Tom,

Calm down, you are going to have a heart attack. Lets keep this on a conversational level.

The comments about Scandinavia was in response to their high tax rate and excellent society.

Keep in mind that a society or government does not occur naturally, they are aritificial (e.g., man made).

Societies and governments are not living organisms. Their irreducible primary is man.

Man is more important than the society or the government. Lets not lose sight of that.

Unlike plants and animals, man has no automatic means of survival. To live he has to provide for himself through his own efforts. Man has to develop conceptual knowledge to survive. Conceptual knowledge is not automatic or instinct. It is volitional. That is; man must decide to think. He must set his own course of action if he wants to live. Reason (mind) is man’s basic tool of survival. He is born with only the potential to live and the natural materials with which to achieve it. He is born with only the freedom to make the decisions that ultimately determines whether he lives or dies. His life is his own responsibility. Since man’s mind is his basic tool of survival, he must have the freedom to think and to act based on his own rational decisions – this is his only means of survival. His survival REQUIRES the freedom to think AND act in his own best interest – this is Man’s Nature.

However, man can benefit by living in a social group. Knowledge can be shared and expanded. Additionally man can benefit by the division of labor and by freely trading with other men. There is no benefit for man to enter a society unless each member is free to produce and trade with each other. This is the only rational purpose for a social group. Each man can increase his own production, and accumulate excess to further secure his survival. Any society that takes away the product of a man’s effort, makes him a slave, or limits his individual freedom is a society that compels man to live in conflict with Man’s Nature.

To secure man’s right to freedom, men can form a government to protect its members from external physical force (foreign invaders), and internal physical force again any member (criminals). This is the only legitimate function of government; to ensure that man is free to live his life as defined by Man’s Nature.

Tom,

My post was not about me. It was about poverty in America. It was about poor people, the good, the bad, and the indifferent. It was about my statement that in America, people do not have to be poor if they do not want to be. I also stated that many poor people in this country do not want to escape poverty. All I tried to impart is the fact that the poverty in this country is hard and ugly. That is all. In this country most people can do something about it if they really want to. And I did not say it is easy.

Yes Tom, Detroit has some of the worst neigborhoods in America. And you may have driven through them. They are worse today. And my first hand knowledge is that I have relatives who live in them -- in Detroit. The neighborhoods; if I gave the street names, people who know Detroit will tell you they are the worst of the worst. These neighborhoods could make my trips there depressing, but some of those I know in Detroit have more conviction that they will overcome this, than those who crusade society must eliminate poverty. And that optimism is uplifting. Some are doing everything they can to get out, and they will. Others will not even try.

Just to let everyone know... I do not take my statement lightly, that people can build a better life, and take control of their destiny. It is hard, very hard. If you are poor in America, you are probably Black or Hispanic (statistically). If you are black, it is particulary difficult to escape poverty. We still have racism in America, whether it is outright or subtle. It is worse for Blacks than any other group. Tom, you and I are white. No matter what we may think, we can never know what it feels like to be black. Hispanics are also having a particularly bad time of it, with the backlash over the immigration controvery.

I have seen 3rd world poverty, Tom. I was in the military. I have seen worse than poverty. I have seen inhumanity in its most depraved form.

I did not state it in my first post. But I will here, since there seems to be a question about my perception of poverty. For me poverty is personal -- today, right now; not a topic of the idle middle class on a computer screen.

And Tom, this post is not in anger. I extend an olive branch, with the intent that we can discuss issues, in the spirit of The Great Conversation.

Kevin,

I remember the Japanese "junk" even before transistor radios. The stuff was a joke. And then later, I remember some of the best camera and stereo equipment came from Japan. Actually China does produce some very quality stuff, and crap too. But there are some fundamental problems that may or may not allow China to reach it potential. One is their mixed economy and the lingering communism.

The country I look to is South Korea. Not many natural resources for its size and popluation. But some excellent technology and products. The last few years Hyundai has gotten higher initial quality scores than almost all the manufacturers in the world. Also the country is a democratic republic with 3 branches similar to the US.

Okay, what's the story on the pack you're holding out in your avatar?

I'm guessing that's not a day pack

Its a ULA Conduit. That picture is a few years old, I should put something else up there. Would a picture of Lady Gaga enhance my image?

Lady Gaga, nice, wearing a backpacking themed outfit

So is it an overnight set of gear in the backpack?

Thanks for starting this thread Jerry. Not.

Sorry Ken, not : )

First, people complained that this was contaminating the New Balance thread

I guess one should not live one's life trying to please everyone, or one will be hopelessly conflicted

True Jerry. Not that I have read much of either thread. But what does one hope to achieve by starting this type of conversation?
We are not going to change things from here.

Was great at Coe. All different backgrounds playing nice together. Avoiding topics like politics and religion...

These winter threads always get so unpleasant. Bla Bla Bla...

I am with you Ken. That's why I like getting to know other backpackers on the trail, not just online.
Condescension and olive branches don't have much in common, unless you extend the branch waaaaaay down there.

Edited by Kat_P on 03/13/2011 11:28:23 MDT.

Online or trail? Condescension or condensation? Ladies and gentlemen, pick your poison. :)

"These winter threads always get so unpleasant."

Unfortunately, some of the spring, summer and autumn threads are getting unpleasant as well, it seems.

You're right, it was great at Coe. I need to get out more.

Edited by idester on 03/13/2011 10:49:29 MDT.

All of a sudden condensation doesn't sound so bad, and I have a Tarptent ;)

Keep this a secret, but millions of cars assembled in US plants are built by workers employed by foreign brands like BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz and Toyota.

We do a lot in foreign countries. However, foreign countries do a lot here.

Browse these docs if you're interested in the unhyped story...

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/foreign_commerce_aid/foreign_investment.html

"Not that I have read much of either thread. But what does one hope to achieve by starting this type of conversation?"

I've read a little of the carbon flame war - but it's sort of boring reading someone trying to convince someone else to their opinion

and it's sort of tiring hearing people insult each other

but, I think the country is going in a dangerous direction with undue influence by a few wealthy people

it's been worse before, I think we'll survive, it's not as bad as it seems

I don't want to just sit by and at least not attempt to do something about it

must be about time to go for a walk or go work in the garden

"Tom,

Calm down, you are going to have a heart attack. Lets keep this on a conversational level."

Reduced to snide remarks, are we? C'mon, Nick, you can do better than that.

"The comments about Scandinavia was in response to their high tax rate and excellent society."

There is no free lunch; you, of all people, ought to know that.

As for the rest of your lecture, we've heard all of this before, both in this and in previous threads. I thought it had pretty much been put to rest, but I see it lives on as a figment of your imagination. Let it go, Nick. Whether you like it or not, you live in a complex society of interdependent individuals which includes you. You rail against it, and yet you seem to be doing quite well working within it and show no inclination to go off into the wilderness and put your rugged individual philosophy to the ultimate test. I am experiencing a little cognitive dissonance here.

I will continue to ignore the fact that no matter what I say you seem to think you need to educate me or prove that you are right. Which, by the way, is not a 'conversation'. And business 101/102; I think I might have some experience with business and owning a business even if it wasn't a 'gas station'.

Any way, you commented that;

"But there are some fundamental problems that may or may not allow China to reach it potential. One is their mixed economy and the lingering communism."

In a way I think this might turn out to be China's strength. Maybe we have come to the end of the road as to how far our system of government and economy can take us. Maybe they will develop a system that better balances the needs of individuals with the needs of the community. Wealth can be measured in more ways than money, and they will have to figure it out since I do not believe that our planet could sustain China becoming the consumerists that we have become.

I didn't grow up in the US, but I studied in the American school system overseas from grade school to high school -- then came over for my bachelor's and master's degrees.

In some ways, there are advantages for outsiders looking in (which is why all closed societies eventually fail). What strikes me is the way History is written in our textbooks and taught in our schools! Everything -- and I mean everything -- is oriented to a straight line -- a line of progression! We start out as savages, we do a very cursory study of the civilizations of the Near East and the Orient. We then focus on the birth of democracy in Greece and the first flash of brilliance that was imperial Rome. We take a fall back into the Dark Ages. We then progress almost like clockwork through western Europe, then Britain, then finally our very own United States of America. Every generation is marked by ever more progress -- technological as well as social. We become ever more enlightened.

Wow, it's all there! Study hard, work hard -- and we'll all arrive at one logical conclusion! It saddens, but doesn't surprise me, to see so many fellow Americans being so confident that they have the answers -- and others just need to step up. Why, we don't even have to travel -- we just need to THINK!!! Who needs firsthand experience anyhow, eh?

What many fellow Americans don't realize -- is their awfully simplistic way of "thinking" -- capitalism is good, ergo socialism is bad. Democracy is good, ergo dictatorship is bad. Actually, to be impolite -- but more correct -- that's not even thinking -- that's mental knee jerking -- and nothing more!

"But there are some fundamental problems that may or may not allow China to reach it potential. One is their mixed economy and the lingering communism."

Maybe. Maybe not. But the person who wrote that will do himself a great service if he will actually visit the place and see for himself -- rather than "THINKING" his way to what he thinks is the logical conclusion. In many ways, China is now actually more capitalistic than the US (not necessarily better or worse in and of itself). And ANYONE thinking that the US hasn't a mixed economy with some socialist traits is a FOOL. Ever heard of public utilities? Government-funded R&D? Government funded schools? The list goes on and on.

The devil is in the details. Every single economy on Earth is mixed -- even in North Korea. Some work better than others. Some work better AT DIFFERENT TIMES than others. Maybe we need to THINK even more??? Actually, acquiring some firsthand experience -- then couple one's observations with further studying and thinking -- will generate much, much more mileage.

Edited by ben2world on 03/13/2011 18:08:30 MDT.

"And Tom, this post is not in anger. I extend an olive branch, with the intent that we can discuss issues, in the spirit of The Great Conversation."

Discussions are best conducted as between equals, Nick. It is pretty obvious to me that you do not feel that to be the case, and as long as you continue in this manner I will confront you on it.

The issues have been and continue to be discussed, in spite of your generally condescending tone and frequent displays of arrogance. Many of the BPL community members have every bit as much experience of life as you and are as well educated, be it formally or in the school of hard knocks, or both. You would do well to keep this in mind when posting. "Maintaining a decent respect for the opinions of mankind" is never bad form when participating in The Great Conversation.

Your two posts above illustrate my point perfectly, as do previous ones that I responded to. When your tone changes, there will be no need for an olive branch.
Frankly, your opinions are thought provoking and well reasoned, obviously the product of a fine mind; stripped of the offensive characteristics previously mentioned, they are well worth debating, IMO. Hopefully it will come to pass that we can do so as part of a continuing conversation between equals.

"The devil is in the details. Every single economy on Earth is mixed -- even in North Korea. Some work better than others. Some work better AT DIFFERENT TIMES than others. Maybe we need to THINK even more??? Actually, acquiring some firsthand experience -- then couple one's observations with further studying and thinking -- will generate much, much more mileage."

A huge +1 to your entire post, Ben!