Jerry,

I sure would to know where you get your facts. Gates did not come from a wealthy family. Upper middle class at best. While in high school he was paid for his programming skills. He scored 1590 out of 1600 on his SAT in a time when kids were not coached on how to take the test. In the early days Microsoft did not have enough money to pay employees a reasonable wage so many were paid in stock. The company was founded by Gates and Paul Allen. In the early days Gates reviewed every line of code. Gates is successful because he has ability and used it. Also Gates dropped out of college. What about all those unfortunate employees who got paid stock instead of money? Over 12,000 millionaires and 4 billionaires.

There are only two classes in America.
There is a working class.
There is an ownership class.
We do not have a waiting to be ownership class, but people vote like we do.

So far, we have 2/300000000 people listed as changing from working class to ownership class.

People still vote like they believe they will do the same.

Odd of being hit by lightening, 2E-6

Odds of changing social class in America, 6E-7

:Lets try to think of a few more that actually changed classes, maybe we can get the numbers up to the probability of being hit by lightening.

Edited by redmonk on 03/11/2011 15:17:38 MST.

First that discription of only two classes is flat out wrong.

Second:
I haven't seen anybody listed as not being able to move up....

I can see why the Republicans are going after unions - most of the Deomocratic contributions

Craig,

I probably understand the role sex and race play better than most people. I live with it every day. There are two things that have to be addressed by the individual: what are you going to do about it and are you willing to fight for your rights. Yes it is not fair, but it will not change one iota unless the down trodden take action.

"woe is me is not going to work." Each individual who to works to overcome prejudice and racism does so by proving they have earned the right to be treated by their actions, not their color or sex. It is not right, is not moral, and it is not fair. But no amount of money, legislation or programs can fix this problem. Only people can fix this problem. Pointing out the problem does not fix it. You are fortunate because your profession puts you in a position to help paint the vision. So let's all focus on what can be, not what is.

They call it the American Dream, because it doesn't really exist.
Keep dreaming.

" It was just one quick example of a cost that regulations can impose on US companies that put them at a comparative disadvantage in the market place."

If the market place was the only thing that mattered, I would be anti regulation as well, Michael. However, I feel that environmental issues can no longer be ignored and think it is good long range public policy to take into consideration the health of the world we live in, and will pass on to the next generation. If the consensus opinion of climate scientists is anywhere near the mark, regulating CO2 needs to be right up at the top of the list of pollutants to be regulated, no matter the cost.

Totally agree. As The Great Carbon Flame War thread well illustrates, it is very easy to get bogged down, and we all have lives to live.

"If it is a publicly traded company, employees are free to purchase stock and become owners and participate in the profit and potential increase in the value of the company."

Maybe you should try running your calculations for a median family income of $49,777 and see how much is left over to purchase company stock.

"Or what if the billions of dollars we spend every year still do not prevent them?"

The influence peddlers you mention do a pretty good job of gutting enforcement of laws, or the box score would be much better. Even so, we have not had a significant nuclear incident since 3 Mile Island, if memory serves me. Logically speaking it is impossible to prove that the billions of dollars spent do not prevent ecological disasters, as you have no idea how many would have occurred absent the spending of those billions of dollars. All you can do is point to those that did occur and call the regulatory expense a waste. I personally wish the regulations were fully enforced and expanded. Perhaps then we would not have had the BP disaster and Hanford, the ultimate toxic waste site, would be much further along in its cleanup, to mention a couple of the more egregious problems.

"Also realize that companies also pay state income tax, state and local property taxes, numerous and increasing: licenses, permits, use fees, workmen compensation, unemployment taxes, regulation costs, etc. etc."

And yet somehow, after all of that, they manage to scrape enough together to pay their execs 7 and 8 figure salaries/bonuses/stock options, buy back stock to pump up the price to keep their shareholders happy and their own option lucrative, pay dividends, and fund lobbyist and political campaigns. And if they move their operations overseas? Why they get all the bennies you mention to boot. Never mind the economic devastation they leave in their wake. Hey, we can just retrain the unemployed for the high tech jobs of the future. But training programs cost money, and that means taxes, and besides most of those high tech jobs can be done cheaper guess where?. Why overseas, of course.

"Even so, we have not had a significant nuclear incident since 3 Mile Island, if memory serves me."

Chernobyl?

"I sure would to know where you get your facts. Gates did not come from a wealthy family"

His dad is a wealthy lawyer - not mega wealthy like Bill is today but well off

I'm just remembering from memory

When Bill was going to high school, they had computers which was a bit unusual at the time. Public school, but his was better than average because it was in a more well off area

When Bill got the first contract with IBM for the opearating system, they had a hard time taking the young, geeky Bill seriously, but they talked to his father who was a well off lawyer who gave them more confidence

Mostly, it was just that IBM underestimated the potential market for software, stupid IBM

"Hey, we can just retrain the unemployed for the high tech jobs of the future."

Why? You want to handcuff the only people who can create those high tech jobs. So they will create those jobs overseas.

"Gates did not come from a wealthy family. Upper middle class at best."

Uh, Gates went to Lakeside High School, Seattle's premier HS. Tuition is $25,000+; teacher:student ratio is 1:9. Let's let it go at saying he didn't exactly start behind the 8 ball. That said, neither did the 45% of the student body that is of color. It's a truly world class high scool. Gates came from a very upper middle class family, indeed. Some might even say wealthy.

"Chernobyl?"

Uh, refresh my memory, Jerry. Which state is Chernobyl in?

" You want to handcuff the only people who can create those high tech jobs."

Handcuff them? How? What kind of regulatory handcuffs have we slapped on Big Blue, Microsoft, HP, and other high tech companies? They're not big polluters, at least not that I know of.

"So they will create those jobs overseas."

Which they would do anyway, simply because it's cheaper. Or, bring the workers here on an H-1B visa.

Edited by ouzel on 03/11/2011 20:18:13 MST.

American dream is dead...ha...my personel perspective says thats pretty far off.
I grew up in a pretty poor family. Probably bottom 20% (maybe lower) when considering size of family and correcting for my family's local cost of living. I rarely got new clothing (till I got my own job), we qualified for reduce lunch @ school (didn't "need" it so didn't use it), diner was typically beenie weenies or some form of spam, shoot will lived without running water for a short time (months)and only 1 bathroom for 8 ppl for 3 yrs after that.
I attended a pretty weak high school -- no special programs, advanced classes...etc. And I certainly was no standout in said school (had plenty of fun though). I was 10th by GPA but only about 40 graduated that year :)

When I started college I looked for a degree that met the following criteria (in roughly this order):
1) Demand for degree in the workforce
2) Pay
3) Length to obtain degree
4) Relative enjoyment level I anticipated getting out of it

I settled on Engineering (Mechanical). Next I selected a school factoring in:
1) Tution cost
2) Quality of education
3) Cost of living while there

I settled on a nearby (100 miles from home) public institution known for it ENGR program (TTU baby). I paid for nearly all of my college expenses (mom covered health/car insurance and 6hrs of my college courses). What little I couldn't cover I borrowed (almost $7000 in total). Worked on all breaks (winter, spring and summer) and got out as quickly as possibe (3.5yrs). I graduated in Dec 2007 and had three job offers in Jan 2008 (I was only looking in East Tn no less).

3yrs later I would say I am in the upper middle class bracket (top 15-20% based on income). I don't say this to brag and hope it doesn't come off that way. I would say I did nothing special and I wouldn't rate myself as exceptional in any metric needed to succeed in this world. I didn't lie or cheat my way to the top. I feel lucky to be where I am but I wouldn't say that was real factor that got me where I am today -- I worked really hard for 3.5 years and continue to do so on the job.

Just one data point but I really feel my situation is non-unique

You said:

"Even so, we have not had a significant nuclear incident since 3 Mile Island, if memory serves me."

and we were discussing a nuclear incident in Japan

which state is Japan in?

nuclear fallout doesn't respect national borders, as Chernobyl taught us, I hope we don't learn this again because I'm down wind

"Handcuff them? How? What kind of regulatory handcuffs have we slapped on Big Blue, Microsoft, HP, and other high tech companies? They're not big polluters, at least not that I know of."

Manufacturing high tech stuff produces a bunch of nasty waste

Aren't there large areas contaminated by perchlorides East of the bay areea?

and PCB contamination all over the country?

there are some wells here in Beaverton contaminated with some waste product?

fortunately environmental regulations have increased over time so this kind of pollution has decreased.

"and we were discussing a nuclear incident in Japan"

We were? And here I thought we were discussing how over regulation was forcing US companies to relocate overseas. Which thread are we in anyway? Now I'm really. confused. :(

"which state is Japan in?"

Ya got me there, Jerry. ;-)