Jerry: I attempted to test the zipper but we can't seem to get the slider to go up and down the zipper. Should I have gotten the top and bottom stops for the zipper?

I ordered #5CRD and #5 coil zipper on this page: http://www.owfinc.com/Zippers/zippers1.asp . I'm thinking I should have also ordered #5TSTCOIL and #5BST?

Or maybe we are just not connecting the zipper right? Also, can we cut the coil zipper with just regular scissors?

n/m my last question. I was able to figure it out. I did have everything I needed to attach the zipper.

If you never attached a pull to a continuous coil zipper, this is a great article: http://www.questoutfitters.com/zipper_tips.htm.

Yesterday we measured and cut the 8 silnylon pieces. I'm a bit concerned at my accuracy...we'll see how this goes.

I'm now fairly comfortable with the sewing machine and silnylon. Tonight I am going to start sewing the pieces together.

Chris,

I have been watching this thread and look forward to seeing the end result, getting comments on how much time it took, and if you would do it again. The bug netting seems like a scary thing to tackle, I would like to make it either removable or clip up. I have zero sewing experience myself but am really thinking about tackling this project.

Eric

Eric
I was in the same boat as you. I had no experience, and a 10x10x6 pyramid was my first project. It did not turn out pretty, but it is more tham funtional. I would suggest buying some light cheap fabric a make a 1/4 scale pyramid to practice on. I learned alot of valuable things doing this.

Here is my pyramid in a blizzard a few years ago. It amazed me that it was not shredded after that night. Since that picture I trimmed the corners so that it now rests tight to the ground insted of having a gap between the middle of each panel and the ground



It took me a weekend to complete, and I would do it again. After I made the small one and put a woodburning stove in it, I made a huge one that is 25 feet across and 13 feet high with a stove I bought from Ed T. This one took about a week and a half to complete.

Edited by bwortman on 02/08/2011 21:03:21 MST.

Ben,

Cool picture with the sideways snow and thanks for the vote of confidence. I like the idea of the small size practice tent first, and your "circus" tent, wow?

I have been wondering how the gap along the bottom between the stakes is set? If the catenary curve runs up the ridgelines then I assume the curved gap at the bottom is from stretch down the ridgeline to the stakes?

It seems that some pyramids have more gap than others even when the corners are staked tight. What was the reason for trimming down the sides? Were there any adverse effects?

Eric

Just to clarify, I do not have any cat curves on the small tent. I used just normal everyday strait sides. To modify it. I basically just measured up 6" on each corner and then made a straight line to the mid side tie out. Then I just re-sewed the hem on the the bottom edge. This allowed me to stake the 4 corners to the ground and then pull out the sides a little and stake them down.

I will say this, for ease of set up the square pyramid is faster to get pitched. It also seems that there is not as much "wasted" space in a square design.

For a more stormproof design and ease of construction, the round pyramid is better. This is because every panel is the same size and shape, and it is much easier to get it to pitch tight to the ground.

I feel a 10x10 square is about right for 2 people and gear. (I have had 2 in there with the wood stove and winter gear before and that is about maxed out)

Let me know if you have any other questions that I can help with and good luck.

Eric: Ben's advice in making a smaller version is probably sound advice. I am learning as I go, and I'm at a spot that even if this one doesn't turn out like I want, the next one surely will turn out much better. A lot of the timing with this type of project depends on how well you know your sewing machine with silnylon and the processes you use in putting it together.

Ben: That is a massive tent! I sure hope the one I am making now can fit 4 guys with gear in the summer.

So last night I connected two of the eight pieces together and made a flat felled seam. I am VERY happy with how this turned out. But it was a rough start. Below are a few notes on what I learned in doing this:

1. I followed Jerry's advice in hand stitching at both ends and then two hand stitches in the middle. However, even doing this the bottom piece kept on dragging and the line was not matching up with the bottom piece. Part of the problem was that I am using navy silnylon. So the permanent marker is very hard to see and I can't see through the fabric unless I put it directly in front of a light (which is why I couldn't tell it was off until I put it at the light). I had to use a seam reaper twice on about 12-24 inches of seam each time. It is worth noting that this part would probably be easier if you got silnylon that wasn't a very dark color.

What I ended up doing after having to seam rip twice, was I used a massive amount of pins. I put the pins on top of the line with and made the sharp tip point towards the sewing machine every 3-4 inches. When the sewing machine got right up to a pin, I pulled out the pin. This turned out much more accurate (there was no sliding after this). I didn't have to seam rip to correct the line after I did this.

2. In Jerry's article, he mentioned cutting the eight pieces 0.5 inches beyond the marked line. I did this, but this ended up making the flat felled seam very difficult to work with. With the help of my wife, I was able to figure out how to use pins perpendicular to the seam that made sewing much easier (so I put in a pin every 4-6 inches so the material held the shape and I just sewed right over the pin). I had to put in a third row of stitching to not have any raw edges sticking out. With that said, once I got the pins in, sewing the two rows of stitches to complete the seam was very simple, because it was easy to follow the line that you are sewing next to.

If I was going to re-do this, I probably would cut the fabric at least 1" from the line to make the flat felled seam go much more smoothly.

On the next piece I am going to try the methods that I think work the best and time how long it takes to do it. If it works well again, on the next piece I will take photos of what I did and start putting together an article that should be a great companion to Jerry's article, but from the perspective of someone who is brand spanking new at MYOG.

At this point I'm very confident in my ability to accurately sew on the pieces. I'm a bit concerned at the accuracy of my cat curve...and if I am off, if the tent will still be usable or not. If it doesn't turn out, than I may go with Ben's suggestion in not going with a cat curve....or figuring out a different method in creating the curve more accurately.

All in all, there are things that are easier and harder with this project....especially when dealing with a cat curve. But I'm hoping that I won't be the only one who will learn from my experience! :) But I will say that the sewing aspect of this project, for someone who just learned how to use his wife's sewing machine, is going better than I thought it might.

Thanks for your insights, I think I will play with some sketches and build one out of plastic sheeting to see how it feels. I was looking at the photo of Ryan Jordans pyramid (from the "24" article) which is 8'3" square but does not mention the height, it almost seems like there is a catenary curve along the bottom as well, but maybe it is just the center tie outs that make it look that way.

I can remember my mom using lots of pins to hold things together when she sewed, will use that method for sure.

Eric

Just got back from a trip.

Looks like you're figuring things out.

I've used pins some but I don't like them. I think most people probably use pins though.

I have light gray fabric that you can see through easily.

1 inch seam allowance is good too. My wife said that 5/8 inch is typical for clothing patterns.

Seam rippers - unfortunately, they are very useful.

I like to hear other people's ideas. I've figured out a way that works for me but always looking for better ways to do things.

The people at owfinc.com and questoutfitters.com are pretty helpful on the phone. Like the owfinc guy said not to bother with zipper stops, just sew a bunch of stitches.

Last night I stayed up late in putting in five stake loops on the tent...in other words, it is ready to be setup today! I should be able to set it up in a few hours.

I've got high hopes, but very low expectations for this shelter. I'm pretty confident in how my wife and I sewed things together. But based on how the corners of the pyramid turned out, I know our actual measured lines were not the same in all eight pieces of the fabric (which is very obvious in the fact that two out of the four bottom corners did not line up at all).

With that said, I think my wife and I improved on the method described in the article for putting in a zipper. In fact, I am very happy with the zipper. I think using top and bottom zipper stops allows for a much cleaner installation, and I'll share photos and descriptions in what we did to put in the zipper.

It seemed like it took me forever to do the sewing. Yesterday, my wife started helping me with the sewing and she was just as accurate as me, but twice as fast. I would probably say that with creating the cat curve jig and putting everything together up to this point, it probably took a total of 50 hours. If my wife did most of the sewing, she would have probably had it done in 30-35 hours. Also keep in mind that this includes putting a third stitch into all of the seams (except for the bottom), and pinning all of the lines.

Jerry: I'm impressed with how you were able to accurately sew the pieces together with four hand stitches. Maybe I'm not handling the material/sewing machine correctly? Not having to use so many pins for everything would probably knock out 10 or so hours from this project. But it is worth the time if this is what we need to do in coming out with accurately stitched lines.

I'm already very aware with where we messed up on this project, and my mind has started thinking about doing it again in a way that comes up more accurately. I'll post later today with how my current shelter turned out.

I'm always interested in easier ways to do things.

Like I'm not totally happy with my zipper technique.

Each time I do things it's easier than the last time and it comes out better.

Except when there are occasional regressions.

How I keep the long lengths aligned:

Sewing machine needle starts at one of my hand stitched (or you could use pins) aligned points. I hold the next aligned point in my hand, which is maybe 2 feet of sewing from where it currently is. I then select a point that's maybe 6 inches away from where the needle is currently and align the top and bottom and hold firmly between fingers. My two fingers not only contact the fabric, but each other, so the top and bottom fabric don't slip. Then I sew about 6 inches. Repeat...

Also, it sometimes helps to pull the fabric through from the back side. Keep constant tension. Tightly hold together the top and bottom fabric so they don't slip relative to each other. If the top started to slip a little, then there'de be more tension on it which would tend to negate the slip.

At some point, the tent will be completed but not perfect. Hopefully the imperfections will be unimportant. If at one end, one piece wasn't lined up perfectly, don't worry. Since the silnylon is stretchy it will compensate to some extent. If you don't feel like ripping the seam and doing it again right, when you're hemming the perimeter, you could just cut off the excess and gradually get the hem back in line with what it's supposed to be.

Thanks Jerry for the tips.

So I setup the tent twice yesterday. The time I did it during lunch, it seemed like one side was sagging. When I set it up again later that day, I made the pole higher so the fabric was tighter and it looked a lot better. When I set it up the 2nd time, the wind was very gusty...and it ended up bending my small titanium stakes and the shelter collapsed. There was a lot of flapping going on, and I think when I add the middle tie outs to the other sides, it will prevent some of that. The wind was definitely up there in the most gusty I've seen when I've backpacked.

It actually turned out better than I thought it was going to. In fact, I do think the shelter is very usable. I'm still undecided in whether we are going to create a new one. But I am going to finish this one out (other than the perimeter netting, for now) and do some waterproof testing to see how much it leaks.

I did use the black diamond trekking pole connector and it seemed to work fine. Except it was a hassle to get my trekking poles to the correct lengths. I think I am going to just get a separate center pole.

Does anyone know of other types of collapsible poles you can purchase, other than aluminum (for the center pole)? I'm interested in lighter options.

My plan is to sew in the apex reinforcement and get the remaining tent stake loops in by this weekend. A few brief thoughts at this point:

- The ladder locks that Jerry recommends in the article are awesome.

- I'm curious to know if the third row of stitching in the flat felled seams are really necessary. It would save a lot of time if this row was not needed.

- I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but using a silver colored sharpie for dark silnylon would have been wayyyyyyy easier than what we used. In fact, we could have probably seen the line on the 2nd piece of silnylon when sewing if we did this, and not needed to pin so much.

- In my opinion, I think it would save time and make things more accurate if you made the exact piece you need for all eight sides out of one large pieces of ply wood. I realize that this probably is not the cheap option, and cutting it does require extra work....but this would give you a durable template to trace on the fabric with. And you could make each piece be exactly to spec.

Edited by chrisroane on 02/15/2011 07:31:59 MST.

Hey Chris,

Thanks for keeping us updated on your project, I'm following it closely as I have a couple pyramid projects of my own planned. I look forward to seeing some pictures and reading your write-up of what you would do differently and any tips you may have for new sewers such as myself. Keep the updates coming!

Yeah, we want pictures!

"- The ladder locks that Jerry recommends in the article are awesome."

to tighten the tent stake loops? Yes, I think these work very good.

"- I'm curious to know if the third row of stitching in the flat felled seams are really necessary. It would save a lot of time if this row was not needed."

no, not necesary.

however, when I do the first two rows, I'm fiddling around trying to keep the two layers from slipping, so I don't think the consistency of the stitches is good. The third row doesn't take very long to do, because you just let the machine feed it through as quickly as possible, and it's more consistent.

The only place I've seen the seam rip out is right at the bottom. The silnylon stretches right at the corner, more than the polyester thread, so the thread breaks. This is really just aesthetic, because the fabric is held together right at the corner by the perimeter hem and the tent stake loop grosgrain. But, you can do a zigzag stitch and then the thread won't break.

"- In my opinion, I think it would save time and make things more accurate if you made the exact piece you need for all eight sides out of one large pieces of ply wood. I realize that this probably is not the cheap option, and cutting it does require extra work....but this would give you a durable template to trace on the fabric with. And you could make each piece be exactly to spec."

I've tried that. Only I used "hard board" - compressed small sized sawdust. One thing is it's so heavy that the fabric can get wrinkled or stretched underneath it. You could have a thiner piece on each of three sides - thick enough so each piece stays straight.



Maybe you should go ahead and use the tent as is. Or at least set it up in the yard for a few days or weeks. See how it stands up to wind and rain (like you said).

Sometimes, I'll move on to a second prototype and then realize that it's pretty much the same as the previous version. You want to get maximum information from the prototype before moving on to the next version.

You could use .625 inch aluminum tubing like I said in the article - kind of heavy but I think it's way strong. I keep thinking about getting .49 inch which weighs half as much and is probably plenty strong.

Today I ordered a few different tent poles.

I ordered both 0.625 and 0.433 aluminum tent poles. When I called quest to see if they thought the 0.433 would be strong enough, she said that they might work but would most likely end up flexing more than the 0.625. I got them both to see which one would work the best. If I can be confident that the 0.433 would be strong enough in high winds and storms, than that will be a great weight savings from the other poles. But I obviously don't want these to fail on a long trip.

I did get the apex and the other tie outs sewed onto the tent. I'll make a note of testing the shelter out this weekend and putting together that write up I keep on talking about.

Come on Chris, stop with the teasing and show us your creation. I'd love to see this thing.

I'm still doing some testing. I'll post photos this weekend. I just want to make sure that what I am putting into the article is accurate information. :)

Jerry: Did you use nylon grossgrain for connecting the ladderlock to the tent? I used 1/2 inch nylon webbing for this, but I couldn't tell what you used in the article. It seems like it holds fine, but I wonder how this will hold up over time (on my shelter).

Also, you mentioned that cutting out a large piece from plywood for the cat jig didn't work because the weight caused wrinkles. What if you did that, but cut out a large piece from the middle? So you would end up with maybe 2-3" of wood for each side (all in one piece), and then you could see if there are any wrinkles in the middle? This sounds really good to me because you are sure to make each piece square, and if you are careful with cutting the wood, everything should be very accurate.

If I'm going to get my wife to help me with the 2nd one, I'll need her to do it in March since we are having our 2nd child in May. I'm going to gather as much data as possible from what we did already before we get started on the next one.

As far as the best quality of 2nd silnylon goes, who would you recommend? I'm leaning towards quest, because they seam to be the most knowledgeable on the phone. But OWF seems to be cheaper. The stuff I got from Noah Lampart looks good, but I can't find much information from how it compares with 2nds from other companies.

1/2 inch grosgrain or webbing would work equally good to attach ladderlock to tent - grosgrain is negligably lighter weight, they're both way strong

Cut out center of plywood jig - sounds good to me, it would be lighter too which would help. Might be easier to take 3 strips that are each 2 to 3 inches wide and attach them at ends. If the attachments were removeable you could store it easier.

I have arbitrarily used 2ds silnylon from owfinc.com

Just to screw with you:

have you followed the American silnylon thread?

In heavy prolonged rain I have experienced slight misting - the outside of my sleeping bag is slightly damp but it didn't make the bag wet inside at all. After I slept in the bag overnight it was dry.

Maybe the 2ds silnylon has more misting, but the pyramid tent should be more tolerant of more misty silnylon because it has steep walls.

But I don't know how to select less misty silnylon. http://www.extremtextil.de/catalog/index.php is the only supplier I know of that specs waterproofness, and I have no confidence that their spec'd fabric is better than owfinc or quest, or if it is better whether you'de even notice

I would just buy from owfinc or quest

By the way, the owfinc people I have talked to on the phone have been very knowledgeable

I thought you got 25 yards already which should be enough for two tents

If you set your tent up in the yard, put something like a sleeping bag inside, and caught a prolonged heavy rain, you could evaluate whether you thought misting was a problem

I'm not totally dismissing the misting complaint that people have. Occasionally it's noticeable. But I don't think it makes your sleeping bag wet enough to cause insulation loss.

I have got way more wet because I accidentally let the foot of the sleeping bag stick out under the edge of the tent, or slept in what became a puddle, or left the door open and slept too close to it.

I went to Lowes and all of their large boards were 4x8, when I needed one that was 5x8. So I'm scrapping that idea. I think I'm going to talk to my friend who is handy with wood and see if he can help me connect pieces of wood to make the jig.

I should have enough silnylon from the noah lamport order I made to make another one. But I wasn't sure if the quality of those 2nds would match the quality of owfinc. But it does look like it should work fine. So I'll probably just use that to safe money.

I have been keeping somewhat of an eye on the american silnylon thread. I'm honestly not too concerned about it. I'm more concerned about condensation, but I'm hopeful that it will just roll down the side. I do use a down bag, but have had problems only when the bag touches the single wall shelter.

I think you're right on about the condensation

That's worse than any misting, so the misting is mainly a non-issue

The steep walls and large volume should help

Make sure you can leave the door open for ventilation if it's cold, humid, not windy

And make the center pole higher so there's a bigger gap around the perimeter in high condensation conditions