Here is my normal 3 season list. I know that the rain jacket is heavy, thinking about adding a hood to my myog tarp to solve that problem. My pack has been heavily modified and is about as light as I can make it, not bad for 50 bucks, but I would really like an MLD burn when I can afford it.

Mike Hopkins UL Gear List
(3 Season Ontario, 3 day/2 Night, -5 C and above)
# Item: Weight (oz)

Clothing Worn: 21.55
1. Helly LS poly pro T-shirt 5.10
2. MEc Soft shell Pants 12.50
3. Mec active polypro Shorts 2.70
4 .Mini Crew 1.25
Other Items Worn/Carried: 32.80
6. Watch 0.90
9.Camera w/battery & card (in pocket) 4.35
10. Photocopy of Map (in pocket) 0.75
11. Salomon XA pro 3d ultra 26.80
Extra Clothing: 25.15/21.15
12. Arcteryx Alpha SL 12
14. TNFDown Jacket 10/pati cap 4 8
15. Burton Fleece Gloves 1.50
16. Generic Fleece Cap 1.40
17. Mini Crew 1.25

Packing: 16.40
18. Mec Alpinelite 30 Backpack 14.00
19. MYOG SmallStuff Sack 0.20
20. MYOG small Stuff Sack ( tarp) 0.20
21. Mec Med linear Sack 2.00

Shelter & Sleeping: 29.6
22. BPL Cacoon 60 Quilt 10
23. 3/8" Sleeping pad - 38" trimmed 3.45
24. MYOG SILnylon Tarp 8x5 6.5
25. MYOG BUG Bivy 5.95
26. MSR NEDDLE Stakes (x8) 3.00
27. MLD 27 liteline guy Line&locks 0.70

Cooking & Hydration: 7.2
28. Evernew .90L Water Bottle 0.90
29. Platypus 1 L bottle 0.90
30. Katadyn Micropur, Purifications Tabs (6/day x 3 = 18) 0.45
31. Bear Bag (girz line 40' + Biner) 1.10
32. Fuel Bottle (4 oz cap.) 0.70
34. Molson Canadian pot and lid 1.2
35. Pepsi Alcohol Stove 0.50
36. wind screen 0.50
37. Dr Bonner's Camp Soap (micro-dropper) 0.10
38. Bic Mini Lighter with duct tape 0.60
39. Short Handled Spork 0.25

The list got really screwed up when I pasted it, sorry about that. Also I think some of the numbers are probably off. Most should be accurate based on other peoples gear lists and some scale use. I added some extra oz. though to compensate because I realize manufactures claimed weights are usually off.
I really want to try and get my base weight under 5 pounds, so any help is appreciated!

EDITED TO MAKE READABLE

Edited by Hopkins on 02/10/2011 18:44:41 MST.

lighter pack. like a zpacks blast
ditch the bug bivy. head net.

Here is the rest/ the part that is directly after what is actually readable....

Essentials: 6.1
40. Compass(attached to pack).2
41. Mesh stuff sack for cooking .30
45.car key 0.9
46.Petzl E lite .95
47.spare contacts 0.5
49.Toothbrush .2
50.TP 1.5
51.toothpaste .2
52.gauze pads and ointmint .10
53.match book 0.15
55. sunscreen 0.20
56.ibprophen/ advil .30
57.Deet .2
59.razor blade .2
60.Ziplock bag 0.20

Consumables: 84.00
57 Total Food (2.5 days) 48.00
59 Fuel - 4 oz 4.00
60 Water - 1 liter 32.00

1 Total Items Worn/Carried (lbs.) 3.45
2 Total Base Weight (lbs.) 5.46/5.21
3 Total Weight of Consumables (lbs.) 5.25
4 Total Gear Weight Worn+Packed (1)+(2) 9.22
5 Total Carried Pack Weight (2)+(3) 11.02
6 Total Skin Out Weight (1)+(2)+(3) 14.47

Edited by Hopkins on 02/10/2011 18:45:38 MST.

TP
filter/tabs (aquamira in microdroppers)
car key (hide near car)
toothpaste (baking soda or nothing)


- also, do you need both the alpha jacket and TNF down?
- ditto, what robert said.



also, concerning MSR Needle stakes:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=2918

2 mini crews for 3 days?

Why do you need a 5 lb base weight?

Ditch the stove, pot, windscreen and stuff bag. Go cookless.
Carry a ziplock container instead to rehydrate food while hiking.
Ditch Petzl e-lite for a Photon stick a dime size piece of velcro to the photon and your hat for hands free light

A Gossamer Gear Murmur would cut your pack weight by half & is able to handle a 3 or 4 day gear set year round for me.

A lot of those suggestions seem really good. I bring the down jacket for sleeping with because the quilt isn't warm enough for -5 type temps. I prefer a warm dinner for the same reasons. A warm meal is just awesome, going cookless is an easy way to go sub 5lbs though. I would love a new pack and the blast is a good suggestion, but I am going to stay with this one until I can afford a new one or can make my own.
My reasons for going sub 5lbs are kind of pointless I suppose. My main reason is probably the best. Last summer I went 100 kms in 19 hours total walking time. I feel that if I lower my base weight I could travel further or the same distance using less energy or in less time. It allows me to actually get into "wilderness" type situations even if I only have a spare weekend. Going along with this It makes trips that are usually week long become a lot shorter. I don't seem to have a lot of time for extended trips, so I like to pack in as much as I can in the time I can. The other reason is kind of shameful, I just like to see how light I can go and remain safe and comfortable. Its a bad reason, or at least not the best reason, but it works for me.
Thanks everyone
Mike

Chris Wallace
(simplespirit) - BPL Staff - MLIFE

Locale: NE GA / W NC

NEW Re: Help me reach a sub 5lb base weight on 02/10/2011 19:22:43 MST

Why do you need a 5 lb base weight?


WOW Chris, you're a BPL Staff member
This is the sort of comment I would expect on WhiteBlaze not BPL

Try offering the OP solutions or say nothing at all.

Edited by JMathes on 02/10/2011 20:13:25 MST.

Why anyone would want to go 5# unless its a survival pack is beyond me, but go cuben, cuben, cuben and some M50.

Cuben pack
Cuben liner
Cuben tarp/poncho

Sub 3oz bivy.
Someone here built one. Cant remember who.

Cold food

"Try offering the OP solutions or say noting at all."

JJ: Perhaps Chris asked the question so he could tailor his advice in some way?

Todd

Mike,

I like your reasons to do 5lb!! Nice list, too. I won't even try to contemplate the kind of distance you can cover in a day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow.

What do you use for a pillow?

Todd

Edited by funnymoney on 02/10/2011 20:26:06 MST.

JJ, in Chris' defense, I don't think he was questioning the validity of going <5 lb; He was wondering the OP's motivation for doing so. The primary difference is tone, and textual communication strips that from our words in a way that makes us all sound terribly rude at times.

-Daniel

Chris Wallace
(simplespirit) - BPL Staff - MLIFE

Locale: NE GA / W NC

NEW Re: Help me reach a sub 5lb base weight on 02/10/2011 19:22:43 MST

Why do you need a 5 lb base weight?

This makes me miss the days of old with BPL staff members who actually helped the UL movement & backpacked. Now we have staff members who are snarky, and post "Yoga" as gear of the year when they are not too busy posting "heavy" over other gear people are carrying while actually hiking.

Best of luck BPL, you will definitely need it if this continues.

You might want to take a look at Steve Evans gear lists at Suluk 46, both for ideas on getting to your goal of 5 lbs. as well as for formatting your list. Also, you've got a 60' quilt for lows you say reach 23'. I'd definitely upgrade that before spending money on a new pack.

http://www.suluk46.com/adventure.html

Here's a guy that did it with an ion.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=13855

Speaking of the old days..

SuperUltraLight

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00138.html

And for when 5 is just too much

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/super_ultralight_cascades_sub_4_backpacking.html


And Chris W. tisk, tisk...

Daniel was correct. I'm all for helping people out, but I'm not going to tell someone to get rid of a bunch of equipment without them having a good reason for doing so. If you've never even gone out with a 10 lb base, jumping straight to sub 5 could prove quite disastrous, and cause someone to hate backpacking forever. I'd prefer the OP enjoy himself, and his time in the Wilderness.

Back to the OP, I would not advise trying to go sub 5 in twenty degree temps. Having said that, if you're still interested I suggest Alan Dixon's site. He has a page on going sub 3 base in temps to freezing. Pay special attention to what he says about doing it, and what was necessary. His choices to throw out certain items worked because of where he was trekking. They may not be doable in your location.

Edited by simplespirit on 02/11/2011 03:51:48 MST.

Thanks for the tips! As far as my sleeping system goes, your are totally right, the quilt isn't very warm, but paired with my down jacket, toque, gloves, fresh socks, hiking pants, and tarp pitched quite low I am fine getting through nights of -5 at the very limit, I prefer to hover around 0 however. I was not offended in anyway by the BPL staff member asking me why I wanted to go sub 5. I think that's a very important question. I had a look over all of those gear lists you posted and some of them seem like they can be quite helpful. If anyone has specific places where I could easily lose weight at a small cost I would love to hear them. I just can't afford to go cuben, or buy a pack right now. I was also thinking of stuffing some down into my synthetic quilt (keeping the synthetic insulation in too). Would this just be a pointless exercise and waste of down? Any ideas about that would be awesome.
Thanks again!

"getting through nights of -5 at the very limit"

The "getting through" part of your statement bothers me.
I guess the issue is there is no margin for error.

I would use your current quilt in warmer weather and try to find an
Ultra 20 for colder weather.

I would skip adding down and just save up for an properly rated bag
or quilt.

Edited by tammons on 02/11/2011 07:02:24 MST.

Use sticks instead of stakes.

I didn't see sunglasses? Use the roll-up ones from eye doctor.

Carry a whistle.

Edited by AndyF on 02/11/2011 08:22:56 MST.

I can't add anything to the thread except to say that a 5lb base weight is incredible and quite frankly, kind of exciting. I certainly can't get there but if someone else can then great - I love to read about it.

I'm with ya, David!!!!

I guess what I mean by "getting through nights of -5 at the very limit" can be a little confusing. -5 is the max I can sleep comfortably with this sleep system, but I try not to push it to that limit. I.e I don't take this if I know for certain that is the avg. night time temp I am going to encounter, because than I don't have a back up. If the avg. temp and the forecast for the region I am travelling in is hovering around 0 C at night than I will take this system, knowing that the temp could go a bit bellow that, down to -5 C for example. Saying that, it is possible for it to go below -5C, weather is ever changing and unpredictable, and in those cases I know how to stay warm, like getting out of bed and going for a run and getting some food in me ect ect. I only have it labelled for down to -5 because I have taken it to those temps and been fine, but don't want to push it more than that. Maybe it should be labelled to 0C instead?

Ditching to down and getting a warmer sleeping bag may be a good option, but I feel like it isn't as diverse or multi use... maybe thats the wrong word, but you probably get idea. Perhaps a slightly warmer bag, and a lighter down jacket would be a better option when I have the money. What do people think about stuffing my synthetic quilt with down from thru hiker?

I always carry a whistle on me, and there is one of the whistle buckles on the sternum strap of my pack, just in case. Sun glasses aren't on there, but they should be on my items worn, if I am in a heavily forested area they may be left behind. Thanks for the help everyone
Mike

Edited by Hopkins on 02/11/2011 09:38:13 MST.

I have backpacked between 20 and 100 nights per year over the past five or six years. Before that I was a four or five nights per year type of backpacker. In 2005 I started pairing down my weight and did a 200 mile hike in a lightweight style (average daily mileage 18). By 2007 I was into the ultralight weight range and took an ultralight kit on a 1,200 mile thru-hike with a daily average of 20miles. In 2008 I finalized my my first SUL kit and did some hikes with it.

A number of good resources for looking into what other hikers have had success with are posted above. I have had success with my sub-five pound list but it has only worked for me on the warmest of nights or at lower elevations where I can trust the temperatures.

Insulation seems to be the one thing my SUL and near-SUL gear lists don't have enough of. For this reason I have backed off the sub-five list and prefer to carry around eight pounds of gear on my trips now. I can use an eight pound gear list just as easily on an overnighter as I can on a 2,500 mile thru-hike. It's pretty cool how versatile a list of what is still VERY little weight can be.

I think that finding your way down to and being able to safely use a SUL gear kit is an excellent goal. Once there you have the option to realize you can easily add back to your list two, three, or four pounds of safety, comfort, et al and still be hauling one of the lightest packs of anyone else you're camping with. Now that's the freedom of ultralight.

"I think that finding your way down to and being able to safely use a SUL gear kit is an excellent goal. Once there you have the option to realize you can easily add back to your list two, three, or four pounds of safety, comfort, et al and still be hauling one of the lightest packs of anyone else you're camping with. Now that's the freedom of ultralight."

Excelent Post!! Yeah, that is pretty much my feelings. I struggled with getting my gear small and light, but never quite hit the SUL range for anything longer than an overnight on a fishing trip. Other than that, I just added stuff back that was more comfort driven. Full bag, rather than half bag...it just works better when I get an unexpected cold night. But it adds another 10oz. Same for my shirt. I used to figure I could get by with a 12oz down sweater, it works, but during the rain and for so-so days, it is easier to have a light weight fleece...another 11oz. A 5' tarp was OK, but a 9' tarp was a lot drier, another 8oz. I added stuff back till I am now at between 9 and 11 pounds, base. Most trips of 5 nights are easy with less than 20 pounds, even the ADK High Peaks doing a Bear Ball.

I did a High peaks trip with two others last year and came back with 15 pounds, including trail garbage, shelter, water treatment, some extra food and a bear ball for everybody. They still carried about ten pounds more than I did. They ARE learning, though. When my brother-in-law went with me the first time (5 years ago,) he carried a 43 pound pack. This year he was only about ten pounds heavier than I was.

Mike, Sounds like you are getting lots of good advice. Since a number of items look similar to mine I was wondering if you are using my spreadsheet. Would love to know if someone is actually using the thing. If not here is the a link to it.

LytW8_Gear_Lists

If you download the spreadsheet it has tabs for transition (~12 lb), basic UL (7 lbs), and advanced (5 lb). The transition still uses a tent. The basic is tarp but gear from gear from REI & Backcountry, while the advanced list requires you to buy from cottage gear makers.

I am the Ion 5 lb guy linked to earlier. As Chris points out its important to know what you are trying to do before doing it (I liked your response) and its also important to recognize that its not just about buying new gear. More importantly its about aquiring new skills. To do my first 5 lb trip I studied and practiced and read alot to prepare. It was also a journey that started went from 25 to 14 to 12 to 7 to 5 lb trips. I think the most impressive part about the original 5 pound list was it did not include any cottage gear. Ion for pack, montbell thermal sheet for bag, montbell drytech bivy, golite poncho tarp, etc. I still didnt know enough about the cottage shops to buy gear from them at that time.

Since then I have experimented with a lot of cottage gear and now use my own MYOG gear for most of what I do. I am similar to Sam in the I move to a 6.5 lb kit for sub freezing temps. My summer kit (40 degree +) is actually closer to 4.5 lbs. But both include a GPS.

You have all the right items listed. I would suggest making sure you know how to use each item. I like to travel far and solo and in doing so you don't have any room for error. Its just you and if you don't know how to use something or forget something it can turn out not so good.

If you are still looking to drop weight I really recommend Ryan J's chapter 15 of Lightweight Backpacking and Camping (article version available online). I'm certain I have read this chapter 20-30 times. I think it is the most amazing piece of work ever done for backpacking.

Your best opportunities to drop weight cheaply might be first with the pack. Probably the cheapest options are a zpacks zero or GG murmur. If you can find an Ion you can probably use it. If you can get the cash I think the best is the MLD burn or prophet. If you sew consider a Ray Jardine pack.

The other place to save weight is in the bag (if you want lower temps), but this gets expensive. My "best" bag from a weight to warm ratio is my Nunatak custom ghost weighing in at 15.55 oz capabale of 20 degrees (extra down, custom sizing, .8 oz pertex). But this is a heavy price.

Next you may want to consider a different jacket, my MB UL down inner has been amazing, kept me warm on 20 degree mornings. Another MYOG option is the Thru-hiker kinsman pullover. This is one great sythetic jacket if you can sew, I love mine. Lastly you might want to consider changing approaches to a poncho tarp. If you do this you can swtich out rain gear for only a winshirt. You can save several ounces this way. Might want to consider the ID silponcho or Golite Poncho tarp.

Best of luck,
Jamie

Edited by jshortt on 02/11/2011 16:49:39 MST.

You caught me Jamie, I did base my gear list off your list originally. I usesd the one from your article originally and than switched to one of the ones on your website. Judging from the rest of your post I should provide some background.

I started backpacking about 12 years ago. I have been trying to lighten my weight for about 6 years, and found backpackinglight.com about four years ago, I think after reading an article in backpacker about ultralight backpacking. Thats when I started browsing these forms and using its tips to lighten my pack significantly. Three years ago I bought "the book". I can't remember if I read the chapter on SUL or saw your sub 5 list but I was inspired. Either way I have read that chapter,and the book for that matter many times. I have also read your articles about your journey to lightweight a few times as well, good stuff. Around that time I got a membership to the site, but I had to let it expire this year because I couldn't afford the 20 bucks right now.

I have been working on my system all a long and trying different things on each trip. I have had between an 9 and 6 pound base weight for almost two years now. I feel I truly am ready for a 5 pound base weight. I know how to use the gear I have and am competent in any situations I face.
This form also inspired me to really experiment with Myog stuff, I am now the head sewing lab instructor at the university I am attending for outdoor recreation. Lots of my gear is either made by me from scratch or highly modified, ie my pack. Unlike you I haven't had the opportunity to use cottage manufactured gear. I really want a MLD Burn, and I think it might be in the cards this summer. Your MYOG summer quilt on your website looks really awesome, and I might try to make one before the spring if I can afford it. (I check your website regularly, there is some awesome and inspiring stuff on there). I also mentioned earlier that I might add a hood to my tarp, (ie poncho tarp) but I don't know if I can commit to not having a rain jacket. I will make that decision soon enough.

Looks like my best best is to wait till I have money for a burn, or make my own pack, a lighter rain jacket/ make a poncho tarp, and than buying a Montbell UL inner. Thanks very much for your input. One question, what do you think about adding down to my synthetic quilt and keeping the synthetic insulation in? I thought it might be an easy way to add a little bit of extra warmth to the bag, without a lot of modification.
Thanks again

Hi Mike, I don't think stuffing down into your quilt will help at all. The down will end up matted into the synthetic insulation the first time it's compressed.

A better idea might be to make a light down quilt. A sewn-thru baffle quilt is pretty easy to sew up, could be used inside your synthetic for a nice layered sleeping setup for cold weather, and would be great in the summer alone. The small stuff size won't adversely affect packing; I find a light quilt can be stuffed into the nooks and crannies inside my pack liner, providing a nice compression effect. Also makes a nice sound insulator so i don't hear random rattles from my cookset.

Jamie's quilt is sweet! but expensive, so is the myog M50 quilt. M90 is pricy, M50 is really pricy, and the 900fp down is pricy. If however you were to use generic 1.1 DWR ripstop seconds and 800fp, a summer quilt could be made for around $75, depending on dimensions and loft.

Good luck on your goal my friend!

Edited by cooldrip on 02/12/2011 01:03:10 MST.

Mike, I truly appreciate your reply. I am glad to hear you could use some of my stuff to help. It sure sounds like you are on your own journey as well and ready to try to go farther. You have the skills part down and you went right to MYOG, awesome!

From the quilt perspective I think Scott's reply was right on. I have never experimented with adding down to synthetic although the idea has crossed my mind a couple of times. I was mainly thinking about as best a best of both worlds...lightness of down for 50% of insulation and wet performance of synthetic for the other 50%. My concern would be how the down would distribute across the quilt. Since you are watching your "coins" I would consider it hard before doing it. Why? it might not work out well then you can't sell the original quilt and the down is wasted too. I would wait to do it until I found someone else who has done it and it works. Of course that is not much of a pioneer spirit either, its always neat to be the first.

I'm in agreement with Scott and think your cheapest option is a MYOG down quilt. It will be hard to get a quilt that will go below freezing without premium materials but you will get close. backwoodsdaydreamer.com uncoated ripstop 2nds is by far the cheapest I've seen. You will have materials on par with JRB for performance and weight. I would consider keeping it as narrow as possible, making 1.5" baffles and adding 9 oz of down. You should get a solid 30 degree quilt. Par it with down jacket and hat and you should be able to get to 20 degrees fine in a pinch. Quilt would weigh about 18 oz.

If you end up with a hood pattern for a poncho I sure would like to see it. I haven't seen any MYOG poncho tarps and am planning to do one myself.

At the 5-6 lb range you would be surprised how well a real simply pack can work. I have found that I don't need a sternum strap or belt of any kind, YMMV. In this case you can make a big stuff sack, but rectangular at the bottom. Rough dimensions would be 6" x 10" by 30" tall. You add shoulder straps and a pocket and you have a sub 8 oz pack even using 2.0 oz coated ripstop.

If you see a burn on the horizon then by all means consider staying on that track. I still consider my MLD prophet to be the best pack I have ever owned. I will say for most trips I take it is a bit oversized, but when I bought it the burn wasn't out yet. So if you want the perfect pack for your 5 lb gear go with the burn.

Again thanks for the reply, you made my day.

Jamie

Jamie,

You have inspired many hikers on this forum to dig deeper and lighten the load!

I remember when you wrote about your 5lb Ion trip - light bulbs turned on all across the country! Your style of writing helps the reader.

Thank you for taking the time it takes to share the little details of what you do.

Todd

Ditch the stakes and razor blade and take a knife. I am sure you can find a knife with a 3" blade that weighs less than your tent stakes and razor blade. Think of all the things you can make with a knife that could supplement your gear.

Unless your a hygene freak or your teeth cannot survive a few days without brushing leave the toothpaste and brush in the truck.

Joseph

Totally agree, Jamie your articles are very inspiring. Looks like a MYOG quilt is in my future. Thanks for all the help everyone.

Why? I think Chris asks a good question.

Click on my profile for a sub-4 list, and I can even go lighter in colder weather with my Enlighten cuben quilt (2" loft) and my graham cracker cone set-up, both of which I bought after that trip. I have done many, many 2 & 3 night (and a few longer) trips under 5lbs. But to be honest, adding food and water can easily bring total pack weight above 15lbs and the UL packs are not comfortable... yeah, talk yourself into believing it is.

It is a good exercise to see what you can do, but I would much rather carry a more substantial pack and be completely comfortable with a base weight above 5 lbs.