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Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Buying Chinese Goods" on 03/14/2011 16:57:29 MDT Print View

"I'm afraid the computers may ruin the ability to write well."


Probably a fear in most countries.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Buying Chinese Goods" on 03/14/2011 17:49:12 MDT Print View

Good lyrics. In explaining life, artists are better at it than politicians.

Us and them
And after all we're only ordinary men
Me, and you
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do
Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
and the General sat, and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side

Black and blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and Down
And in the end it's only round and round and round
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
The poster bearer cried
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside

Down and Out
It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about
With, without
And who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about
Out of the way, it's a busy day
I've got things on my mind
For want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died

John Nausieda
(Meander) - MLife

Locale: PNW
"buying Chinese Goods" on 03/14/2011 20:15:00 MDT Print View

I was subject to the draft. Everybody who came back was addicted . Only the Black Marketeer did well.
Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore
© John Prine

While digesting Reader's Digest
In the back of a dirty book store,
A plastic flag, with gum on the back,
Fell out on the floor.
Well, I picked it up and I ran outside
Slapped it on my window shield,
And if I could see old Betsy Ross
I'd tell her how good I feel.

Chorus:
But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.

Well, I went to the bank this morning
And the cashier he said to me,
"If you join the Christmas club
We'll give you ten of them flags for free."
Well, I didn't mess around a bit
I took him up on what he said.
And I stuck them stickers all over my car
And one on my wife's forehead.

Repeat Chorus:

Well, I got my window shield so filled
With flags I couldn't see.
So, I ran the car upside a curb
And right into a tree.
By the time they got a doctor down
I was already dead.
And I'll never understand why the man
Standing in the Pearly Gates said...

"But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
We're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more."

Sam Stone
©John Prine

Sam Stone came home,
To his wife and family
After serving in the conflict overseas.
And the time that he served,
Had shattered all his nerves,
And left a little shrapnel in his knee.
But the morphine eased the pain,
And the grass grew round his brain,
And gave him all the confidence he lacked,
With a Purple Heart and a monkey on his back.

Chorus:
There's a hole in daddy's arm where all the money goes,
Jesus Christ died for nothin' I suppose.
Little pitchers have big ears,
Don't stop to count the years,
Sweet songs never last too long on broken radios.
Mmm....

Sam Stone's welcome home
Didn't last too long.
He went to work when he'd spent his last dime
And Sammy took to stealing
When he got that empty feeling
For a hundred dollar habit without overtime.
And the gold rolled through his veins
Like a thousand railroad trains,
And eased his mind in the hours that he chose,
While the kids ran around wearin' other peoples' clothes...

Repeat Chorus:

Sam Stone was alone
When he popped his last balloon
Climbing walls while sitting in a chair
Well, he played his last request
While the room smelled just like death
With an overdose hovering in the air
But life had lost its fun
And there was nothing to be done
But trade his house that he bought on the G. I. Bill
For a flag draped casket on a local heroes' hill.

Repeat Chorus
Sam Stone
©John Prine

Sam Stone came home,
To his wife and family
After serving in the conflict overseas.
And the time that he served,
Had shattered all his nerves,
And left a little shrapnel in his knee.
But the morphine eased the pain,
And the grass grew round his brain,
And gave him all the confidence he lacked,
With a Purple Heart and a monkey on his back.

Chorus:
There's a hole in daddy's arm where all the money goes,
Jesus Christ died for nothin' I suppose.
Little pitchers have big ears,
Don't stop to count the years,
Sweet songs never last too long on broken radios.
Mmm....

Sam Stone's welcome home
Didn't last too long.
He went to work when he'd spent his last dime
And Sammy took to stealing
When he got that empty feeling
For a hundred dollar habit without overtime.
And the gold rolled through his veins
Like a thousand railroad trains,
And eased his mind in the hours that he chose,
While the kids ran around wearin' other peoples' clothes...

Repeat Chorus:

Sam Stone was alone
When he popped his last balloon
Climbing walls while sitting in a chair
Well, he played his last request
While the room smelled just like death
With an overdose hovering in the air
But life had lost its fun
And there was nothing to be done
But trade his house that he bought on the G. I. Bill
For a flag draped casket on a local heroes' hill.

Repeat Chorus

Edited by Meander on 03/14/2011 20:22:59 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
A little further back on 03/14/2011 20:50:40 MDT Print View

It's an old, old story. Will we ever learn? :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2EZWgxFSic&feature=relmfu

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: A little further back on 03/14/2011 21:27:09 MDT Print View

Hey, that's supposed to be "When Johnny Comes Marching Home"!!

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
@ John (John Prine) on 03/14/2011 22:50:04 MDT Print View

Thought you might get a kick out of this. Both those songs are on this John Prine album, which was his debut album released in 1971. It is one of the first albums I bought when I got our of the service in '71.


John Prine

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Buying Chinese Goods" on 03/14/2011 23:23:05 MDT Print View

"Good lyrics. In explaining life, artists are better at it than politicians."

Lyrics from my youth. Explaining life is the purpose of art.

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
@ John (John Prine) on 03/14/2011 23:53:56 MDT Print View

Wow - CDs were huge back then.

Here's one for workers everywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrdl4ijru8o

Even if you don't agree with the sentiment the singing and guitar playing are wonderful to me.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: @ John (John Prine) on 03/15/2011 00:20:07 MDT Print View

"Wow - CDs were huge back then."

Yes they were!! I have a nice LP collection, but a I am not an audiophile. Nice thing about those albums was stuff that was sometimes included inside the jacket such as booklets. Plus I don't want to purchase an addition version in another format. I bought a digital turntable awhile back that can convert LPs to MPGs, but it is not an easy process, as you have to manually separate the tracks and name them. There might be software out there now that automatically does that. Guess I'll have to check one of these days.

When my kids were little in the early 90's they used to bring their friends over to see the Large CD's as the called them :)

And 20 years later I am stil listening to them.

But then, I still use a slide rule. Haven't needed to change a battery in 40+ years.

Robert Cowman
(rcowman) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Re: Re: @ John (John Prine) on 03/15/2011 00:29:23 MDT Print View

Saw him live last year at hippie fest(actually it's called Folkfest). though he was better than Ben Harper in someways.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: @ John (John Prine) & FolkFest on 03/15/2011 01:15:51 MDT Print View

Folk music (at least in the US) is a sort of barometer of the culture. In the 60's it saw a huge revival, and the theme of the 60's folk music was mostly focused on civil rights and the Viet Nam war. I was a teenager and entered adulthood in the 60's so it is still a vivid memory. Although history will align it to the "hippie movement," it was heavily influenced by Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Alan Lomax and those before them. And if you have never heard it, "Alice's Restaurant," by Guthrie's son Arlo is great. Usually folk music is not commercially successful or commands much of an audience. But the 60's saw some Super Stars in the likes of Peter, Paul and Mary; Joan Baez; Bob Dylan; and my favorite Joni Mitchell. And speaking of Seeger, he sang at Obama's inauguration, at the spry age of 89 and played to a crowd of 30,000 people at Madison Square Garden on his 90th birthday. There are a lot of Seeger's ideas that I do not agree with, but some I do. Seeger wrote many songs that were hits for other artists in the 60's and 70's.

It has really declined since then. I think we will be seeing and resurgence again, driven by unpopular wars (Iraq and Afghanistan), and Gay Rights (the next civil rights battleground).

Kat P.
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Taking a leap on 03/15/2011 07:23:47 MDT Print View

"
Katharina,

I am definitely not infallible!"

Agreed. None of us are.
As far as the thread on prepackaged condiments, it was not your post that was viewed as judgemental, as far as I can tell and certainly not by me. It was someone else taking your post and extending it to make indeed a moral judgement about other forum members, with a condescending and holier than thou tone. And nothing gets to me more than the holier/ better than you attitude.



Edited to correct word order

Edited by Kat_P on 03/15/2011 17:19:51 MDT.

The Idemonster
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: @ John (John Prine) & FolkFest on 03/15/2011 08:55:11 MDT Print View

"it was heavily influenced by Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Alan Lomax and those before them"

I saw Pete Seeger and Arlo Guthrie in concert years ago. It was a wonderful concert, with the widest range of ages in attendance for any concert I've ever been to. The did it in a rather cool way as well. Seeger started and sang a few songs. Then Guthrie came out and sang a few songs while Seeger sat on the edge of the stage watching him with the rest of us. They changed places a few times, one singing a couple of songs while the other watched from the stage. They sang a few together. Delightful show.

Prine is still a legend. I've got a couple of his live albums, one quite recent. I'd love to see him live.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
basic institutions and democratic equality on 03/15/2011 10:27:11 MDT Print View

an interesting read...

http://understandingsociety.blogspot.com/2011/03/basic-institutions-and-democratic.html

Basic institutions and democratic equality

Modern societies seem to produce persistent social inequalities that are contradictory to many of the values we espouse when it comes to the idea of democratic equality. We continue to find wealth and income inequalities, inequalities of educational and health outcomes, inequalities of political power and influence, and these disparities seem to increase over time. Is this a residual defect in these specific societies, or is it rather a natural result of the logic of the institutions that define a market economy and an electoral democracy in the circumstances of extensive existing inequalities of wealth and power?

Consider these polar views:

•Modern market democracies work to narrow social and economic inequalities over time.

•The institutions of modern market democracies work to increase economic and political inequalities; the rich and powerful become more so through their privileged positions within existing institutions.

Which of these views is correct?

John Nausieda
(Meander) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Buying Chinese Goods on 03/15/2011 10:39:40 MDT Print View

Supremacy of a Social Network
by NICHOLAS WADE • March 14, 2011 Read Later
Special Issue
Every time some human attribute is said to be unique, whether tool-making or language or warfare, biologists soon find some plausible precursor in animals that makes the ability less distinctive.
Still, humans are vastly different from other animals, however hard the difference may be to define. A cascade of events, some the work of natural selection, some just plain accidents, propelled the human lineage far from the destiny of being just another ape, down an unexpected evolutionary path to become perhaps the strangest blossom on the ample tree of life.
And what was the prime mover, the dislodged stone that set this eventful cascade in motion? It was, perhaps, the invention of weapons — an event that let human ancestors escape the brutal tyranny of the alpha male that dominated ape societies.
Biologists have little hesitation in linking humans’ success to their sociality. The ability to cooperate, to make individuals subordinate their strong sense of self-interest to the needs of the group, lies at the root of human achievement.
“Humans are not special because of their big brains,” says Kim Hill, a social anthropologist at Arizona State University1. “That’s not the reason we can build rocket ships — no individual can. We have rockets because 10,000 individuals cooperate in producing the information.”
The two principal traits that underlie the human evolutionary success, in Dr. Hill’s view, are the unusual ability of nonrelatives to cooperate — in almost all other species, only closely related individuals will help each other — and social learning, the ability to copy and learn from what others are doing. A large social network can generate knowledge and adopt innovations far more easily than a cluster of small, hostile groups constantly at war with each other, the default state of chimpanzee society.
If a shift in social behavior was the critical development in human evolution, then the answer to how humans became unique lies in exploring how human societies first split away from those of apes.
Paleoanthropologists often assume that chimp societies are a reasonably good stand-in for the ancestral ape society that gave rise to the chimp and human lineages. Living hunter-gatherers may reflect those of long ago, since humans always lived this way until the first settled societies of 15,000 years ago.
The two species’ social structure could scarcely be more different. Chimp society consists of a male hierarchy, dominated by the alpha male and his allies, and a female hierarchy beneath it. The alpha male scores most of the paternities, cutting his allies in on others. The females try to mate with every male around, so each may think he’s the father and spare her child. How did a chimplike society ever give rise to the egalitarian, largely monogamous structure of hunter-gatherer groups?
A new and comprehensive answer to this question has been developed by Bernard Chapais of the University of Montreal. Dr. Chapais is a primatologist who has spent 25 years studying monkey and ape societies. Recently he devoted four years to reading the literature of social anthropology with the goal of defining the transition between nonprimate and human societies. His book, “Primeval Kinship2,” was published in 2008.
Dr. Chapais sees the transition as a series of accidents, each of which let natural selection exploit new opportunities. Early humans began to walk on two legs because it was a more efficient way of getting around than knuckle-walking, the chimps’ method. But that happened to leave the hands free. Now they could gesture, or make tools.
It was a tool, in the form of a weapon, that made human society possible, in Dr. Chapais’s view. Among chimps, alpha males are physically dominant and can overpower any rival. But weapons are great equalizers. As soon as all males were armed, the cost of monopolizing a large number of females became a lot higher. In the incipient hominid society, females became allocated to males more equally. General polygyny became the rule, then general monogamy.
This trend led to the emergence of a critical change in sexual behavior: the replacement of the apes’ orgiastic promiscuity with the pair bond between male and female. With only one mate, for the most part, a male had an incentive to guard her from other males to protect his paternity.
________________________________________
Special Issue
(Page 2 of 2)
The pair bond was the pivotal event that opened the way to hominid evolution, in Dr. Chapais’s view. On the physiological level, having two parents around allowed the infants to be dependent for longer, a requirement for continued brain growth after birth. Through this archway, natural selection was able to drive up the volume of the human brain until it eventually reached three times that of a chimpanzee.
On the social level, the presence of both parents revealed the genealogical structure of the family, which is at least half hidden in chimp societies. A chimp knows who its mother and siblings are, because it grows up with them, but not its father or father’s relatives. So the neighboring bands to which female chimps disperse at puberty, avoiding incest, are perceived as full of strange males and treated with unremitting hostility.
In the incipient hominid line, males could recognize their sisters and daughters in neighboring bands. They could also figure out that the daughter’s or sister’s mate shared a common genetic interest in the welfare of the woman’s children. The neighboring males were no longer foes to be killed in sight — they were the in-laws.
The presence of female relatives in neighboring bands became for the first time a bridge between them. It also created a new and more complex social structure. The bands who exchanged women with each other learned to cooperate, forming a group or tribe that would protect its territory from other tribes. Though cooperation became the norm within a tribe, tribes would wage warfare just as relentlessly as chimpanzee bands.
“There is no single pressure that made us human,” Dr. Chapais said in an interview. He sees human evolution as having progressed through a series of accidents. “The fact that you can recognize patrilineal kin was not selected for, but as soon as you had that you could move forward and establish peaceful relations with other groups,” he said.
The new social structure would have induced the development of different social behaviors. “I personally am hung up on cooperation as being what really differentiates humans from nonhuman apes,” said Michael Tomasello, a developmental psychologist at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany. A system of cooperative bands “provides the kind of social infrastructure that can really get things going,” he said.
In a series of experiments comparing human and chimpanzee infants, Dr. Tomasello has shown that very young children have an urge to help others. One of these skills is what he calls shared intentionality, the ability to form a plan with others for accomplishing a joint endeavor. Children, but not chimps, will point at things to convey information, they will intuit others’ intentions from the direction of their gaze, and they will help others achieve a goal.
Early humans venturing out into the savannah from the apes’ ancestral forest refuge would have been surrounded by predators and in fierce competition for food. Cooperation may have been forced on them as a condition of existence. “Humans were put under some kind of collective pressure to collaborate in their gathering of food — they became obligate collaborators — in a way that their closest primate relatives were not,” Dr. Tomasello writes in a recent book, “Why We Cooperate.”
Humans wear the mark of their shared intentionality, he notes, in a small but significant feature — the whites of their eyes, which are three times larger than those of any other primate, presumably to help others follow the direction of gaze. Indeed, chimps infer the direction of gaze by looking at another’s head, but infants do so by watching the eyes.
So if ever a visiting Martian biologist should ask you what made your species the master of its planet, point first to your mother and all her relatives, then to the whites of your eyes, and only lastly to your prominent forehead.
________________________________________
References
1. ^Arizona State University (topics.nytimes.com) ( http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/arizona_state_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org )
2. ^Primeval Kinship (www.hup.harvard.edu) ( http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674027824 )
________________________________________

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: @ John (John Prine) & FolkFest on 03/15/2011 10:45:40 MDT Print View

Woody Guthrie and Seeger were contemporaries, and were members of the folk group 'The Weavers.' Both served in WW2. Guthrie is seen more of a supporter of workers, and is somewhat tied to the 'Dust Bowl.' Contracting Huntington's Disease in the 40's had an impact on his career. Seeger is known more as a political activist, championing many causes. Seeger at one time was a member of the American Communist Party, and Guthrie was a sympathiser, but I don't think he ever joined.

Both were Blacklisted in the 1950's during the McCarthy era. Seeger had to testify before Congress. He was convicted of Contempt of Congress (later overturned). During this period we really see a flaw in Ayn Rand, as she supported the purge and testified before Congress against many Americans. As much as I hate communism, this country HAS to let people be free to express their ideas. You fight the ideas with intellect, not jail or restristing one's right to work.

The reason I bring this up, is that it is aligned with the debates we have here over political-economic systems. During the 50's and 60's America went through the 'Red Scare' and the 'Cold War.' Americans hated communism, but many did not know "why." Not knowing the "why" is worse than accepting an idealogy that might be considered flawed.

In the early 60's there was a TV show named "Hootenanny." The show was instrumental in the folk music revival. But then the show blacklisted Seeger and other entertainers for their "ties to communism" and other unacceptable political ideals. Many folk singers boycotted the show, and in attempt to keep it alive, the producers offered to have Seeger on the show, if he signed an affidavit with many items in it (you can check the details on the Web). Seeger refused, but did urge other entertainers not to boycott the show. This is an example of the worst in America. The show soon died.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: basic institutions and democratic equality on 03/15/2011 10:48:23 MDT Print View

Consider these polar views:

•Modern market democracies work to narrow social and economic inequalities over time.

•The institutions of modern market democracies work to increase economic and political inequalities; the rich and powerful become more so through their privileged positions within existing institutions.

Which of these views is correct?


Both can be correct -- at different times.

For me, I am not all that concerned about economic equality. Reward people who find success in working clever / working hard -- so long as:

1. We have rules that ensure fair competition and labor safeguards.
2. We have a good public education system that ensures children of the underclass can still compete and excel -- if they choose to.
3. We have a basic welfare system that ensures those who truly can't work are still taken care of.
4. We have a HIGH estate tax rate. After a lifetime of achievements and rewards -- methinks it's good for BOTH society and the heirs of the wealthy that we level the playing field again.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Worst in America? on 03/15/2011 11:12:07 MDT Print View

"Many folk singers boycotted the show... This is an example of the worst in America. The show soon died."

It doesn't matter whether it's a religious or secular setting, but so long as people hold to the simplistic view that there is but ONE TRUTH AND ONE UNIVERSAL MORALITY, then there will be countless opportunities for manipulation and exploitation.

Why? The issue isn't in the subject of truth at all. It is in the way those people have chosen to learn and view the world around them. Too often, the minute a person is convinced that he's GOT IT, learning ceases! And even worse, pride often takes over. He (or she) begins to wonder why everybody else is still failing to grasp what is now so obvious and straightforward -- and then wonders what he can do to "help". And when people refuse his "help"? Then they obviously deserve to be shunned -- or worse!

Edited by ben2world on 03/15/2011 11:19:27 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: basic institutions and democratic equality on 03/15/2011 11:16:42 MDT Print View

George,

We need to define "democratic equality?" Where did the concept come from? Hint: Study John Rawls' Egalitarianism.

What is equality? For this discussion (regarding people) it is a political idea: Equal in the law.

Can people be equal? Yes their individual rights can be equal.

Can all people be equal in nature? No. Some are smarter, stronger, healthier, etc.

Can society create equality? Only in the political sense.

Can society serve the needs of every member (100%)? Only by giving each member individual freedom. Any other action cannot meet the needs or wants of 100% of the group.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Re: basic institutions and democratic equality on 03/15/2011 11:29:06 MDT Print View

Only by giving each member individual freedom, Nick?

My thoughts: If a society wants its individual members to show initiative, then safeguarding their individual freedom and property has been shown effective. OTOH, considering that some individuals are not only smarter, stronger and healthier -- but also more ruthless -- than others, it behooves a society to circumscribe the same individual freedoms to an appropriate degree.

And what is 'appropriate degree'?? The devil is again in the details, Nick. Given the countless variables within and without each and every human society -- it's no wonder that there are just about as many law codes in the world as there are societies! No, learned and thinking men (and women) working hard at solving societies' problems do NOT all come to one and the same Law Code.

Interestingly, pick the smallest ecosystem you wish -- one basic set of circumstances -- and Life will still present multiple thousands of solutions (which we call species) in its attempt to "solve" the issue of survival.

Edited by ben2world on 03/15/2011 11:34:42 MDT.