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Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/20/2006 10:24:29 MDT Print View

Last Up-Date: 9 January 2007

MYOG - AT- Gear List for a January 2007 AT Start

Part One -
January Start - AT Thru-Hike 2007 Gear List:
Springer Mountain to Harpers Ferry

I have my first 2 hikes (short but not easy this past October in Georgia)) under my belt since my cancer treatment has been over and now I am ready to plan a longer hike.

I want to try and complete an AT Thur-Hike during 2007. Because of numerous follow-up exams from my cancer treatment program I will need to hike in segments of 60 to 75 days.

My challenge then will be to develop a series of Super Ultra Light (SUL) Gear Lists that will run through the four seasons I expect I will see during my 2007 AT Hike.

The first gear list will be a Winter list that would take me from Springer Mountain Georgia in mid January to Harpers Ferry (1008 miles) by the end of April. I am going to design a gear list that is very light but at this time I have no idea how light. Staying in the 5 pound SUL pack weight will be my goal but may not be possible during this part of the Hike. My planning goal will be the SUL weight range.

Note: Super Ultra Light was defined by Ryan Jordan in his article titled
SuperUltraLight: Breaking the Five-Pound Barrier on 08/06/2003

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00138.html

My focus for now will be in the Shelter, Sleeping and Clothing area as these items need to work together as a system to keep my weight down as low as possible and deal with the cold weather I expect. I will be testing a number of current MYOG items and several (to be made) items over the next two months. I have also gotten or will get soon some new material to try out.

============ 0 ============

Winter Season - January to March 2007

1. PACK - SHELTER - SLEEPING: The following list is only a guide/shell at this time for the items I expect to need.

Pick List or to make:

1-a. Backpack (?) MYOG - Cuben / Mod G6 6.0(?)

1-b. New External Pack Frame(?) Current Frame 22.0

1-c. Pack liner(?) GG-med 1.35

1-d. Shelter(?) MYOG (?)
1-d-1. Sleep at a Shelter but carry a small Tarp 5.0(?)
1-d-2. Sleep in a MYOG - NEMO GOGO Style Tent
1-d-3. Sleep in a smaller MYOG Solo Tent
Stakes
Guylines

1-e. Sleeping System(?) MYOG (?)
1-e-1. Some type DAM(?)
- WarmLight DAM 24.53 oz - Inflate Bag 2.79 oz 27.32
1-e-2. Polarguard Delta Quilt/Tunic 7.82
1-e-3. Climashield - Combat Quilt/Liner - Good to 42 degrees in Bivy 6.64
1-e-4. MYOG - Down Quilt 4" to 4.5" loft - good to "O" degrees F(?) 17.0
1-e-5. GG ThinLight Pad - 3/8"(?) 6.91
1-e-6. GG ThinLight Pad - 1/4"(?) 5.33
1-f. Bivy Sack (?) Sleeping at a Shelter or with a Tarp. 3.0

1-g. Ground Sheet (?) Use with Bivy or Tent GG Polycryo Cloth (M) 1.65
---------
(?)


2. CLOTHING: The following list is only an example guide/shell at this time for the items I expect to need.

Pick list or MYOG replacement:
Hiking Pants Cloudveil Peak Pants size M 10.0p
Underwear/Shorts(?)
Patagonia Silk Boxers(M) 3.92(?)
Patagonia #1 Capailene Briefs(M)(?) 1.57(?)
Patagonia - Active Wind Brief(M)(?) 2.0(?)
New Balance Running Shorts 4.51(?)
Base / wicking layer top (?)
2-a-1 RBH Designs NTS Shirt(M) 14.0w
2-a-2 Patagonia #2 Capilene(L) 5.76(?)
2-a-3 Patagonia #2 Wool Hoody(L) 8.0p
Base / wicking layer bottom (?)
2-b-1 RBH Designs NTS Pants(M) 13.0w
2-b-2 Patagonia #1 Capilene Bottoms(M) 4.59(?)
2-b-3 Patagonia #2 Wool Bottoms(L) 6.34p
2-b-4 Sahalie-Ultralight Tights(?) 1.6(?)
Insulating top (?)
2-c-1 Tunic-Poncho Liner / Quilt 7.65p
2-c-2 Hooded Vest (?)(To Make?) (?)
2-c-3 BMW - Cocoon Pullover(?)(XL) 9.9(?)
2-c-4 MB - Parka(XL)(?) 14.5(?)
2-c-5 Patagonia - Puff Ball Pullover(XXL)(?) 13.7(?)
2-c-6 Patagonia - Puff Ball Vest(XL)(?) 12.1(?)
2-c-7 MB - Thermawrap Vest(L)(?) 8.1p
Insulating bottoms (?)
2-d-1 Pants / sleeping bag bottom(?) (?)
2-d-2 Insulated Chaps - Legs or Arms(?) 9.6(?)
2-d-3 BMW - Cocoon Pants(L)(?) 8.1(?)
2-d-4 MB - Thermawrap Pants(L)(?) 11.4(?)
Raingear (top only)(?)
2-e-1 Cuben Poncho (2.8)
2-e-2 OR Celestial XL (12.7)?*
2-e-3
Raingear (bottoms) (?)
2-f-1 Cuben Chaps(?) ?
2-f-2
Waterproof glove shells(?)
2-g-1 Cuben Mitts 0.37p
2-g-2 OR Rain Mitts 3.1p
Windgear (soft shell) top(?) Marmont Ion size L 3.53p
http://s05.marmot.com/products/product.php?cat=cloth&subcat=13&style_id=F8065
Windgear (soft shell) bottoms(?) Cuben Chaps(?) ?
Glove Liners (?)
2-h-1 - size L Manzella - Power Dry 10 L(?) 1.128(?)
2-h-2 - size XL Possumdown(?) 1.4(?)
2-h-3 - size M Patagonia Lightweight Glove Liners(?) 0.83w
Mitts - Cold Weather(?)(note-1)
2-i-1 - size XL BMW - FeatherLite Vapor Mitts(?) 4.51(?)
2-i-2 - size L Patagonia Nitro Shells (inserts-5.2) 4.0(?)
Warm hat (?) TNF - Fleece(?) 2.56(?)
Neck protection(?) ? ?
Psolar.BX(?) Balaciava w/Module 2.4p
Balaclava Cocoon UL 60 1.8p
Socks (?) Wright-Sock 1/4 1.7p
Spare socks(?) Wright-Sock 1/4 1.7p
Toe Cozies(?) Climashield Combat 0.63(?)
Vapor Barrier Booties Cuben 0.23(?)
Vapor Barrier Booties Rocky Gore-Tex - size 10L(?) 3.33(?)
Vapor Barrier Socks RBH Designs - size 10(?) 3.32w
Trail Runners(?)
2-j-1 TNF Ultra 103 XCR -size 11 36.3(?)
2-j-2 TNF Hedgehog XCR - size 11 32.3w
Trail Runner Overboots(?)
2-k-1 Kahtoola Flight Boot XL(?) 46.0(?)
2-k-2 MYOG(?) ?
Clothing stuff sack (?) (?)
--------
Pack: 49.36 oz / 3.08 pounds Wear: 63.45 oz / 3.96 pounds
Note:
1 - Mitts will be worn on my feet at night to help keep them warm.
2 - Wear = 63.45 oz. This is equal to "wear" most of the time. Very cold weather will require I wear more at times. very warm weather will require I wear less at times.
----------------------------


3. COOKING - WATER: The following list is only an example guide/shell at this time for the items I expect to need.

Pick List or MYOG replacement:

Stove(?) (?) 0.0
Windscreen (?) 0.0
Fuel bottle (?) 0.0
Matches / lighter Strike anywhere matches 0.2
Cook pot N/A 0.0
Cook pot lid N/A 0.0
Drinking mug 12 oz Soda Can 0.42
Utensils Home-Made Ti Spoon 0.23
Food storage bag Zip Locks(?) (?)
Bear bag hang system Weight counted with Pack 0.0
Water storage (?)
1 Liter Platy "bottle" 2 each(?) 1.56
Platy 2 Reservoir (?) 1.13(*) 0.0
Nalgene 48 oz Cantene(2.3oz) 4 serving Liquid Food container 55.0(*1)
Water treatment (?)
3-a-1. Katadyn Micropur MO1 Tablets (15 = 0.41) (0.41?)
3-a-2 Cuben Gravity Water Filter - If Taken - 5.61 (?)
Esbit Tablets 1 each(?) 0.5

--------
3.32p
*1 - Start each day with the Nalgene Cantene full (4 servings) to save the prep time for the food while hiking. 1 serving with water is equal to 13.2 ounces.

4. MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS: The following list is only an example guide/shell at this time for the items I expect to need.

Pick List or MYOG replacement:

Flashlight / LED 1 white photon(CR2016x1) 0.2c
Headlamp/LED Atom-Cyclops(CR2016x2) 0.89p(?)
Headlamp/LED Petzl e+Lite (CR2032x2) 0.92p
Headlamp/LED Princeton Tec Quad(3AAA-Reg) 3.48p
Trekking poles (3.67 x 2) Home-Made Trekking Pole 7.35c
Headnet(?) When necessary- add 0.33 oz 0.0p(?)
Ear plugs (?) 0.07p
Bug dope When necessary 0.0p
Blistex Ultra 1.0p
Toothbrush toothbrush 0.2p
Toothpaste (use Dr. Bronner's) 0.0p
Soap(?) Dr. Bronner's soap 0.2p
Toilet paper 6 squares per day (?)p
Potty trowel Home-Made Ti 0.31p
Wet Ones Pack of 15 (0.21 oz each) (?)p
First Aid Kit
4-a-1 Blister & minor wound care 2.3p
4-a-2 Hydropel Ointment (?)p
4-a-3 Boudreaux's Butt Paste (?)p
Whistle Attached to Sternum Strap 0.1c
Firestarting kit 0.2p
Repair Kit
4-a-1 Extra Batteries (?)p
4-a-2 LED screw driver set-2 0.215p
4-a-3 Repair Parts (?)
Sun Glasses Good Ones 2.9(?) (?)
Ski Goggles If necessary 5.8(?) (?)
4-b-1 Fog Clear if carrying goggles(?) 0.23(p)
4-b-2 Soft Cloth if carrying goggles(?) 0.28p
Watch 2.5c
Compass (on watch) 0.0c
Maps (?)c
Camera Kit
4-c-1 Casio - EX-Z750 5.5c
4-c-2 Gorillapod Tripod 1.5c
4-c-3 aloksak - 4x7 bag for camera & stuff 0.23
Journal Kit
4-d-1 PocketMail 10.9(?)
4-d-2 Rite In The Rain notebook 0.7p
4-d-3 Nalgene Waterproof Pen 0.3p
4-d-4 Cell Phone(?) (?)
Snow Shoes(?) NorthernLites - Backcountry Rescue 43.0p(?)
Snow Shoes(?) Kahtoola - Flight Deck 43.0p(?)
Crampons(?) Kahtoola Steel 23.02(?)
Screwboots Set (40 screws) 2.52



Screwboots Set (40 screws) 2.52
-------------
Pack 11.1 oz / 0.69 pounds Wear 17.38 oz / 1.09 pounds
1
2
3
4
-------
sub total with 5 days of food.
sub total 1 in pack = 134.49 oz / 8.41 pounds plus 8.75 pounds = 17.16 pounds.
sub total 2 in pack = 126.49 oz / 7.91 pounds plus 8.75 pounds = 16.66 pounds.
sub total 3 in pack = 109.83 oz / 6.86 pounds plus 8.75 pounds = 15.61 pounds.


5. CONSUMABLES: The following list is only an example guide/shell at this time for the items I expect to need.

Pick List:

Food:

Total Per One Day 29.2+/- ounces and equals 3540 calories per day.

5-a-1 Dry Ensure - 1 day (10 - servings) in a Zip Lock weighs 21.7 ounces and equals 2500 calories.
5-a-2 Carnation Breakfast Mix - 1 day (10 - servings) in a Zip Lock weighs 2.91 ounces and equals 250 calories 520
5-a-3 Hammer Perpetuem - 1 day (2 - servings) in a Zip Lock weighs 4.53 ounces and equals 520 calories.

5-a-4 Food Totals Per Re-Supply 1 day = 29.2 oz / 1.82 lb
2 days = 58.4 oz / 3.64 lb
3 days = 87.6 oz / 5.46 lb
4 days = 116.8 oz / 7.28 lb
5 days = 146 oz / 9.1 lb
6 days = 175.2 oz / 10.92
7 days = 204.4 oz / 12.74 lb
8 days = 233.6 oz / 14.56 lb
9 days = 262.8 oz / 16.38 lb
10 days = 292.2 oz / 18.2 lb

5-a-5 700 miles per resupply 35 days = 1022 oz / 63.87 lb

5-b-1 -
Dry Ensure

5-b-2 -
Hammer - Perpetuem

Water 2 L average carried (?) 64.0 / 4 - lb (?)
Fuel Maybe No Hot Meals - Liquid Diet (?) 0.0
Medicine (?)
----------------
?.?? lb (?)

In Pack - ??.?? oz (?.?? lb) (Goal for Sub 5-lb is 80 ounces.
Wear / Carry - ??.?? oz (?.?? lb)
Consume -???.?? oz (?.?? lb)
----------------
???.?? oz

Total Hike Weight ... ?? lb / ?.?? oz (?)

Total Pack Weight Start Day 1 ... ???.?? oz or ?? lb / ?.?? oz (?)


NOTES:
(1) - Food will be mostly Dry Ensure (DE) with a small amount of Carnation Instant Breakfast Drink for flavor and Hammer Perpetuem (HP) mixed in all my drinking water. A serving size for the Dry Ensure will be 250 calories (2.05 ounces) plus 32.5 calories (0.27 ounces) from the Carnation IBM. The serving per weight total is 282.5 calories and weighs 2.32 ounces. Mixing the Hammer Perpetuem (HP) with my drinking water will give me another 520 +/- calories per day along with a good mix of vitamins and nutrients. Food and HP weight per day will be about 20.88 ounces and Hammer P will be about 4.23 ounce - total will be about [25.11 ounces] or 1 pound - 9.11 ounces. 3 days = [75.33 ounces] or 4 lb - 11.33 oz / 5 days = [125.55 ounces] or 7 lb - 13.55 ounces.

My daily food plan is a double serving for breakfast and then one serving every 90 minutes of my hiking day. I will have another double serving as my evening meal at the end of my hiking day. I can drink my food warm or cold. I don't expect to warm water for my breakfast food but may heat water for my evening food. To reduce the 90 minute food pre time I will pre-mix 5 servings each morning and carry them in a 48 ounce Wide Mouth Nalgene Cantene. This should reduce the number of times I need to stop for water during the day.

(2) I will be wearing a RBH Vapr Thrm NTS Shirt and the NTS Pants on my hike this month if I can ever get out of Texas. I will start each day with the Shirt and Pants on - cold or warm - and wear them as long as I can each day. I will be recording the temperature every 2 hours and will recored how the RBH items are working. If I get to hot, I will note that, and if I can't vent enough to cool of I will remove them. I will wear them next to my skin and as my only garments as long as I can. I will also wear them to sleep each night or at least to start each night. I will live in them 24 hours a day if possible. I want to really see what temperature range I can make them work for me.

My NTS Shirt can vent through zip'ed mesh pockets and I am getting the optional "Forearm Zipper Vents". The NTS Pants come with 16" outside leg zippers to vent my legs if / when necessary. I have used VB's in my Down sleeping bags and on my feet for over 15 years so the trick will be to see how I do with the RBH Shirt and Pants over a broad temperature range.

Edited by bfornshell on 07/08/2007 21:27:53 MDT.

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/20/2006 22:40:03 MDT Print View

Bill, you might be interested in a pair of down pants that REI stopped making decades ago but they convert to a sleeping bag bottom: the leg zippers are on the INSIDE of the legs. As you sit looking down at the zipped up pants, the top of the R. leg zips to the bottom of the R. leg, the same for the L. leg. If you then un-zip both, they rigged it so that the top of the R. leg also zips to the top of the L. leg, and the bottom of the R. leg zips to the bottom of the L. leg, forming a tube. Cinch cords pull the tube tight below the feet, forming a half-bag.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 00:33:47 MDT Print View

Robert,
Thanks,

That is one of the things I am making to try out. I didn't see the ones you are talking about from REI but have seen that idea from someone else. I have a pair of pants made and just have to sew in the zippers. I don't have the "cinch " cord worked out yet but as soon as I get the zippers sewn I should see how to do that. I will then make another larger pair for the insulation. I will use a synthetic insulation on the first ones and see how that works.

It is a good idea and its just to bad they stopped making them. Do you have a pair of the REI ones?

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/21/2006 02:28:10 MDT Print View

Bill: I own a pair, but the fabric is so heavy and the down must be about 500 fill, so I've never used them in the field.

Incidentally, in order to become a bag, the garment must be longer than you would normally use for pants. The waist is so high on the REI version that they came with suspenders (made from Cuben cloth, of course.) You can also hide extra length by accordian-ing the legs upwards a little.

Another potential problem area is that the zippers could scrape against each other unless there are flaps involved.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 06:45:39 MDT Print View

Robert,

Mine are made sort of from a pattern for "bib overalls" to get the extra length as a bag. Don't ask how I figured that one out.

For now my first pants/bag will use buttons as they are easier then sewing zippers and lighter. The suspenders (made from Cuben cloth, of course and connected by more buttons.

Would you like to sell yours or loan then out to have a pattern made from them?

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/21/2006 08:15:00 MDT Print View

Bill: I'll give them to you for free as soon as I can get them out of storage (in a week or two). My favorite things in the Universe are good ideas, and if my White Elephant pants will spark some good ideas, more power to them and to you.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 08:30:22 MDT Print View

Thanks Robert,

I will try and do a pattern from them and post it so anyone that wants to try and make a pair can.

Several companies are making a half bag but that only does one thing. I think the key to a light pack in cold weather and "not be a danger to yourself" is many or all multipurpose things. Staying warm is the top of my list. I might take being wet at times but not cold and wet at the same time.

J R
(RavenUL) - F
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 09:30:38 MDT Print View

I talked to Bob Molen at Big Sky months before the big debacle with the tents came into play. We chit chatted for a while and came up with a similar idea as those REI pants.

One of the things we figured out is that if the pants could be mated to the jacket in some manner (zipper, snaps, buttons, what have you) then you wouldnt need the extra length above the hips. You would just wear the pants "low".

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 10:29:27 MDT Print View

Thanks for the comment JR,

My pants will look a lot like Bib Overalls. KWIK-SEW #KS2331 has a pattern for what they call Rain and Ski Pants/Bibs.

I will have an insulated Jacket of sorts that will go with the pants/bag idea. Once I get something made I will see if I want or need to connect the top with the bottoms.

I want to keep this all as simple as possible so it is easy to make.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/21/2006 10:48:46 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 11:14:05 MDT Print View

For any given temperature there will be a ~ 7.5 to 8.75 x difference between the pant's insulation you require when hiking versus use as a sleeping bag bottom.

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/21/2006 11:40:58 MDT Print View

Bill: That's a good idea. (Not as good an idea as SEX or THE SUNSET, but OK.) Is your mailing address a matter of public record?

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 11:45:00 MDT Print View

Richard,

I agree with you but I don't have the technical skills to come up with numbers like you can. This is why I want several layers that can be used together if necessary at night or in camp to stay warm. It doesn't take much to keep me warm while I am moving.

If I plan to use Polarguard Delta (I have enough PG-D without having to buy any more insulation) what do you suggest for the number of layers and how much insulation for each layer? For planning I expect a low temperature of "0" F. would be good enough.

I would use a bivy as my WPB outer-shell so some of my layers can be made out light silk to keep weight down as low as possible.

Thanks

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 11:54:22 MDT Print View

Robert,

My address as a matter of public record? - well all our taxing agencies seem to know it. I am also in the phone book.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/21/2006 12:16:48 MDT.

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Gear list for January on 10/21/2006 12:10:13 MDT Print View

Bill: Got it. To echo a previous poster, "Good on you."

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 14:41:49 MDT Print View

Bill's 0F Backpack Requirement Analysis

Activity------------------Body clo
Sleeping------------------8.78
Laying down---------------7.024
Sitting/Standing----------3.512
Walk around camp----------2.341
UL Back Pack Min----------1.756
UL Back Pack Max----------1.003

Assuming no wind penetration and no body movements to pump air around, conventional clothing insulation (cotton, silk, wool, rayon, etc) = 0.15 x weight of clothes in lbs. (i.e., 0.15 clo per lb of clothes). So 10 lbs. clothes = 1.5 clo.

Using the average for synthetic high-loft insulations, they provide about 4.7 clo /inch in a lab and about 4 clo / inch when worn. So using the conservative 4 clo number it would take 1.756 / 4 = .439" while UL backing at 0F.

My off-the-shelf high tech approach would be to wear, a thin long underwear base layer for moisture management and my Patagonia Puffball jacket and pants for insulation while UL backpacking at 0F. At .6" loft they are about 27% loft overkill for this application. They would have to be partially unzipped to vent the excess heat while UL backpacking. My L hooded jacket weighs 17oz and my L pants weigh 16oz for a total of 33 oz. .6" loft * 4 clo effective = 2.4 clo. 2.4 clo / 2.06 lb = 1.17 clo per lb of clothes. In other words, a representative off-the-shelf high tech solution, to this problem, is about 7.8 times more weight efficient than conventional clothing.

For sitting around camp I would add a 800 fill 3/4" loft down vest under my Puffball jacket. This would provide 1.77 clo of incremental whole body insulation if it wasn't layered under my jacket. Do to the compression of the jacket the insulation would change from abut 1.77 to 1.51 for a total of 3.9 clo. I would have to only very slightly vent my ensemble from overheating because it is greater than the 3.5 clo I would require for sitting around.

For sleeping, I would augment my day time insulation with my quilt or bag and pad insulation. I would try and layer my synthetic insulation at the top of my sleeping ensemble so that the dew point would fall there or above. This is where the optimal solution becomes more complicated and I discussed only one option of many in the forum topic dealing with torso blankets.

Note that I used a value of 4 MET for min hiking and 7 MET for max hiking heat generation. 7 MET is about the maximum that the average person can sustain for a full day. You could have short MET burst rates more than double that amount. You just unzip your jacket, if necessary, after a short MET burst.

Edited by richard295 on 10/21/2006 18:22:21 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 17:21:27 MDT Print View

Thanks Richard for taking the time to do this for me. It seems that I might be able to do this in a "light" way (I don't want to say - easier) but maybe not as hard as I first thought. Thanks also for the "off the shelf" examples. That helps a lot as I have a couple of the items you talk about.

Wearing a set of Patagonia #2 wool top and bottoms, socks and my toe cozy's, Possumdown gloves, wool "watch cap" and inside my Pertex Quantum/Cuben Bivy with my Climashield Combat and silk liner down to 42 degrees F and I was OK to warm. That is a far way from "0" F but seems do-able.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 19:34:24 MDT Print View

Bill-Your balloon bed (R value 1.01) was the weakest link in your prior sleeping ensemble test. I wouldn't recommend this type of pad below 70F. If you sleep on your stomach about 50%, back about 35%, and side about 18%, of your total insulation is determined by the pad.

For temperatures below your custom balloon bed range and above your custom down air mattress (R value ~5.9 for 2.8 inches) range there are at least two excellent alternatives: a 3.7oz Gossamer Gear NightLight (R value 2.7) or a 10.5oz TorsoLite (R value 3.5).

Pads are typically rated via R value and clothing by clo. They both measure the same thing, insulation provided by a specified thickness of material. To keep things simple I converted the R values referenced above into clo values:

R value----------clo value
1.01--------------1.2
2.7---------------3.1
3.5---------------4.0
5.9---------------6.7

Edited by richard295 on 10/22/2006 11:13:41 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start on 10/21/2006 21:14:56 MDT Print View

Richard,

Yes, You are correct about he balloon bed. The night I slept on it the temperature went down to 56 degrees (F). I had a small chemical heat pad that I put in the Bivy. This worked OK but I would have had a cold backside without it. I was sleeping at Woods Hole Shelter and was on the Shelter floor without pads. I have a lot of different kinds / brands of sleeping pads to play with.

I really like a Down Air Mattress (DAM) when I need something to sleep on in the 0 to 30 degree or so temperature range. It is just hard to go the DAM route with anything full size and get near the one pound weight mark. Each 78" poly tube with a silk tube and 1 ounce of 800+ Down in it weighs 2.48 ounces. A DAM for my Bivy would need to be 78 to 80" long and near 27" at the wide point. Strangely enough that is just about the size of my Warmlight DAM. I think my Warmlight DAM with its blow up bag weighs 26 ounces. A home made DAM that size using my poly tube system and the weighs listed above would weigh about 22 ounces+. Being that close in weight I would go with the Warmlight DAM as it is less trouble. The Warmlight DAM has 9 ounces of Down in it and has a real high R rating.

I would bite the bullet on the weight and hope to save weight someplace else to make up for it.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 12:45:56 MDT Print View

Given the following list what do you think the low temperature all this worn at the same time might be good for?

Then if I substituted a Warmlight DAM for the trimmed GG NightLight Pad how much lower do you think I could go?

• Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Pullover (9 oz)
• Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Pants (7 oz)
• Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Balaclava (prototype, 2 oz)
• Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Quilt (prototype, 18 oz)
• Bozeman Mountain Works Nano Bivy (3.5 oz)
• Gossamer Gear NightLight Pad (Trimmed to 3 oz)

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Question fo Richard or others on 10/26/2006 13:05:37 MDT Print View

Bill-I need the approximate loft and insulation type for each item, plus whether you sleep on your back, side, or stomach primarily. If you get this information to me today I will give you a response today. Otherwise I won't be able to get back to you until I return from a 3 day backpack trip which I start in the morning.

Edited by richard295 on 10/26/2006 13:22:08 MDT.