/2006 22:44:19 MST Print View

Hey Bill,
The coffee filters are a great idea.

As far as the bag for the Perpetuem goes, I find it easier to put it in the smaller zipp lock bags so I can just grab a new one and put it in my outside pack pocket.
I also made a scoop that is longer and narrower to fit inside the top of a water bottle. The scoop is made so 1 scoop equals the amount you will need for the size water bottle you are carrying.

I also designed my pack to fit perfectly in the small of my back. I put all of my food in a large (12.5 X 20) OP Sac and wrap it with my thinlite pad to keep it in place.
This way I can put 3/4 of my pack weight right next to my body in the small of my back where it is the most comfortable to carry.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 11/19/2006 23:39:19 MST Print View

Thanks Aaron,

I also use a zip lock for my Hammer Perpetuem. I have a small scoop that came with an instant coffee mix. Hammer Perpetuem is some good stuff. Even my Doctor thought it was a good idea to use it along with my Dry Ensure when hiking.

On anything but a short hike I use a home made external frame pack. I like a little air between me and my pack bag.

Isn't great that when we can make some or most of our own gear. We can have it just like we want it.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 11/21/2006 23:46:46 MST Print View

Ah yes, making your own gear does have its advantages.
The problem with most of the stuff I make is the (when you get it right).
Sometimes, even the 3rd time isn't a charm.
I am going to start digging in to making some cuben stuff soon. I just don't know what to make. I am just not all that happy with my fully enclosed tarp designs, (finicky).

I am glad you like the Perpetium.
There is one thing you need to know about it. It ages fast.
Once mixed, you need to drink it in about 4-8 hours. The hotter the faster.
Very bad if you wake up with leftovers. Smells to high hell.

Edited by awsorensen on 11/21/2006 23:51:14 MST.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 11/22/2006 00:07:26 MST Print View


When making anything for the first time I always make a couple of the "what ever" out of Wal Mart $1 a yard stuff. Then when it is like I want it I use my good stuff.

I am making a new Cuben Tarp for my hike in January. It will be something like 9 or 10 feet long and about 7 to 8 feet wide. Simple design and large enough to cover me and my stuff in rain/snow or what ever I have to deal with. If the weather is really bad I can sleep in a shelter.

The guy at the store where I first bought my Hammer Perpetium told me not to mix to much at one time. I use a 20 ounce Gatorade bottle to drink from while hiking so it doesn't last more than a few hours.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 11/22/2006 05:48:12 MST Print View

Aaron, a suggestion (and this coming from someone who can't sew - so please take it with a grain of salt), if i were to attempt a DIY sewing project, any project, i would probably find a great product already out there (GG or BMW tarp, HS tarptent, etc), and copy it - and then, add any "tweaks" i think that i would need (e.g., attached bug netting to a GG SpinnShelter, etc.).

It would be nice if you could find an actual product and measure the dimensions to get it right. Lacking the ability to do that, it's amazing, i've read Posts where a person has actually contacted the owner of some of these fine Cottage Industries and the owners actually "gave away the store", so to speak, and told the person the acutal dimensions of each panel and how to sew it. Go figure?!!! These exemplary human beings are NOT in it solely for personal profit. Their love of all things outdoors and willingness to help another succeed, at their own expense, so to speak, still takes precedence over accumulating personal wealth - a fine example to us all.

Just a thought.

(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Morality on 11/22/2006 13:10:43 MST Print View

PJ, there you go again. First you offer to help out a young man with a BPL membership, then you have the audacity to actually praise cottage industries that provide generous help to their customers. You are making me look bad in front of my children, and, oh yeah, the wifie, too. I teach my little ankle nippers to look out for the greatest number, which is Number One. Both your actions and your pronouncements are UNDERMINING THE EDUCATION OF MY CHILDREN!

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Morality on 11/23/2006 00:04:21 MST Print View

Thanks for the knowledge.
I'll stop being a Troll on Bills gear list after this post, (unless it's about his gear list).

The problem with copying or changing a manufactured design is I haven't found a 10 ounce fully enclosed tarptent out there using 1.3 ounce silnylon, The pack; would be nice to copy a
1400-1600ci pack strong enough for heavy abuse and hard running with very good padding at a 6.5 ounce weight.
I would rather make a product I can use the first time. after spending all the time designing it, I wouldn't know what changes to make in order to make it work correctly any way. If I did, I would have made it that way in the 1st place. Besides $5 a yard for fabric isn't that much at all considering the time you put into it. Might as well use it.
If I really don't like it, it get sabotaged for something else, which is even a better reason to use the good fabric.

Being innovative is half the fun for me. I always wanted to be an inventor.

Any way, I'm sure this is half the reason Bill makes his own gear as well.

My logic behind going UL is to go as lite as possible while still being satisfied with your gear. I realy don't want to spend $15 a yard on Cuben until I know that piece of gear is exactly what I want.
Being cold or uncomfortable is definitely not satisfying.

Edited by awsorensen on 11/23/2006 09:53:32 MST.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Re: Morality on 11/23/2006 06:01:21 MST Print View

Good plan Aaron. I now understand your motivations which are very commendable ones. I'm sure you will come up with workable designs that meet your needs and expectations. Sorry that i projected my fabrication inadequacies and lack of personal cleverness on you. I believe that you are well ahead of me in both categories. take care, pj

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Food for Half the Hike on 12/14/2006 14:05:22 MST Print View

This stack of Dry Ensure should be about half of the necessary Dry Ensure I will need for my hike.

This stack is 150 cans at 1750 calories each can and when repacked into zip locks will weigh 14 ounces per can.

262,500 calories - 2100 ounces - 131 pounds 3 ounces - 125 calories per ounce.

Sam Haraldson
(sharalds) - MLife

Locale: Gallatin Range
Food for Half the Hike on 12/14/2006 14:51:13 MST Print View


That is one great big stack of BOREDOM right there. How ever do you cope?

- Sam

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Food for Half the Hike on 12/14/2006 15:56:16 MST Print View

You have to realize that the liquid version of this and a couple other brands of liquid is what I have had to eat 99.99% since 7 Jun 2005. At least I can now drink it. At first I was on a feeding tube.

When I add a little Chocolate flavored Carnation Breakfast Drink the stuff tastes a lot like a chocolate milk shake. Really not to bad, right.

All I can say is it gives me the right mix of all the vitamins and other nutritional stuff I need each day. On the hike I will add some Hammer Perpetuem to all the water I drink.

Sam Haraldson
(sharalds) - MLife

Locale: Gallatin Range
Food for Half the Hike on 12/14/2006 16:29:34 MST Print View

> ...what I have had to eat 99.99% since 7 Jun 2005.

That's what I was talking about, Bill. Day in and day out. You must be a machine. It seems like its going to pay off in your ability to hike with this food though. Most people except for the most dedicated individuals (read: Flyin' Brian, Squeaky, Skurka, Dial, et al) would not be able to subsit on such a boring diet.

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 12/14/2006 20:54:02 MST Print View

The operative words here are "I HAVE HAD TO EAT". Apparently, Bill doesn't have a choice, unless of course he wants to starve to death.

Catch a clue, folks. This isn't being put forward as the latest and greatest innovation in UL hiking.

A purely liquid diet is not what our digestive tract was designed to utilize. If I tried that, I'd need to calculate my ADMPTPR (Average Daily Miles Per Toilet Paper Roll or per square foot of shop towels).

I'd be willing to bet that Bill would just about kill for the ability to chew into that thick juicy steak most of us jump on when we reach a trail town.

You have my respect, Bill, for even trying to go trekking, let alone accomplishing it.

Edited by wandering_bob on 12/14/2006 20:55:13 MST.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 12/14/2006 22:39:09 MST Print View


Thanks for the comments.

My current condition and I use that term because it will get a little better.

Because of where my throat cancer was located, it was necessary to pull all my lower teeth. That was a sad day and they pulled 11 teeth in 30 minutes. That was 28 Oct 2004. My last real meal was 27 Oct 2004. It was necessary to pull the teeth because the radiation treatments would have killed the teeth and then I would have had two big problems. My lower teeth will be replaced and at first my dentist thought I might be able to have implants. As it turned out the radiation killed the cancer but it also caused some problems with my jaw bone and gums. I can not have implants. In the beginning I was told I would have to wait at least two years after the last radiation treatment for teeth of some type. It will become a denture and then I should not use it except to eat. Also hard to chew foods are out since I can still damage my gums and jaw bone. I saw my Dental Surgeon yesterday. He took a new x-ray and said everything is looking so good that he thought that by April I could see the dentist that will make my denture.

During this 2 year time I have not been allowed to try and gum my food as that might cause more damage. I can't chew anything as I have no teeth. My saliva glands also were fried and they are gone. It is hard to eat real food without saliva. I can drink a lot of water and I will see how that works out.

In the beginning of my treatment I lost a lot of weight and after some surgery I could not swallow anything. I ended up using my feeding tube to and did gain a little weight. I asked for something with more calories since what I was using was not working very fast. I have a great dietitian and she got me a liquid with more calories per 8 fl ounces. I tried to drink this and discovered that Carnation Breakfast drink mix turned the liquid into something I could drink. My weight shot up. I went from 137 to 161 and asked for the feeding tube to be removed. It is gone. I can maintain my weight where I want it and I was able to go on my first hike this past Oct.

I can't say I was happy drinking this stuff but I had to do something to get my weight back up or I would never get back in the woods.

For anyone that may need to go to a liquid diet at some point in their life let me answer the question this comment implies:

"Bob said: - A purely liquid diet is not what our digestive tract was designed to utilize. If I tried that, I'd need to calculate my ADMPTPR (Average Daily Miles Per Toilet Paper Roll or per square foot of shop towels)."

"Bob" I have no digestive tract problems, zero. To be as clear as possible that means NO diarrhea. My BM's are normal just not as much as if I was eating real food. Friends always get around to asking this same question. I also would not kill for the ability to "chew into that thick juicy steak in a trail town" or even a hamburger, but it will be nice.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 12/14/2006 22:50:10 MST Print View

Bill, you are an inspiring man.

The magnitude of your hike didn't hit me in spite of the cuben fiber gear photos, until I saw the stack of powder...

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 12/14/2006 23:46:00 MST Print View

Thanks Ryan, You have inspired me over the years.

I still have the "Premium Member News" email dated 8/9/03 [Pertex Quantum is coming! And More...] This was when you first announced the Cocoon line and lots of other things.

Christopher Plesko
(Pivvay) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 12/15/2006 07:11:19 MST Print View


I know others have said it but you're an inspiration to me too. I drink Ensure on many endurance rides and races because it's compact and easy to get down with some extra liquid already included (vs a gel). But for every meal! Thank you also for posting the story above. I was always curious but did not wish to pry.

Edited by Pivvay on 12/15/2006 07:12:09 MST.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 12/15/2006 10:15:28 MST Print View

Thanks for your nice comments.

I have been "blessed" with a good recovery from my episode with cancer and for my friends that are not comfortable with the term "blessed" I use "lucky".

I also think it is important to be very open about all of the story. There can be a life after cancer and I want people to know that. It may not be the same life you had before but it is still Life.

I told my Doctors that if they can kill the cancer I will figure out how to deal with what is left of me. Having my 11 bottom teeth pulled after trying hard to take care of them all those years was really hard. But the possibility of losing my lower jaw bone and the effects of that made having my teeth pulled a no-brainer. Was I happy about it - He_ _ no.

As I once wrote to JP, I maybe old but I am not foolish.

Christopher Plesko
(Pivvay) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 12/15/2006 11:28:40 MST Print View


That is a great attitude, one we can all aspire to be strong enough to have. My father is also a cancer survivor (pancreas). He is now diabetic since he has no pancreas at all. It is difficult for him to be an athlete (triathlon) again even with a pump and he feels similar to you do "teeth you took care of for all those years". He took care of his body, did not smoke, drink or be overweight and yet now he has to be a diabetic. I, however, am greatful that he is alive and still here to talk with me and guide me when I need it. And that when we see each other we can still ride our bikes and swim and run together with only a few minor stops to check blood sugar levels or eat more.

Thanks again for contributing the story.

Phil Barton
(flyfast) - MLife

Locale: Oklahoma
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 12/16/2006 19:39:58 MST Print View

Bill, your creativity is amazing. I have used your designs as examples of creative thought many times over the last couple of years.

I am glad that you are headed for the AT. Your story is an inspiration. Thank you for sharing. We do not get to select the events that impact our life. You have chosen to maintain an incredible attitude.

I look forward to hearing about your hike.

b d
(bdavis) - F

Locale: Mt. Lassen - Shasta, N. Cal.
Re: Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 12/16/2006 19:51:34 MST Print View


You have inspired me to go that extra gram, ounce, and mile or hardship in my thinking. So much thanks.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
RBH VaprThrm NTS-Shirt&Pants on 01/23/2007 15:01:09 MST Print View

Adding the RBH Designs VaprThrm NTS Shirt and VaprThrm Pants to my gear list.

I first learned about RBH Designs when BMW offered for sale the "FeatherLite Vapor Mitts". RBH Designs made the Mitts for BMW. I looked at their web site and ordered a pair of their VaprThrm Insulated Socks. At the time they were working out ideas for a shirt and pants. RBH VB items came back up when Ryan J was planning the SUL Winter Challenge. The weather wasn't cold enough and Ryan's hike was cut short. I sort of forgot about the Shirt and Pants till I read that Andrew had one of their shirts. I called RBH and ordered a NTS Shirt with the optional sleeve zippers and a pair of their NTS Pants. I can wear a medium shirt if I can get them made with a long arm sleeve length and sent my sleeve length to them. I also sent them a foot pattern for another pair of their VaprThrm Insulated Socks.

Last Saturday I received my new VaprThrm NTS Shirt, VaprThrm Pants and a new pair of their VaprThrm Insulated Socks. Everything fit great. Over the last couple of days I have had a chance to wear the VB shirt and pants.

Everything looks very well made.  If someone had been watching me as I was examining the shirt and pants they would have had a good laugh. I was looking at how everything was sewn together. The material also is interesting. 
Weight of things:
Socks - 4.11 ounces - size 9.5

Shirt - 12.8 ounces - size M - The shirt can vent with the front zipper, the two pocket zippers and the optional sleeve zippers. The pockets are made out of some type of mesh. You can see the large mesh panel on one of the pictures of the inside of the shirt.

This picture shows what the inside material really looks like. The flash on my camera washed out the color on the other pictures.

Pants - 13.7 ounces - size M - The pants have a 16" side zipper that starts near the waist and goes toward the knee.

None of that weight matters as long as they are on my
back.  While hiking I will wear them day and night till I find the point where the temperature / heat / sweat is to much to control by what I wear or by venting.

First test:
Saturday 20 January 2007 - 40 degrees "F" with a light rain. I was wearing nothing under the NTS Shirt and only a pair of briefs under the NTS Pants. At first I was just a little cool.  That is really how I like it.  At about the 30 minute mark I was just right.  No venting yet.  I stayed at the "just right" feeling till I got back home.  When I took off the shirt and pants I had a slight damp feeling across the back of my shoulders but no moisture.

Second Test:
21 January - Sunday Night.
I wore the shirt (nothing under it again) and pants (only briefs again) late this afternoon. It was 56 out. I started with all vent zips open and the shirt front main zip about 1/3 of the way down.  By the time I got about half way down the hill on my street I had pulled the zips on the pants closed about 75% of the way.  Zipped the jacket up till it was about 85% closed.  Arm zips were left opened and sleeve opening was left open all the way.  I left everything like that till I was almost home when I unzipped the jacket a little along with the leg zips.  I wasn't warm but was just trying to cool a little before I got home.  Again the only slightly damp area was across my shoulders. I have a really light weight sleeveless running top made out of a very breathable material.  I will wear it under the shirt tomorrow and see how that works.  It should let me unzip the shirt more or maybe even all the way without a chill on my bare chest. On my hike I will carry my #2 wool zip hoody and #2 wool bottoms if it gets to cold for just the NTS Shirt and Pants. I will have warmer items to put on when I stop moving and when I am in camp.

The initial results of wearing the RBH VB shirt and pants are one of the big reasons I am re-thinking my winter gear list.

I believe the VB NTS Shirt and NTS Pants can be worn to a much higher temperature than most have thought in the past. My goal is to find out if this is possible and what MY high temperature range will be. It may not be for everyone but will be for those that are really in-tune with what their body is doing.

I will continue to test this gear until I leave for my hike. While hiking I will have a chance to find out for sure if I am right or wrong.

Edited by bfornshell on 01/23/2007 15:11:39 MST.

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
Vapor Barrier Clothing on 01/23/2007 15:40:10 MST Print View

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the information and intial review of the RBH Vapor Barrier Clothing. Please keep us posted on your assessment and if you feel that the additional features and added weight of the clothing are worthwhile compared to something like the Stephenson's Warmlite Vapor Barrier clothing. My Warmlite Vapor Barrier clothing with the fuzzy stuff weighs: 2.6 oz for small socks, 5.4 oz for large top, and 4.4 oz for medium bottoms.


David Wills
(willspower3) - F
Re: RBH VaprThrm NTS-Shirt&Pants on 01/23/2007 22:25:35 MST Print View

"None of that weight matters as long as they are on my

GASP!! Someone has hacked onto bill's name.

That fuzzy stuff seems pretty cool though. a bit pricey. I wonder if any comparable fuzzy VB fabrics are available from people with at least reasonable prices.

b d
(bdavis) - F

Locale: Mt. Lassen - Shasta, N. Cal.
Re: RBH VaprThrm NTS-Shirt&Pants on 01/23/2007 22:43:31 MST Print View

Bill F.,

Thanks for the insight on the RBH gear. If I read it right they are like a heavy duty windshirt type of product that might mean carrying the VaprTherms NTS and only one other base layer, like a merino wool or capilene long john and top? Is that right? bd

Edited by bdavis on 01/23/2007 22:44:12 MST.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
RBH VaprThrm NTS-Shirt&Pants on 01/23/2007 23:45:44 MST Print View


I have never seen the VB stuff that WarmLight sells. I have one of their DAM's and thought about buying a few yards of the "fuzzystuff" but never got around to it.


GASP!! Who has hacked onto my computer?

What I meant to say I think was that if I am wearing my VB stuff 24 hours a day it would not count with pack weight. It is really funny, almost as fast as I posted that entry I got an email from a friend in the UK about my comment. I should have changed it but thought I would see how long it took for someone else to "jump on me about it". Do you know that I lived in Dahlonega for 11 years (89 to 2000).


This is real high energy output - low temperature stuff. If you look on the RBH web site and read some of the "testimonials" most of the folks wearing these thing are into extreme cold weather activities. I am trying to see if there is any advantage for the average (light weight) winter hiker to use something like this.

I want to see if by wearing the NTS Shirt and Pants, more or less 24 hours a day, I can drop some weight on other items that I have to carry all day in my pack. Can I go with a lighter sleeping system, outer garments for camp wear in camp etc? That is what I want to find out.

The shirt and pants may seem heavy but if I would need to wear a base layer and something on top of that for normal cold weather hiking and I can get by with only the NTS Shirt and Pants when moving, then the weigh may even out or drop. Then I wear the NTS things to sleep in and that replaces something else and should let me carry a lighter sleep system. When I have to wear something with the VB things they would go over them not under.

I haven't left for Georgia yet as I am remaking some of my gear to work with what I think the NTS Shirt and Pants will allow me to do. I will start the AT in Georgia to see how things work in what I expect to be mild weather but then I may go North in search of snow and low temperatures.

Shawn Basil
(Bearpaw) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: RBH VaprThrm NTS-Shirt&Pants on 01/24/2007 06:52:31 MST Print View

"I will start the AT in Georgia to see how things work in what I expect to be mild weather."

Well, Bill, you may well be right about mild weather. My Smokies trip this Christmas was the warmest time there I can remember in quite a while. And here in Nashville, we teachers can't seem to catch a break!! Where did all our snow days go?! But of course, all bets are off once you actually get into the mountains.

Good luck with all your gear and your thru-hike. Please stay in touch when you can and let us know how every thing is going.

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
Warmlite Vapor Barrier Clothing on 01/24/2007 07:20:35 MST Print View


If you were referring to the cost of the Stephenson's Warmlite fuzzy stuff, I do not think it terribly expensive for a Vapor Barrier Shirt at $25 (S & M) or $30 (L & XL) and Vapor Barrier Pants at $39 (with a fly overlap). They are light and well made. But like other lightweight gear you do have to have some care in their usage.


Edited by naturephoto1 on 01/24/2007 11:43:08 MST.

Frank Deland

Locale: On the AT in VA
great plans on 01/24/2007 08:13:39 MST Print View

Great plans, Bill. I'll look forward to reading your book about your hike!
Random thoughts as I scan your list:
Hooded vest !! Great to sleep in.
Thin cap. long underwear to hike in, expedition weight for camp and pajama bottoms. Why the "tights"?
Insulated cahps and bottoms? Rainpants over expedition underwear should be warm enough.
Instead of a poncho with no sleeves, check out the packa. It is vented with underarm zippers, yet long enough to provide gread wind protection for warmth.
Hat: consider felt peruvian style with the ear flaps, even with the ties under the chin to keep the hat on while you sleep. Hats always slip off my head in the night and balacavas bug me!
Yes, sun glasses for snow glare!!
wear liner gloves all the time, day and night.
You do need water treatment. Filters are unreliable in freezing temps.
Use lithium batteries. Better in the cold.
Go with aluminum Kathoolas. You will be carrying them a lot, so keep it light!
Warmlite no-sweat sweatshirt is a great piece of gear. Wear it over a t-shirt, hike in 0 degree weather, no sweat!
Northern Lites are great, but the rubber strap kept slipping off the toe of the boot. Easy to replace with webbing. Check out some photos here: (Copy into your address bar)

Edited by rambler on 01/24/2007 08:20:26 MST.

David Wills
(willspower3) - F
Re: Warmlite Vapor Barrier Clothing on 01/24/2007 11:41:49 MST Print View

Oops. Poor memory on my part.

Dahlonega is a great place. I'm just over the mountain off HWY 60. It's great being so close to woody gap, springer mt, brasstown bald, and unicoi gap. If you don't mind, what took you away from there out to texas?

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
RBH VaprThrm NTS-Shirt&Pants on 01/24/2007 13:15:30 MST Print View


I ordered some "fuzzy stuff" this morning. If I have time I will make a VB shirt, pair of pants, socks and maybe a pair of mitt shells out of it and see how it works.


Thanks for the suggestions. If you notice on my gear list I use the (?) mark. That means I have not decided what or which item I will use.

I like what you did with your snow shoes. If I have time I am going to modify mine like you did. I also have another set of snow shoe crampons which I may swap with the ones that come with the Northern Lites.

The steel Kathoola crampons should hold their edge on the type of terrain I expect to be on better than the aluminum ones.

I am using MP1 tablets for my water treatment. I have had water filters freeze on me, but I am a fast learner on most things.

I have Lithium batteries for the lights that use them. I have just gotten an ARC (1) AAA battery light that I will add to my gear list. It is a great light at 0.9 ounces. It can use a Lithium battery.


I really liked the North Georgia area but after I retired from the Army in 93 I lost my Texas residency. I owned a home in San Antonio and had expected to move back when I retired. I liked the N GA Area and thought about staying but when I retired I was then subject to the Georgia tax structure and their State Personal Income Tax. I just put up with it for a few years then decide to move back to my home in SA. My plan was to stay about 5 years and then sell my house and move North. I would move up to TN, VA or NH which do not have a Personal State Income Tax. Number one state on my list was northern NH. I have been up there hiking in both summer and winter. I like a four-season area and its snow.

Cancer in 2004 changed my plans. I am so tuned into my medical support here that I do not think I will now move. I still have a number of medical follow-up exams and one of them is every three months forever, I should say till I die.

Any hiking I want to do now has to be planned around my follow-up exams. A straight thru AT Hike is not possible so I have to do it in segments with exams stops planned as necessary.

Gene .

Locale: New England
Re: RBH VaprThrm NTS-Shirt&Pants on 01/25/2007 14:44:07 MST Print View

Bill, That still beats doing no hike *GRIN*

By the time you get up here to New England you'll be fit enough to go off trail and look for a local treatment program! Bill, the State of New Hampshire REALLY needs YOU in residency! All of us up here in the New England states are hoping you become a 'free agent' during your AT hike Bill so you can move up here!

If not maybe I can get another good truck deal over at Grande Ford *Grin*. It's actually colder in Texas than in NJ Bill! They gotta' have a state of the art doohickey up here somewhere for you....

Besides, I'd rather drive the boxes over to visit with you , than FedEx 'em!