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Christine Thuermer
(chgeth1) - F
Synthetic quilt for sub-freezing temperatures on 01/25/2011 00:15:51 MST Print View

I am currently preparing for a thrupaddle of the Yukon and try to decide which gear to take.
I usually use only down sleeping bags, but for the damp and cool climate of the Yukon I would rather opt for a synthetic quilt.

So far I have come across 2 viable options:

- BPL UL 240 quilt
- MLD Spirit quilt

The MLD is rated down to freezing, the BPL is not rated at all.
The only other synthetic quilt that I am aware of is the Golite RS 3 quilt, but it is rated in the same temperature range and much heavier.

Is there any other synthetic quilt on the market that might be warmer than those two?

Thanks,
Christine

Daniel Allen
(Dan_Quixote) - F

Locale: below the mountains (AK)
Re: Synthetic quilt for sub-freezing temperatures on 01/25/2011 00:29:16 MST Print View

Tim Marshall's enlightened equipment website lists 7.4oz CLIMASHIELD COMBAT as "good to about 15*". Unfortunately, he's taking a hiatus from making quilts for a few months.

I'm no expert, but that might be helpful in estimating BPL's quilt's rating, as 7.4oz is about 1/5th lighter per yard than BPL's proprietary insulation at 240 grams.

Of course, who knows if the different materials have similar insulation/weight ratios.

Hope this helps!

-Daniel

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Arrowhead Equipment's Winter Upgrade. on 01/25/2011 00:33:48 MST Print View

Drop Paul at Arrowhead Equipment a line. He's a great guy and has just started making winter synthetic quilts:

http://arrowheadequipment.webs.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1912347

---M

Misfit Mystic
(cooldrip)

Locale: "Grand Canyon of the East"
Synthetic quilt on 01/25/2011 00:41:43 MST Print View

Contact Ron at MLD; he's a great guy, and I'm sure he would be able to help you with a custom design if you need something warmer than his standard quilts.

Javan Dempsey also makes some pretty amazing custom quilts. There is a thread right now discussing one of his custom quilts if you want some good photo examples of his work. Craftsmanship, much like MLD, is as good as anything made anywhere in the world.

I've no experience with or knowledge of the BPL quilt, so can't really comment, though I'm sure it's top-notch.

Christine Thuermer
(chgeth1) - F
Synthetic quilt for sub-freezing temperatures on 01/26/2011 04:20:09 MST Print View

Thanks for all the tips, but unfortunately they do not seem to work out.

Enlightened Equipment is taking a "creative break" (as you have mentioned) - also I could not find a temperature rating for their quilts.
And Arrowhead's winter upgrade is sold out ;-(

Seems I am out of luck... if no better idea comes up I will probably end up with the BPL or MLD quilt.

Christine

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: WNC
Re: Synthetic quilt for sub-freezing temperatures on 01/26/2011 04:25:43 MST Print View

AFAIK, the BPL quilt is the warmest for the weight production model right now.

Tim @ Enlightened could certainly make you something as warm or warmer and Ron @ MLD probably can as well. You also have the Jardine option but those tend to be a lot heavier than necessary. Someone on the forums might be willing to do it as well if you ask nicely and the timing lines up.

Edited by simplespirit on 01/26/2011 04:27:36 MST.

Christine Thuermer
(chgeth1) - F
Synthetic quilt for sub-freezing temperatures on 01/26/2011 04:46:18 MST Print View

@Chris:
We have had this discussion before on the BPL Product Support Forum. Unfortunately, the BPL quilt does not have a temperature rating yet and I am still very reluctant to part with so much money for a product that is insufficiently described.
It was actually you who made me reconsider the BPL quilt by mentioning that it has about 50% more insulation than the MLD one...
As it looks like now I will probably be the first one to buy the BPL quilt and write a review about - I just hope it will be a good one... ;-)
Christine

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: WNC
Re: Synthetic quilt for sub-freezing temperatures on 01/26/2011 05:27:54 MST Print View

BPL doesn't provide temp ratings on anything they make as policy. Temp rating is very subjective.

Ex. While an EN rated 20 deg down bag might keep me warm to 20, it might only keep another male of similar age and build warm to 25 or even 30. I used EN because it's the most objective measurement we have for bag/quilt warmth, but even it isn't 100% accurate.

Paul Gibson
(pgibson) - F

Locale: SW Idaho
Re: Re: Synthetic quilt for sub-freezing temperatures on 01/26/2011 10:43:57 MST Print View

Chris, what temp are you looking to hit? We have sold out of the 11 oz Climashield we were using for the winter upgrade, but we do have some mid weights that we could layer to get to nearly any temp you want. Just be aware that once you pass about the equivalent of 9oz to the yard that the bulk and weight do get more and more substantial...as they get harder and harder to get as good of compression. 9oz should get most users into the teens. The 11 that we had was taking folks to close to 0.

Cheers,

Paul
Arrowhead Equipment

Christine Thuermer
(chgeth1) - F
Synthetic quilt for sub-freezing temperatures on 01/27/2011 07:41:30 MST Print View

Paul,

thanks for your answer. I am expecting temperatures around or slightly below freezing on the Yukon. But you know the problem with temperature ratings....

For example I own the WM Summerlite and the Ultralite. Summerlite is rated down to freezing, the Ultralite even down to 20 F. I have used both bags extensively for months on end and had to realise that neither is warm enough when you are constantly expecting temps around freezing. On the Yukon I will have not much chance of drying out or resting, so I want a reasonable temperature buffer - at least down to 20 F, better even lower.

Hope you understand my problem - it is a difference to survive one night to having to live in the same bag for 2 month without a break.

Christine

Donald Browning
(docdb) - M

Locale: SE USA
Been there..... on 01/27/2011 08:23:10 MST Print View

I know you are interested in a quilt, but I would highly recommend the Kifaru "Slick" bag for your application. I have one and have used it in the Yukon, and Alaska and can't say enough good things.
Don

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
ratings on 01/27/2011 08:25:00 MST Print View

keep in mind that women require a bag roughly 5C+ warmer than men

the summerlite is a 43F bag for women comfort

Komfortbereich (abhängig von Geschlecht, Körperstatur etc.) ca 2°C für Männer, ca. 6°C für Frauen nach EN-Norm 13537-2002

http://www.sackundpack.de/product_info.php?products_id=1627

the ultralite is rated to 28F for women comfort

Temperaturgränser enligt EN 13537
-2ºC T comf
-9ºC T lim
-27ºC T ext

http://www.getout.se/sv/artiklar/bo-sova/sovsackar/dun-tre-sasong/ultralite-3.html

Ron Bell
(mountainlaureldesigns) - F - M

Locale: USA
Re: Synthetic quilt for sub-freezing temperatures on 01/27/2011 08:36:42 MST Print View

Hi Christine,

We can make a custom warmer quilt with 6.2 oz. - about 180 gms sq m - of the newest ClimaShield Apex. Note that the Apex is the highest Climashield clo / warmth per weight. All the other climashields are lower clo.

The extra insulation is +$40 over the reg Spirit 30. About 8 more oz for the extra layer.

Skurka took the 4.8 oz wt Apex to the teens and so the higher clo Apex of 6.2 should be plenty OK for most anyone in the teens + use of reg clothing in the sleep system.

Thanks,
Ron

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: WNC
Re: Synthetic quilt for sub-freezing temperatures on 01/27/2011 08:42:04 MST Print View

Keep in mind that Andy (Skurka) is an animal. Do not expect to be able to do what he can do. IIRC, he used a 0 degree GoLite bag on his most recent expedition to temps of 20 or 30 below.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Quilts and clo and temperature ratings on 01/27/2011 09:56:32 MST Print View

Saying "temperature rating" and "clo" in the same sentence as quilt sort of makes me laugh.

We do it at BPL, too, so don't think I'm not picking on anyone else, and am happy to point fingers back at myself.

But there are serious limits to attaching a temperature rating to a quilt because one's warmth while using a quilt has a lot more to do with their understanding of what makes quilts fail.

Of course, if you haven't read this yet, and then tested the theories and observations that are outlined in that article at least in your backyard, then don't go any farther, or you'll never be able to make sense out of any of this. Ideally, spend 7 straight nights in temperatures at 40F or lower. Come back to the forums every day and share your experiences and ask for advice, and by the end of the seventh night, you'll have figured it out.

There are meaningful differences in insulation quantity between MLD and BPL quilts. BPL quilts are heavier and thicker and offer more insulating insurance for less experienced folks at cooler temperatures, or ULers that want to push quilt limits to winter temperatures. MLD quilts are lighter and should be considered for more experienced users, or less experienced users in warmer temperatures.

As far as insulation "types" go, the industry now borders on stupidity trying to differentiate any of this with dry clo values. BPL's insulation was developed specifically to minimize loss of air void volume in response to the accumulation of moisture. To this end, there are big differences in insulations out there. However, if you keep it dry, it's really only about thickness - the differences between all of the major brands of dry insulation is minimal and reported clo values are best used by marketing departments, not users. There are differences in clo/weight ratios, but even then, they're pretty small considering the amounts of insulation that we are using in our quilts.

I have hundreds of nights in a quilt. I use the BPL UL 240, with the Cocoon Hoody and Pants, year round. Summer night temps for me in the northern Rockies are usually 25F to 40F, and I take this system down to the single digits pretty easily without too much effort or thinking, but prefer to use a cozy down mummy bag below about 15F.

Edited by ryan on 01/27/2011 10:01:43 MST.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Climashield on 01/27/2011 10:47:29 MST Print View

Personally I feel Climashield is the best synthetic insulation out there at this time. It has good comressability as well as good loft retention after being stuffed.

Good loft retention is not the strong suit of one other popular synthetic insulation which shall go unnamed so as not to cause flaming here.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
re on 01/27/2011 12:16:47 MST Print View

That's a great article

My only complaint is that the loft per weight is best for a top bag, but then you discount it because of draft tubes on the sleeper's sides, but if you have a collar at the top then this is largely a non-issue.

What's the difference between the proprietary insulation in the BPL quilt VS Climashield or Primaloft?

Christine Thuermer
(chgeth1) - F
MLD Spirit quilt vs. BPL UL 240 on 01/28/2011 06:31:44 MST Print View

@Jerry

Thanks, Jerry, this is exactly the same question that has been bothering me. What is the difference between the 2 insulation materials? Ryan says:

"There are meaningful differences in insulation quantity between MLD and BPL quilts. BPL quilts are heavier and thicker and offer more insulating insurance for less experienced folks at cooler temperatures, or ULers that want to push quilt limits to winter temperatures. MLD quilts are lighter and should be considered for more experienced users, or less experienced users in warmer temperatures."

As far as I have seen both quilts weigh about the same ...so were does the difference come from? If your insulation is so much heavier how come that both quilts are the same weight? Does the difference come from the other materials?

Christine

Edited by chgeth1 on 01/28/2011 06:41:56 MST.

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: WNC
Re: MLD Spirit quilt vs. BPL UL 240 on 01/28/2011 06:48:29 MST Print View

The BPL quilt has 240g/sq m of insulation and weighs 23.9 oz in a regular. The MLD Spirit 30 has ~ 120g/sq m of insulation and weighs 18 oz in a regular. That's a decent difference in total weight. The shell fabrics are likely similar in weight, but other variances can come from dimensions, cords, cord locks, straps, etc.

Christine Thuermer
(chgeth1) - F
Synthetic quilt for sub-freezing temperatures on 01/28/2011 07:09:38 MST Print View

Sorry, I was comparing BPL regular size to MLD large size.

But it is difficult to compare as BPL does not give a sizing chart and also does not give the weight for a size large. As MLD also offers an XL, BPL regular and MLD large might be closer together than it seems.

By the way: The sizing question has been asked before on the Support forum, but there has not been an answer yet from BPL.

Christine