http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32110

I really don't get why people are being so oversensitive about my feedback.

If anything, I bet some of you will find this guy's pack amusing.

I am still at a loss as to what you would need 3 knives, an axe, and a machete for an overnight camp in PA. Other than just to have it for the sake of having it...?

Well, since you posted, I think you got oversensitive to replies to your post and responded in a very defensive manner. This caused others to be overly sensitive as well. It seemed to me a self-perpetuating thing through the bit of thread I read. IMHO (okay, maybe not H), snarkiness will always beget snarkiness (I know this intimately..... ;-), and that's what happened in the thread, with you as a participant, not simply an observer. FWIW

Bushcraft is a different philosophy as can be seen by the guy a couple posts in that thread talking about going minimalist yet still bringing change of clothes a axe/saw/knife. When people around here talk about going minimalist they go barefoot, and naked, with a handfull of energy bars. :)

You can try to educate the masses but where do you start with a guy that thinks a machete makes life easier? Where is he going that he's using a machete?

Bushcraft can be a very traditionalist and reactionary practice. It hearkens to simpler times and values, using techniques and materials from the past. I don't think it is any stretch that you will find much more conservative folk on the bushcraft and survival forums. They want heavy duty gear made from canvas, wool, and leather. You will find a nicely carved wood hiking staff before a carbon fiber trekking pole, etc. In general, you will find that bushcrafters are campers, but not long-distance backpackers.

My complaint is that they don't practice Leave No Trace and often tear up the woods making shelters and camp fires. If they are practicing on private land, there isn't much to say, but on public land it is downright criminal. I saw one thread where a couple young guys went out on National Forest land and couldn't find a good spot for their big tent, so they dug out and leveled a 12'x12' area to pitch it--- I mean landscaped!

I feel ya, Cesar! I said what I could, as you saw. I think they're really holding tight to values over there, which is not surprising from a specific kind of forum.
I've been a member over there for a short while, long enough to have seen a shift to the defensive from many of the long-term members as the board expands, along with the diversity of its general members. I usually just head straight to the 'backpacking' section now-a-days when I visit over there.

Agreed on the LNT practice, by any group. In all fairness, there are plenty of BCers that try to practice LNT, albeit, a large part of the BC paradigm is using what resources are available; there are lots of outdoor enthusiasts that don't practice LNT, unfortunately.


"Good" at essay writing, eh? ...a fellow English major, perhaps?

Edited by AaronMB on 03/18/2011 09:19:51 MDT.

Doug:

You really thought I was snarky? Hmm. I honestly don't feel that I was being snarky. Perhaps you are fair that I got defensive/sensitive towards the end, but I felt like I was getting attacked by like 3 or 4 different people and wanted to just do a good job defending myself. I honestly just wanted to gather information from the guy and give helpful feedback. He gave what I thought were kind of strange answers, like needing a machete in PA. I mean I lived in PA, I know a lot of the landscape, and that just does not make sense to me.

Aaron:

Ah, here you are on this end! Cool to see you, and thanks again for your input over there. Looks like the mods got rid of the thread. I went to check it today and it's gone. Oh well. I won't loose any sleep over it.

And yes I am an English major. Working on my masters and looking to continue on to Ph.D after that. :) And you?

@Everyone else:

Thanks for the feedback, makes me feel like I am not totally insane. I do see the trend is for more conservative type people, and that they value durablity over many other things, to the point of it being a burden sometimes. Oh well. I tried to present some advice and tried to be rational about it, but sometimes if people are set in their ways, there is nothing to be done about it.

I am very happy that I was able to get my 3 season kit from 23lbs to around 13-15lbs depending on what I am doing. My warm weather kit is 8-9lbs and I can't wait to test it out. All of that was made possible by challenging my hobby with some good questions like, "Do I really need this?" and "Could I replace this with something just as good/better that is lighter?" It takes an open mind, and willingness to admit that maybe the way I was doing things for many years was more difficult that it should have been.

But to each their own. At the end of the day, I don't care what people take with them. It's their backpack. My good friends that join me camping have no problems with the advice I give them, and have been very open and interested to hear more and more about lightweight and ultralightweight technique and thought. It's only strangers on the internet that are hostile/defensive about it for some odd reason...

Don't sweat it. If they were really good BCrs they would only need a single knife.

Ken - Ha. I never thought about it that way.

Cesar - Indeed, another English grad' student here. I will finish my coursework this semester and finalize my thesis over the summer session. All in all, it will be an MA in Literature and a Certificate in Composition. I'm tired, so I won't be pursuing the PhD just yet but I wouldn't at all mind immersing myself in University of Oregon's (Eugene) Literature and Environmental Studies PhD program.
As to your original/recent post: it doesn't happen often, but it seems that when "they're right" the thread remains and is sometimes locked; when "they're wrong," threads disappear.

Edited by AaronMB on 03/19/2011 09:34:06 MDT.

Am I missing something, or did you get edited out of the bushcraft thread?

edit--nevermind, saw that you mentioned it was removed.

Edited by iwillchopyou@hotmail.com on 03/19/2011 11:45:59 MDT.

Look out, people fighting on the internet!

I honestly don't think many people on those forums have any idea what bushcraft really is. They are turning it into some weird camo clad style of camping. Nylon military backpacks? Multiple knives? And what does wearing camo have to do with bushcraft?
There was a time when military packs were the only ones still being made of cotton canvas and they still have good quality wool clothing for good prices. That is the only reason people had any military equipment when they tried to avoid synthetic materials. I am at a loss as to why so many choose the equipment they do and call it "bushcraft".
It seems as if some people are embracing the ridiculous classicist stereo type that yuppies have of poorer peoples who still use traditional skills and in turn twisted what bushcraft is.
The man credited with coining the term "bushcraft" is known for saying: " the more you know the less you carry". So when people say that using traditional outdoor skills is heavy and gear intensive its a sure sign they have no clue what they are talking about.
Accusing the practice of bushcraft of being anti-LNT is not fair. There is a difference between a subject of study and a practice with how individuals behave. You can not tell me that all backpackers practice LNT we all know its not true.

Edited by MAYNARD76 on 03/20/2011 00:45:26 MDT.

That link to the 1907 Abercrombie and Fitch catalog in that thread was fun to breeze through. Honestly, I never knew they EVER sold anything besides clothing for hipsters.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LeM-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA0&lpg=PA74&dq=Abercrombie+%26+Fitch+canteen&source=bl&ots=TnQKHToUbX&sig=AunQ_B5fsbIsKGh2iIUJzodxXWY&hl=en&ei=2ZZKTaOdGorGgAfA-LA8&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Wow, that Abercrombie and Fitch article is awesome, little slice of a time past.

This excerpt on the A&F Co. 9lb. Pneumatic Mattress Airbed was humorous.

"Many campers knowing nothing else claim they prefer fir boughs, but no camper having once taken a pneumatic bed into camp will ever go again without it."

Abercrombie and Fitch Co., New York, 1907- Catalog

Sound familiar?

ha, Im looking for a modern UL version of the "tump line" on page 82. Looks pleasant.

Edited by ShortBus on 03/20/2011 15:51:49 MDT.

Materialism is dogmatic. More stuff is always better! ;)

RE:"tump line"

That what the Sherpas on Everest use.

I honestly don't understand why there isn't more of a blend between the two styles of camping. People like nessmuck and kephart were the pioneers of ultralight backpacking. Nessmuck had a huge section on his hatchet and how to properly maintain an all night fire. However, most bushcrafters seem to be put off by any measure of long distance travel. I can't really blame them.
You can be an ultralight, minimalist bushcrafter. I use resources instead of carrying them in. I carry a hatchet so I can get a fire going in any weather, leave the fuel, stakes, and sleeping pad at home. Utilizing nature and relying on it for your survival enlightens you in a way that probably most of you have never experienced.
If you are hiking outside of well used areas, leaving no trace is no a big deal. Just cover stomp your coals into a powder, cover with dirt, and leave. In a couple of growing seasons, if you come back you will hardly be able to tell that anyone was there.

Great Pacific Iron Works had an ultralight tumpline, Chouinard claimed it helped him with a neck injury I think after seeing how well developed South American Indians neck and shoulder girdles were.Here's a link to an ultralight thread here.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=37188
Be careful what you ask for.

I read that thread over at Bushcraft before it evaporated into free electrons.
I found it very interesting. There was input for various viewpoints; more than I expected over there. Actually, there were a few posters that expressed a balanced view or open mind at least. Some applauded the LNT in principle while others counted how many knives, axes and saws they carried.

Bottom line was that I found the tread to be a micro-cosmic picture of who is out there in the outdoors. It was a stimulating discussion; at least as far as I read. It may have gone downhill after that and resulted in it going "poof."

In case you were wondering, many of the people on that site think you are all bat-sh*t crazy. But that's because the ones who stood out are the tissue paper poncho/tarp and quilt/sweater guys using dental floss to pitch a tarp and carrying cheap plastic and boiling water in a pepsi can. The ultralight scene is much more moderate and balanced than that.
But there aren't just guys out there carrying massive packs, some of them are carrying blanket roll packs or spending the night with an over the shoulder maxpedition pack, ect. They might not consider weight of individual items that much, but they can do a whole lot with lot less. I saw a guy do a 3 nighter, he actually walked in 15 miles. All he had was a smaller maxpedition pack, slept with just a space blanket and a fire. He ran out of food and caught some fish. Maybe his maxepdition pack weighed more than your 50 liter pack, but still...

Also, regarding the guy taking a machete, I have heard people say that places in PA can get really overgrown. So maybe he needed it for that purpose. And he probably wanted to try out different knives.