Tom

Cute kids, nice that you're getting outdoors with them - mine are demanding family bike rides every Sunday, which is a good development: 6 year old did about 15ks on a cheap, heavy single-speed kids bike a month ago, and didn't whinge, which did impress me.


Arapiles

Father of three Japanese-Australian kids, who I suspect are roughly the same age as yours.

"In general the Japanese don't use gaijin as a derogatory term (Japanese has very few curse words or words to denigrate someone face on)."

Hmmm ... I always took "baka gaijin" to be less than friendly. The Japanese have terms for lots of races and a lot of them can be used abusively, despite any protestations to the contrary.

food for thought...

Something that really bothers me is the "tribal mentality." That is, we (Americans at least), always want to label someone outside of our "tribe." And until we as a society get past our tribal affliations (race, creed, religion, sexual orientation, etc.), we will never rid ourselves of descrimination or become truly diverse.

Think about some of these examples:

"I was talking to this black guy at the hardware store..."

"This hispanic kid did..."

"The Asian lady at..."

"That white dude..."

"That gaay guy over there said..."

"That Muslim guy..."

To me the video is a sad, sad commentary of America.

Good points, Nick. But it's most definitely not only America. If it were no one in the rest of the world would be fighting wars. It's the pigeonholing that really messes people up, on both sides of whatever fence. Some of the people in my family, especially those with African-American backgrounds, and nearly always those who are "mixed", got really, really messed up.it's very difficult to help them because how do you fight an idea in someone's head that pertains to their perception of who they are and their sense of self-worth? How do you reconcile two things inside you that seem to conflict?

One of the things about backpacking that I so love is that wild places are great levelers. Social stereotypes no longer work, and what each person needs is whittled down to the same basic requirements. Anything else is baggage.

But, Nick, there is still room for laughter. Not >at< people, but together. All this categorizing each other is pretty absurd, when you think about it.

Not saying there's any right or wrong answer here... but the above doesn't necessarily bother me. To me, It mostly depends on the speaker's intention (e.g. tone).

Say we are in a strictly one-race society -- and you are talking about a particular person in the hardware store. Well, you have to pick something to draw our attention, right? Yeah, I met this 'tall thin' dude at the hardware store and....

You have a point, Ben. I also think there is value and beauty in diversity and difference. After all, there are differences. You might as well not say "women" and "men" either, if we're going down the path of not categorizing anyone.

Edited by butuki on 02/28/2011 20:06:17 MST.

agree totally...


"there is value and beauty in diversity and difference"

Fear confuses and blinds people so that they neither benefit nor see.

"there are differences"

Pretending we are all the same is merely pretending but leads to real conflict.

On the other hand, awareness of differences becomes understanding which generates respect. Now we have harmony.

Edited by gmatthews on 02/28/2011 19:54:42 MST.

Well done gents.

"You might as well not say "women" and "men" either, if we're going down the path of not categorizing anyone."

Important to note that there is a difference between categorizing people and labeling people, and more than just a semantic difference.

So it's just the 4 of you then? No wonder I see so little color on the trail. J/K

Ken, the overwhelming majority of people on this site are white males. And there are far more white women than non-white people here, too. You're just not going to see a lot of us out walking the hills or checking out backpacking sites, let alone UL backpacking sites. But yeah, that's why you don't see too many people of other ethnicities than your own. That's what the thread is talking about, and the sense of absence of non-white people is exactly part of the feeling that you get when you do go out walking.

ANother thing you may not notice is that a lot of people from other countries don't post. The Japanese, for instance. They are definitely here and reading the forums everyday, but because of the language differences and the sense that things are almost all oriented towards Americans, very few of them are going to attempt to join the conversations. If you've been around a while you may remember that quite a few Japanese (and others, like one person from Egypt, another from India, still another from Chile) used to post here. But you don't see them anymore. The only reason I am still posting is that I grew up in the States and think like an American, plus, of course, my first language is English, so it's easy to join the discussions, but for others it's too difficult to keep up, plus there is the constant repetition of threads like the concurrent one about Chinese manufacturing. Who wants to be part of a community where they never have anything good to say about your people or culture?

"Who wants to be part of a community where they never have anything good to say about your people or culture?"

Very well said. But I do wonder if sites native to non-Americans have much good to say about the U.S.? It's those divisions again, the us against them that continues to impede understanding and acceptance.

But I do wonder if sites native to non-Americans have much good to say about the U.S.?

Also very well said. I can't read or speak Chinese so I don't know what they say in general, but quite often on popular English forums, especially newspapers, you will come across huge venomous threads started by Chinese attacking all things Western and American. I'm sure it happens with lots of other forums and people all around the world. In most cases those making the comments don't know what they are talking about, since many of those people have never been abroad or have never met one of those people they are criticizing. It's rare for things to get like that here. If it did I wouldn't be here. In some ways the internet is great at bringing down those long-established cultural barriers, but in another way, because of the anonymity and facelessness, it is easy to conjure up your own ideas about those you are talking to.

I prefer not to enter that other ongoing thread about Chinese goods, but one comment that Ben made that I thought was very relevant and very important was that in order for people to understand a place and people and to be able to say anything authoritative and relevant about them, you need to visit those places and meet those people, talk to them, see how they live. Making blanket statements about a people from having read a book or magazine article about them just doesn't cut it. I think Ben was right: a lot of western notions about China are very outdated, hailing from back in the 70's and 80's. If you visited China today I think a lot of people would be astounded.

I studied architecture when I was a graduate student. My focus was on third world development and green architecture. These studies in addition to my heritage as a Filipino and my visits as a kid there and other places such as China and Pakistan, gave me what I thought was a better understanding of what problems the third world faced and what abject poverty was all about. Then, in 1991 I traveled through the Philippines for two months, and at the invitation of a famous writer there I was taken to stay for a week in the slums of Tondo, in particular the now-closed down site of Smokey Mountain, that gigantic landfill that people lived and scavenged on. What I saw and experienced shattered any smug ideas I had about being able to save the world or pretend to know what destitution is. It was utterly, irreversibly heartbreaking. Unlike anything I had ever seen in the States (I have very poor relatives in my family, from the Bronx, Brookline, and Harlem, plus I lived in Roxbury in Boston for a spell). Even today if I let any of those images enter my head I break down weeping. But the amazing thing was that all the people I met, every last eking-a-life-out-of-nothing person, from toddlers in rags to old people smoking in the alleyways, was alive. I mean, they were struggling to live, making the best they possibly could out of a really, really bad situation. And they smiled and laughed all the time, rarely complained. It was such a stark contrast to the constant whining that you hear from the States or the apathy and resignation you see everywhere in Japan. That trip fundamentally changed the paradigm I had been deluding myself with all that time.

My point is, you can't see the world for what it is just by reading about it, and you can't change your prejudices and ingrained attitudes until something outside of yourself radically contrasts to your suppositions. What you have in your head is not what the real world is all about.

Doug, yes, it's those divisions. But, oh, those divisions can be hard to see inside yourself!

I don't know Miguel. I see more and more Europeans here. Backpacking and especially UL backpacking are primarily an American pastime. Also you assume that I am 100% white. I think you are correct that the language barrier more than any thing else that keeps non English persons from posting here. Politics aside. Everyone everywhere complains about that. Plus the fact that UL gear is practically non-exsitant here(compared to heavy gear) let alone the rest of the world. Makes it a tough sell.
I do see more and more women out there on the trail too.

Granted everyone need to get over the fact that we look different. We are all on the same ride around the Sun.

Also you assume that I am 100% white.

There you go. My own prejudices directing how I see and say things. And exactly what Doug is referring to. If I incurred insult, please forgive me.

Yes, there are more non-whites and women getting out there. That's the encouraging thing. The Internet has a lot to do with this, because the information is getting out there now and anyone has access to it, whereas in the past it was more closeted away in special interest groups. Or it could be that there were always more people out there doing the hiking, bicycling, canoeing, sailing, etc, but without something like the Internet it was simply not possible to see it all on a grander scale.

But that doesn't excuse the fact that the numbers of non-whites and women compared to the white men is still unnaturally small. There shouldn't have to be any special effort by anyone to "promote" getting outdoors for non-white people and women; the encouragement and assumptions should already have been in place so that non-white people and women can go out there without anxiety or misgivings or feeling out of place. I shouldn't have to feel any need to bring up a thread like this or to express the these feelings (certainly white people don't generally feel any need whatsoever to talk about their "whiteness" and whether or not they are welcome or relevant in an activity such as hiking), that video should actually not be funny, and my African-American/ Filipino father should never have had to feel that "Going hiking is a white person's activity. I don't feel comfortable with it."

But that's what we have to live with and try to make something better out of. That I can bring up this topic in these forums and actually get well-sonsidered, intelligent responses, well, that's a huge step forward!

FWIW I did not find that video humorous. Sad reflection on society. Bet a white guy wrote it. And Miguel, I took no offense. Assumption is a Bitch.

...

Hmm.

Ah! Subtlety!

Edited by butuki on 03/05/2011 22:21:56 MST.

Miguel,
Glad that you participate in the forums and provide a different viewpoint. I haven't actualy heard a negative view (maybe some limited views, but so is mine, and that doesn't mean WRONG views...just different).

We are all different.

I suspect that being an ultralight backpacker makes us all part of a very small minority, regardless of color, race, religion, sex, and sexual preference. I thought that was what this site was all about...at least that's what I'm paying for.

I'm prejudice against all of the "traditional backpackers" out there...forget about whether you are black, white, Asian, rancher, or sheep herder.

Tom

On Friday Oprah had a show about this. An African American park ranger in Yosemite wrote a letter to Oprah about how more African Americans need to get out and camp and see the national parks. So Oprah ends up going to Yosemite with a friend and find another black person in the park and end up making a big deal about it and takes pictures and everything. It reminded of this thread so I thought I would share. There is a part 2 to the show on Monday.

Hilarious.

Thanks for the link.