Seems like there has been a simultaneous universal switch by manufacturers, to a different type of titanium. WHY? Just curious if anyone some information on this.

John, what are you referring to here? Are you saying that the current standard 6AL-4V alloy is being replaced by something different? Could you give us some specifics as to what you are alluding to?

You need to be a shade more specific about what alloys you are talking about. I do monitor titanium progress a bit, and so far I have not seen any signs of a change. The global production and consumption of 6Al-4V is huge, and growing.

That said, there are other alloys used for some things, to be sure.

cheers

Sorry! Question is a tad vague, ambiguous and lacking in foundation and, certainly not technical. But two details may help you address what I perceive is a "universal switch."
#1. Appearance: new stuff sold by BPL and Brasslite is shinny and the old dull, gray stuff formerly sold by BPL, Vargo, Brasslite, Backcountry and Tibetan is hard to find now. Brasslite and BPL sell pots that resemble the appearance of the Evernew pots.
#2. I saw a review by a UK blogger of what looked like shinny Evernew Ti pots and he ascribed the appearance difference to the material being "cold pressed" versus some other common process which I fail to recall at this time.

Gary: Can't answer the technical specs. I do not the have background that allows me to soak up info like this unless I am very devoted to the subject. As I pointed in my OP, this is a curiosity at this point.

Roger: delighted that you follow titanium products with a more critical eye than most of us and hopeful that you may have some info. Frankly, the reason queried this to begin with was the possibility that there was some health issues with the older process.

Edited by johnk on 02/11/2011 08:30:58 MST.

Hi John,

It's the case shiny versus dull finish is more related to the forming and finishing processes than the alloy used. In my experience, a smoother (shinier) finish (e.g., Evernew) is easier to keep clean than the dull stuff (Vargo et al). Interestingly, my lightest-gauge Ti cookware is all dull finish while the semi-gloss stuff is a bit thicker. FWIW any flavor of Ti can be polished to a bright finish, but it's labor-intensive (expensive) and I'll guess that very thin material is very difficult to polish without damaging the piece.

As to potential health issues there are none, so don't give it another thought.

Cheers,

Rick

Hey Rick, Thanks. Appreciate it. I won't give it another thought. The mass movement of most all sellers from one to another did give me pause.

Hi John

Ah - surface finish. Yeah, that can change for a number of reasons, with very little to do with the alloy used. Fwiiw, freshly machined titanium is quite shiny. But after different sorts of heat treatment the surface changes colour.

Exactly what you have to do to get that old grey colour/finish I do not know. I suspect heat treatment under certain gas conditions. Obviously forming pots etc is going to be done HOT, so maybe they have changed the gas surrounds? For an analogy, think of argon-arc welding and similar.

Could you 'cold-press' titanium into a pot shape? I can always be mistaken, but I have really strong doubts. The forces required would be spectacular. Not sure what material you would use for the dies either. Yes, you can cold-press some Ti alloys into fairly flat lid shapes. I am cold-pressing Ti into a very simple flattish shape myself.

Hum - could one use a series of progressive dies plus some rolling, with the softest available Ti alloy (actually, pure Ti)? Maybe technically possible, but the capital investment required would be huge. Dunno. Interesting.

Cheers

Your UK Blogger buddy was talking about Cold Isostatic Press, I believe. I dont think there would be much of a difference in finish between that and Hot Isostatic Pressing, but I don't really know. Any metallurgy outside of steel is beyond my realm of knowledge.

The dull color that the OP is referring to on the old BPL pots is caused by sand blasting the surface of the pot to get a uniform finish. The shinier stuff, just started out looking better in the first place, and was drawn in nicer dies.

ALL Ti pots are made from comercially pure titanium. The proccess for building titanium pots is called "drawing" it is done both progressively, and in a single stage manner, depending on depth to diameter ratios. This drawing is done both hot and cold, depending on the manufacture, and the drawing process.

My choice of materials for cold drawing ti pots would be carbide at the sizing interfaces, less lube, No galling, nice finish. But I have used ground PH 4140 with good results also.

Hi Josh

> My choice of materials for cold drawing ti pots would be carbide at the sizing interfaces,
My mind boggles at the thought of the cost of a carbide punch and a couple of carbide dies. Curiosity asks what sort of $$ might we be talking about for a 1.5 L pot?

Cheers

"Curiosity asks what sort of $$ might we be talking about for a 1.5 L pot?"

Don't worry about what it costs. Just think what it would be worth!

--B.G.--

Where is all this titanium coming from - is it domestically produced or is it imported material? Is the ore imported and processed into rod and sheet goods domestically? I assume the grade of titanium for military purposes is different than the grades used in outdoor equipment. Is there a difference in the source?

The new BPL pots are made by Evernew in Japan (I assume). The older pots were made by the same company that made the Tibetan pots in China.

AGG describes their new Evernew Ultra-Light as 0.3mm. How much thicker are the old Evernew pots? Any reports on how well the Ultra-Light stand up to the hazards of trail cooking?

Rodger

You would not need carbide "punches", and you would only need multiple "dies" if you were progressivly forming. Just one die for the final deep draw would require carbide. Price would all depend on the diameter of said 1.5 liter pot. The whole die would not, and should not, be solid carbide. Just a donut of carbide that sizes the diameter, and has the draw radius would need to be carbide. The raw piece of carbide could cost only few hundred, to a few thousand, depending on the diameter of the pot. The real cost is in the labor and skill required to cut and grind the carbide.

Marc

If you are talking about outdoor goods like pots and utensils, most of the products, and most of the raw titanium is coming from China. China is the worlds #1 titanium producer. Titanium is also being processed and milled here in the US. The term grade when applied to titanium, groups titanium into groups of comercially pure, and alpha/alpha-beta alloys. The quality of titanium used for military applications vs ti used for outdoor gear is the same. Only the medical industry has there own sub-grades of alloys.

Bradford

While Evernew pots are made in Japan, my money is that it is Chinese titanium.

Steve

The old evernew stuff was and some I believe still is .4mm. The old BPL stuff is both .3mm and .4mm. Our 550 pots are .3mm and hold up just fine. I have also used several of the Evernew pots that are .3mm and they hold just fine as well.

Those pots are seriously drawn? I thought most ti parts like that ("cast" looking parts) were titanium powder pressed into shape then sintered. Thinking about it, this woiuld account for the normally blasted look of the materials also, as it wouldn't be pressed into something super smooth.

All this chat got me shopping and I quickly found Titanium Joe, who surely can fill our titanium sheet needs. I've not bothered to translate thicknesses to metric so don't know which to compare against. They do list a scattering of manufacturers.

CP sheet (straight Ti)

http://www.titaniumjoe.com/other%20titanium%20alloy%20sheet.htm

6AL-4V, the greatest selection.

http://www.titaniumjoe.com/6al4v%20sheet.htm

More-exotic alloys.

http://www.titaniumjoe.com/other%20titanium%20alloy%20sheet.htm

Hard to imagine how we can buy $25 Ti pots, based on material cost alone. I've never spoken to anyone who works with sheet, but a friend who's machined titanium tells me it has significant challenges. Likewise, bike frame makers tell me the tube sets aren't much more expensive than other materials but the cutting, prep, welding and finishing are hugely labor intensive, making the finished piece much costier.

For certain there's much more around than twenty years ago, when I first started finding small Ti bike parts. They came from Italy with metal from former Soviet sources.

Nostrovia,

Rick

It is entirely possible that the titanium in your modern cook pot had a former life about twenty years ago, flying across the sky at Mach 2.5.

--B.G.--

Hi Josh

Yes, I know how one would make a carbide punch and die. I guess the 'best' method would be to form the doughnuts from the raw materials, rather than try to machine them out of solid.
To explain a bit more: I am running a CNC machine and I fabricate a lot of custom tooling from (mainly) K20, brazing and a diamond cup wheel. That, or HSS-Co and a CBN cup wheel.

> most of the raw titanium is coming from China. China is the worlds #1 titanium producer.
Funny about that - it used to be from Russia. So DoD had to buy the raw materials for their fighter planes from their nominal foes... Amusing for someone from the outside.

Cheers

Hi Rick

> I quickly found Titanium Joe, who surely can fill our titanium sheet needs
I have been dealing very happily with him for 3 - 4 years now. His stuff runs about 10% of the price asked by the Australian importers. I'm serious.

> I've never spoken to anyone who works with sheet, but a friend who's machined titanium
> tells me it has significant challenges.
Not true: you have spoken with me a fair bit ... :-)
Machining Ti is very much like machining some stainless steel alloys. Do it properly and the results are very nice. Forming sheet 6Al-4V - see my articles on Ti snow pegs for instance.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 02/12/2011 02:02:42 MST.