I have recently taken a snowshoeing/backcountry skiing class, where the instructors both categorically stated that the maritime mountains in Washington and Oregon are NOT country for down outerwear, that we are too wet. Naturally, I have all down--sleeping bags, jacket and pants for insulation---and have used it in the summer and liked it. I carry my down in Cuben fiber dry bags from MLD, and have a pack cover when it's raining. We use an REI Quarterdome T2 Plus when we're backpacking. I'm a real weenie, and slap on rain gear at the drop of a hat, including my pack cover.

Now, one guest speaker disputed the No-Down policy, and said that if you use common sense, that down is perfectly usable in our climates. So far, we've gotten really lucky, and have not been out on a prolonged hike in completely pouring rain. I know that synthetic vs. down gets thrashed around a lot, and never the twain shall meet, but I wondered if the down enthusiasts could comment on how they keep their down dry, and wondered if I was using common sense enough or not. Haven't had the thrill of pitching the tent only to find ourselves in a puddle in the morning, but barring events like that, could anyone comment?

Also, does it depend on the season--down ok for summer use, but better get synthetic if we snowshoe a lot? My partner has put his foot down and refuses (so far) to camp in the snow, so we'd just be out for the day, and worrying about 10 essentials in the event that things go completely cock-eyed and can't get back.

You can use down in the PNW. just have to keep it dry.

Either put it in a waterproof bag or have a waterproof pack.

If you're exercising make sure you're not sweating.

And if it's raining have a good raincoat or wait to put the down on when you're in your tent.

etc....

I just got a down vest and it's much better when it goes below 32F and it weighs half as much as synthetic vest for the same warmth.

If down really didn't make sense in the Northwest, than Feathered Friends wouldn't be in business. I agree with what Jerry said, you just have to keep it dry. As he said, that means protecting it from the moisture you generate, as well as the stuff that comes from the sky. Of course, we have days when it really isn't coming from the sky, but all of the air around you (basically, you are in the cloud). In that condition, keeping things dry is a little more challenging (but still not impossible).

Either you're practicing proper moisture management or you're not. I don't care where you live or what the average annual rainfall is in that area.

Didn't make a lot of sense to me. Like I said, I carry it in waterproof bags, I wear clothes inside my bag that are usually dedicated to sleeping so it's not like I'm wearing sweaty trail clothes inside my bag.

I have heard several people advocate wearing wet clothes to dry them. It would seem to be difficult in our damp cool weather here, and what about wearing wet clothes in a down sleeping bag?

Anyone got specific tips for keeping down dry while camping in the clouds ? Do you have to use a bivy or tent ?

I sometimes wear damp socks in my synthetic sleeping bag in Western Oregon and Washington and they dry out by morning, even in humid conditions.

And jacket, pants, or shirt but they usually dry out in a couple hours in my tent before getting in sleeping bag. You need to have clothing that doesn't absorb much water so it dries out quickly.

I think that most high end down gear these days has a very good DWR treatment. I haven't had any problems with down in the PNW. Just don't submerge it during a stream crossing. You know just "duh" type stuff.

Edited by Vertigo on 01/27/2011 01:29:08 MST.

I guess ducks and geese must avoid the PNW since their down doesn't work. :)

Edited by gg-man on 01/24/2011 15:54:27 MST.

Thanks for the tips.

Down is suitable for any environment. I often hear people say stuff like "I don't use down because if it gets wet..." or what you mentioned about certain areas being 'too humid.' I think all of these assertions are ridiculous. Down does require you to actively try and keep it dry but why would you feel more comfortable getting a synthetic bag wet? Yes they would retain more insulating properties but wet is wet, and miserable no matter what your bag is filled with. As for where you use a down bag, I also find this ridiculous to say it is suitable one place and not another. I went a winter trip to Utah and after cowboy camping my quilt was 'soaked' by frost. Obviously, drying only took 20 min in the sun. But I used the same quilt in Olympic NP over Thanksgiving, and never had much of a problem, just normal condensation. If that worries you a bivy would provide plenty of extra protection from condensation/frost.

The myth has been going around for many years (undoubtedly boosted by makers of synthetic insulation) that synthetic insulation is "warm when wet." My own experience (30 years ago now) shows that this is not the case--a soggy synthetic bag is just as cold as a soggy down bag! This was the trip in which a nice flat area turned into a lake overnight when a cloudburst hit about 9 pm, kept going for most of the night and then turned to snow. We did a lot of wringing out and holding bags over the fire the next morning, which resulted in smoke-smelling bags but very little drying. We finally packed up and hiked out, reaching the trailhead about dark.

The important thing is not the type of insulation, but keeping it dry! Use a waterproof pack liner with waterproof closure or a dry bag for your insulation--stuff sacks and pack covers are not waterproof. Be careful to select a camp site that won't become a lake in heavy rain. Protect your puffy jacket from sweat--wear it at stops, not while exercising hard. Protect it from rain by wearing it under your rain jacket.

Google the weather stats for the Olympics. What you will see is moderate temperatures, lots of precip and high humidity, and *no* direct sun. It is like hiking in a cold wet sponge. Your perspiration has nowhere to go. You will wake up in the morning covered in dew and condensation. Fleece is the best in this envirnoment and down is terrible. Synthetic bags are much easier to live with. You don't need to expose down to direct moisture to get it damp in cold high humidity enviroments. Same for cotton. You can't depend on the sun for drying-- even Seattle has 260+ days a year with overcast and the Olympics and the west side of the Cascades get even more. The Ho River area gets 200+ inches of rain per year and the lower elevations of the Cascades get upwards of 100 inches.

Go a few miles on the other side of the mountains and you have desert conditions. Down is great in cold, dry weather.

And the down on a goose doesn't get wet as the outer feathers keep it dry and the goose spends a lot of time on maintenance. "Like water rolling off a duck's back" has real meaning. If the down gets wet the goose is cooked, so to speak.

Diane,
The only thing I've worn wet to bed in my down bag were my socks. I dried them out each night in Glacier NP by wearing them to bed. Even when the temps got to the low 30's, my socks were dry by morning. There may have been a bit of moisture in my sleeping bag footbox, but that dried out pretty quickly. I wouldn't wear wet pants or shirts to bed, and if your vestments are made of the right material, they'll usually dry within 30-45 minutes while hiking. When conditions are cool and damp, clothes will take forever to dry out on a clothesline, while body heat will do wonders.

As far as down clothing goes, if you're exerting enough energy to create enough sweat to dampen your clothing, then you're TOO warm. As long as I'm hiking, I'm usually good with a heavy baselayer, my thin synthetic pants, and a softshell jacket. This will take me down to 10-15 degrees. I have no experience camping colder than that yet, so the rules may change as it gets even colder.

I'd rather have the common sense for correctly protecting my down items than foolishly forgoing extra precautions simply because I'm using synthetic and "don't have to worry as much."

Edited by T.L. on 01/24/2011 16:44:48 MST.

do a little impromptu survey of past PCT thru hikers, I think you'd find that the overwhelming majority used down bags and I'm guessing that most wouldn't change that- practice good technique in keeping it dry (just like you would a syn bag!)

clothing I think you'd find more of a split, but no reason down garments couldn't be used effectively by keeping the garments dry

the question is how confident are you that you wont screw up?

cotton works great as well ... just dont get it wet

the difference between down and synth ... is that with synth you can usually dry it out quite a bit with body heat and a hot nalgene

with thin down sweaters you may be able to dry it out without the sun in the field .... anything thicker, not likely

if you have an all down system ... let me ask ... what is your plan if you get one of them wet? ... would you dry down jacket inside yr down bag? .... or can you bail if your bag gets damp?

for those who believe that synth is just dead weight ... note that mr jordan and skurka have used synth quite a bit in their travels ... notably on the alaska trip ... if anyone else had the skills to not screw up and wanted to be as light as possible ... itll be them

down works great ... just dont get it wet ...

When I head out in the winter, I generally divide my insulation into three components: down, wool, and synthetic. My sleeping bag is down, plus maybe one fat parka. My heavy trousers and at least one shirt will be wool, plus maybe socks, a hat, or gloves. There is synthetic all over the place, from long johns to socks to shirts.

Each material kind of has its own slot for strengths, and each material has its weaknesses as well.

--B.G.--

Cold and damp aside, methinks trip duration should also figure in.

I live in relatively dry So Cal -- so no problem with my down bag -- and yes, I too agree that just a bit of common sense precaution (i.e. the exact same thing one would do to protect synthetic layers from rain and water mishap) was all that's needed.

No direct experience, but what about multi-day hikes cold, damp weather with continuous rain to boot? I'm still wondering about the effect of accumulated body moisture in a down bag -- with rainy days that prevent any chance of airing out one's bag to dry??

Nikwax makes a product called Down Proof that purportedly prevents down from absorbing moisture while also renewing DWR. I've not used the product, so cannot endorse it.

I've done extensive backpacking year-round in Washington and I agree with many of the above posts- down is a viable choice in our climate. Here are some caveats:

- You have to be aware of where the dew point is within you layering system. Often you can dry clothing only to deposit that moisture within the down of your sleeping bag. This is why sleeping with down clothing inside a synthetic bag makes sense.

- Trip length matters a lot. On a multi-day constant rain and condensation trip, your down is likely to accumulate moisture day to day, reducing loft. These conditions are the hardest for down. I've been on many trips when drying things out was impossible.

- Sleeping with wet clothing is dangerous due to moisture accumulation that doesn't pass completely out of the bag. On multi-day wet trips I've had the down in the foot area collapse from wearing wet socks to bed. Warm feet the first night, freezing the last. Better to keep the damp socks at your core and even better to not allow ANY moisture into a down bag from my experience.

- I like to mix down with synthetics so I won't suffer if everything gets wet. At least my synthetics will be warm. That said, I often use synthetic clothing with synthetic quilts. Modern synthetics are close enough in weight and I like being warm no matter what. Also, I'm often a minimalist with minimal overlap of insulation. With all synthetics, I don't have to worry as much if I accumulate moisture. That said, my winter bags are always down to keep weight and bulk down. Also, my winter trips are usually shorter.

- To make down work in serious rain, I always use a dry bag and often a pack cover as well. Respect and protect the down and you'll be just fine.

Also, remember that ducks and geese have waterproof top feathers! I'd be curious to see what would happen if they had ONLY down. I've spent several miserable nights in wet or damp down bags and it is no fun!

Best, Doug

doug is correct.
i could add only that elevation has a great deal to do with things, as does temperature/humidity, but to a lesser extent.
you can make any mistake (almost) you want at 11,000' and you'll be dry in a jiffy. you do those same stupids at sea level and, if it's foggy, you'll stay wet until you land a commercial drier.
at lower elevations, trip length matters a LOT.

low elevation plus fog, and you can walk farther per day with a syn bag.
(it's just a cry'n shame that they so badly Suck to sleep in)

cheers,
peter v.

Excellent product. Atsko Sport Wash though works just as well, is less expensive, and works well on any natural fiber like merino wool too.

So if the down cannot absorb moisture, is it a safe assumption that there would be less moisture accumulation due to sweat evaporation while sleeping? Would the moisture simply get trapped between the fibers instead of absorbed into them? Or am I getting the concept wrong?

"So if the down cannot absorb moisture, is it a safe assumption that there would be less moisture accumulation due to sweat evaporation while sleeping? Would the moisture simply get trapped between the fibers instead of absorbed into them? Or am I getting the concept wrong?"

Dead wrong. Down will absorb moisture and will stay that way until you add heat and some fluffing.

The issue when sleeping is that warm air rising from your body can hold a lot of moisture. It moves through the down until it hits the colder outer areas and condenses. For an overnighter, you will get by, but go for several days and it gets progressively wetter, clumping, losing its loft and insulating value, and getting heavier.

What do people do when hiking with down? Typically, they will allow it to dry as much as possible in the morning and spread it out in the sun at lunch time. Great idea if the dampness is slight and there is good direct sun.

My experience:

Off I-90, 50 miles from Seattle this last July 4th, it was in the high 40's F at 4500' feet in the early afternoon, with heavy overcast and a big rain squall around 4PM. Humidity was high and the dew point was low. Hiking in the clouds, for real. Wake up on a cold morning and all your gear is covered with dew. Walk out through a brushy trail in the morning and you have to put on rain gear to stay dry: the dew looks like someone sprayed the brush with a hose minutes before you came down the trail.

Typical Western Washington rain isn't thundershowers. It rains lightly but constantly for hours, if not days. It might rain non-stop for a weekend and not accumulate 0.5". Add temps of 45-50F and humidity levels over 90%. Add constant overcast-- no direct sun for days. Add hiking steep switchbacks and trails with running and/or standing water, mud, and add a few stream crossings for dessert. There is nowhere for your perspiration to go-- you need a squeegee, not a towel. Get to camp, put up your shelter and shake out your bag to loft. Come back in an hour and it is cold and damp. Doing Leave No Trace, aka no fire, and you are living in a cold sauna with a mud floor. And you want to add a $400 sack of goose feathers to that mix? Insanity.

Drop the other side of the Cascades and the rainfall drops to 20" a year. Some of the stuff that misses the Olympics and Cascades makes it to Western Montana, but Get higher up in the Rockies and farther south and you have prime down country, along with the high deserts, and the Sierra. BUT, for anything in the upper left hand corner of the map of North America, down sucks. You can make it work, but synthetic is much safer and easier. And there is at least as much bad synthetic gear as there is down.

And when you mention Feathered Friends being in Seattle, that is not proof of anything. There is a big down market for high altitude climbing, trekking the Himalaya, the Rockies, the Alps, the Arctic and more. And then there is fashion. I've seen someone wearing a North Face Nuptse jacket on a downtown city street in 60F weather!

to add to what dale said ... this was typical june weather last year at low (1000m) elevation ... usually youd see the inlet and other hills at this point ...

this was just a day hike ... but i slipped 3 times in those muddy rivers we call trails here ... and ended up soaking wet

imagine this every single day ... with continuous non stop rain every single day





and here's last feb during the olympics on cypress .... i couldnt see us win the gold in the raind and fog ... but i got to sing O Canada !!!

I agree with the other Doug's post pretty much whole-heartedly.(Note: my name is also Doug) I to have spent all my life playing and working outside in western Washington, and I have used both down and synthetic clothing and sleeping bags.

There will be trips where it will be practically impossible to dry anything. Careful management will keep anything from ever getting soaked, but everything will be damp. I've gotten by for several years now with a down bag. It's not hard to keep it dry while it's packed but when you put your damp self inside of it when surrounded by a damp world, well, moisture has a way of getting everywhere.

I would say what will work best is largely dependent on how long of a trip you want to take and how much time and energy you are willing to expend trying to make your gear work. If you only take short trips a down bag will pretty much always be viable with proper care. Down clothing will to but with a lot more care.

If your trip is more mission than wander, and you will be struggling to accomplish something much more consuming than merely being there (my background is in search and rescue and alpine climbing) than you will probably find yourself using less and less down gear. You will spend less time and energy caring for your equipment, and you will be able to use your equipment very differently if you use more synthetic gear, especially synthetic clothing.

I will sometimes do a winter approach where I move fast enough to soak a light base-layer shirt with sweat, even though it's all I'm wearing in mid-20's weather. I than layer up to start climbing more technical ground and belaying, accumulate enough warmth in my clothing layers to dry my base layer back out. If you do this with a down coat it will deflate and be of little use for the rest of the trip, but the right synthetic coat will keep doing this cycle all through a multi-day trip.

Synthetic sleeping systems can let you crawl into bed wearing everything, with all of your accumulated moisture for the day, and wake up the next morning with everything dry (in moderate temps that is, if it's really cold you can still have moisture accumulate in your bag). Sometimes this ability of your equipment to help you manage moisture will let you do things that would have been impossible if you had need to manage all of your sweat and layering very carefully. Being able to put on a belay parka over everything, including your shell, will make it usable in situations where extensive layering changes are impossible or inconvenient as well as saving time.

Personally, I use all synthetic clothes and a down bag most of the time, and that works out fairly well in terms of weight, pack space, and usability. I am very interested in the growing realm of lighter synthetic sleep systems though. If I had to do a lot of long backpacking in the Hoh rainforest I think I would travel without any feathers though. The "cold sauna" is really the realm of fleece and synthetic sleeping bags (and big tarps and wood fires, for that matter).

While Dale makes valid points about the rather challenging weather that can be experienced in our fine state, I respectfully disagree with the claim that, “for anything in the upper left hand corner of the map of North America, down sucks.”

Really? Cmon. I have a lot of respect for Dale’s experience, but that was a gross generalization. Sure, in the Hoh Valley where it rains 135 inches a year on average, I’d likely pass on down if I were there for a week in the spring (or even a long trip on the coast). But for a lot of the terrain, I’d take down without hesitation, even on longer trips. It is lighter, far more compressible and works well in most, but not all, circumstances.

I completely agree that if the Olympics and west side of the Cascades are socked in for a week, things can be pretty wet. And that can be a signigficant problem for down bags, as Dale argued. But it isn't always wet, Washington has a lot of different climates as your mentioned, and during backpacking season, the weather can be quite lovely, even in areas prone to more precipitation. So down bags can make sense.

I think that tarps and tarptents are pretty neat, but must admit to being less than impressed by the net result of living out of one after a week of rainy, cold weather. To me, the down problem in wet conditions is often exacerbated by living in a shelter prone to serious condensation.

Dale, and anyone else, how do you deal with the bulk of a synthetic bag? If it were not for the bulk compared to down, I might carry mine more often. When facing tougher conditions for prolonged periods, I generally opt for the double-wall tent and a down bag rather than a single-wall and the synthetic. Double-wall tents generally deal more effectively with condensation than do single wall tents that don't have adequate air flow. My preference probably has everything to do with the fact tht the double wall tent and a down bag seems to be a better fit in my pack than the single wall tent and a synthetic bag. If less bulky synthetics were out there, I would probably give synthetic bags a better shot.

Dale, what is your usual setup when you expect challenging weather?

Dirk

Edited by dirk9827 on 01/25/2011 00:55:38 MST.

Not heavy, not bulky. That's what I use, combined with Cocoon jacket and pants. I love the stuff.

You are right that we have lovely weather! I think you may be implying that the mist of a multi-day drizzle or a Hoh river downpour is not lovely, but I LOVE this weather. Maybe it's just because I grew up with the stuff. Sure we have many dry, sunny days but high humidity is very common and has to be considered.

Still, lots of people use down here due to exactly the reasons mentions- compressibility and weight. I own 2 synthetic bags and 2 down bags. When using down I blend it with all synthetic clothing and insulation jacket and pants. It works.

In long, deep cold trips to the Arctic and such, the problem is always the moisture from your body accumulating in the down. The solution that many use here is vapor barrier clothing or a vb liner. That's a great solution in those situations. I often use vapor barrier socks when sleeping here in winter.

My setups:

very warm- light Cocoon quilt
normal summer- light Cocoon quilt with Cocoon jacket and pants
colder- heavy Cocoon quilt (or two layered) with jacket and pants
Colder- Valandre Mirage down bag with Cocoon jacket and pants
winter/igloo/snow cave- Feathered Friends 0 bag with Cocoon jacket, pants, and Patagonia synthetic jacket

not "down" playing syn :), as it's certainly a viable choice and frankly sometimes the better choice, BUT saying down isn't a viable option in the PNW is, well.... wrong. The 100's (1,000's?) of folks that have completed the trek through the entire length of Oregon and Washington (and that small state of California!) using down as their sleeping system can't be wrong or were just simply lucky. Length of trip- can't be too much longer of a trip than that. Those folks made a calculated decision on what sleep system would serve them best and used techniques that insured their decision wasn't going to bite them.

I think the strategy of using some syn clothing in conjunction with down is solid. I also think that if you know it's going to be wet, miserable s.o.b. and you have a syn bag in your lineup- then that would be a great time to break it out :)

One apparent assumption in much of this discussion is that moisture vapor from one's body will get trapped/absorbed in the down insulation but won't in the synthetic insulation. Or, that less of it will get trapped/absorbed.

The net effect then being that more of the moisture moves through the bag/garment to the exterior.

Is that assumption accurate? Are there hard data that support this assumption?

What is the % difference in the amount of moisture trapped/absorbed by the down versus what is trapped/absorbed by the synthetic. Yes, I know, that depends on many variables, including the type of synthetic, etc.

It is not as if synthetics don't trap/absorb water. They surely do and can get soaking wet. I have a Patagonia MicroPuff vest that I use alot, but it certainly does trap/absorb moisture from my body. And, when it does it loses loft and insulating value.

So, is this really a two-pronged analysis: First, to compare the amount of moisture trapped/absorbed by down vs. synthetic. And second, which of the insulations then dry quicker?

Cheers,

Bryan

should you have down clothing and synth sleeping bag or vice versa?

I do a lot of winter backpacking in Oregon and Washington - good description Dale

But when you set up your tent it doesn't matter that much, just keep your warm clothes dry in your pack. Lightweight nylon shirt and pants that got wet hiking during the day dry off quickly from body heat regardless of weather.

I use synth sleeping bag and vest, but when it gets down to 20F or so, the amount of synth required to stay warm gets very bulky and heavy. I made a down vest and it's half as heavy and bulky for the same warmth. I've only used it on a few trips so I gues I'll find out how well it works.

Mike said:
"do a little impromptu survey of past PCT thru hikers, I think you'd find that the overwhelming majority used down bags and I'm guessing that most wouldn't change that- practice good technique in keeping it dry (just like you would a syn bag!)"


I thru-hiked the PCT, and I live in WA state. I sort of see both sides of this discussion; I think it's situational. Not to disagree with Mike here, but I'll point out that overall the PCT is quite a dry trail. WA in particular is renowned among PCT hikers as being wet and cold, but naturally it can vary. It was wet my year, and yes, I did use a down bag throughout; my 32F bag was sufficient for WA, didn't bother switching back. Of course thru-hikers aren't continuously hiking, folks get off trail and dry things out, and even sometimes stay off trail a bit and hang out hoping the weather will improve. We WA natives know that this is often a vain hope; as someone else pointed out, you can sometimes be getting quite wet from vegetation long after the last rain in periods where nothing dries out.

But overall I think it really is situational.

In warmer weather I like down because the stakes are lower (less likely to really get hypothermic), and down is lighter and less bulky. Even when it's quite wet I can generally stay warm enough and keep the down dry enough with care until the trip ends or I get some time off somehow to dry stuff out.

In colder weather on short trips I like down for the same reasons, as someone else also pointed out, you're not out for that long, and at least everything is dry starting out, just take care.

I have no experience at extended cold weather trips. I guess the early part of the AT last year was sort of that, but again, I was going into towns periodically where I could dry things.

I think that extended cold weather trips (in high humidity areas) would be just really hard however you go. Maybe the solution then is to use a pulk and accept bulkier and heavier gear to deal with conditions. And of course, hope for future advances in synthetic insulation!

Edited by brianle on 01/25/2011 09:42:07 MST.

I live in Washington's Cascade foothills - on the we(s)t side. My neighborhood gets around 100" in a busy year. 90% of my backpacking and hiking is on the west side of the state and all of my insulation is down. I think Doug's caveat on trip length is valid, but most of my trips are a week or less and usually only 3-4 days. Being even moderately careful keeps my down warm and fluffy. I think a down bag is a super easy decision unless you're a die-hard tarper, but there aren't many on this side of the state :) I worry more about my jackets, but I'm rarely in a down jacket if it's raining. Just too warm. If it's cold enough for a down jacket, it's too cold for rain. Especially if I'm moving, a merino shirt/windshirt combo is fine or worst case a rainjacket. Down jacket then becomes an in-camp only item where - presumably - I'm sheltered.

In the end it really comes down to your style of backpacking and your tolerance/confidence regarding risk. I will say that I have slept exactly ONE night in a soaking wet bag on the Olympic Coast. It was synthetic, and I froze my butt off and was miserable all night. They're not that great when wet, either. The point is to not get your insulation wet - regardless of what it's made of.

jerry ...

it depends on what yr looking for ... i use some thinner down and synth clothing and a synth bag, with a synth bag i can just hop right into the sack with a hawt nalgene and itll all be dry the next day ... no need to worry about body moisture or condensation

using a down bag and synth clothing does require you to be more careful, rather than sleeping with your synth clothing inside the bag, you place it on top of the bag ... hopefully this moves the dew point that could have been in the bag to the synth clothing, and protect against condensation drip ... getting the synth clothing a bit damp isnt a big deal since you can jut wear it dry with a hawt nalgene or while moving

each requires slightly different techniques ...

I agree with Brian (and Doug before that) it is situational. Our summers are not nearly as wet as people assume. Even in the rain forest, you can get day after day of sunshine. Besides, with the really long days, all you need is a few hours to dry everything out. The longer you go, the more you may want synthetic. It is harder to predict the weather a week ahead of time, and moisture can accumulate. However, I only use a down bag now, and used it for an eight day trip this year. Of course, that was in August in the Cascades, not up the Hoh in November.

I would say that I still prefer synthetic clothing over down. It is nice to not have to worry about my own moisture messing up things. I can push myself to the point of sweating and not worry about it. In fact, I use fleece exclusively for day hiking in the summer (along with a wind shirt). Fleece breathes really well, so I don't paying the extra weight penalty for the convenience and added range of fleece.

I do think the term "warm when wet" is false. A better term might be "warmer if damp". Or maybe "warmer if damp and quicker drying".

I am wondering why one would jepordize the integrity of a down bag by wearing wet clothes in it.I was taught by more experienced hikers than me to never sleep in the clothes I wear to hike is because of the moisture wicking heat from the body issue. I always have a set of dry sleeping clothes that are only worn in my bag and only when I am ready to sleep or be in my tent the rest of the night. Could be a set of capilene or in hot weather boxers and a tank top. My thought are that in wet climates it would be better to pack the extra weight of spare socks and shirt than depend on my down bag as a dryer.

Not necessarily quicker drying--see this article: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/wet_weather_performance_down_vs_synth_vests.html

At least in this limited test, the down dried faster! I'd love to see a more comprehensive test!

Edited by hikinggranny on 01/26/2011 09:34:34 MST.

I've been reading all of these post with great interest. The last week of April will be my first experience in the PNW. Hoh River Trail. This is what I think will work based on what I've been reading from these very helpful post.

Double wall tent (Eureka Spitfire instead of Contrail)
Down bag (not sure if 32 degree or 15 degree) with set of capilene to be worn only for sleeping. All packed in waterproof bag inside of waterproof pack liner.

Clothing insulation : Teramar wool/silk base layer, synthetic t shirt , quick dry pants, 200 polartec vest, Thermawrap jacket , packlite gor tex rain shell and gortex pants, dry socks for each day on the trail.

We will be on the trail most likely 4 days. I have hiked the Smokies ( they are also a rainforest) and live in the deep south so I understand wet and humidity.

It seems the opinions are split on down vs syn and if I need to I can buy a syn but I'd rather use what I have.

Mary, way to post some actual data!

I think this whole thread ties in nicely with the front page article right now about the "Vortex of Fear".

Yes, there are some cases where your insulation are going to get a bit damp and possibly be somewhat compromised. I suggest you get some skills to enable you to use your sleeping bag without getting it excessively wet. If you're getting any moisture on your bag other than whatever you sweat/condense in the night, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. Camp under trees to minimize condensation. Don't lock your shelter down so tight you don't get any air movement.

So here's my anecdotal evidence: Down rules. I hiked the West Coast Trail twice this year, spring and fall, barely saw the sun at all on either trip (probably 1 hour in total). The foot of my down bag was a little damp at one point, but it still got the job done. I got to save a bunch of weight/space and snuggle into my awesome puffy bag at the end of every day. My friends with stringy synth bags cried all night because their huge lumpy bags suffocated them and didn't keep them warm. They may also attract mice and GRIZZLY BEARS.

NB: your experience may differ from mine. I'm just saying, like so much other lightweight gear, down requires you to have skills to make up for its deficiencies. It is not magic.

OK, I see the actual topic was exclusively about down OUTERWEAR. In that case, I tend to agree - I don't really wear any insulated outerwear except in my tent. Seems obvious that you wouldn't want to wear down or synthetic insulation in the pouring rain? If it's hovering around zero just keep hiking until it stops raining or you camp. Once you're camped, get in the tent and don't get out :)

@Rhonda: I think you'll be fine. A double walled tent makes things much easier. With the Capilene, I would probably go with the 32 degree bag. Then again, the weight difference is probably fairly small between the bags, so maybe the bigger bag is better. Maybe it depends on the pad you use (a warmer pad can be the difference). Regardless, I certainly wouldn't buy anything else. Even if you use the lighter bag, at worse you will be a little chilly the last night. If it was a really long trip, then I would go with the bigger bag. Of course, the weather can vary quite a bit that time of year so maybe the best thing is to check the forecast before going and then pick a bag. Four day forecasts are usually pretty reliable (8 day forecasts are a whole different story).

This is best source that I know of for weather prediction in the area: http://www.atmos.washington.edu/data/zone_report.KSEW.html and http://www.atmos.washington.edu/data/disc_report.html
The first is a standard report (which plenty of other people will repeat). The second is the discussion of the report. Basically, the meteorologists look at a bunch of computer models and then make their official prediction. By reading the discussion, you get a good idea of the confidence. Often times, they feel like changing their mind, but don't want to do it yet, because they think they might have to change their mind again. Anyway, knowing their confidence level can make a big difference.

Regarding single wall tents in the PNW:

I live in Washington and spend 90% of my backpacking here. I spend about 75% of those nights in single wall tents (Gossamer Gear/Tarptent Squall Classic, Tarptent Sublite Tyvek, Tarptent RAinshadow 2, Golite Shangri La 5) and it works just fine. You have to keep condensation in mind and exercise caution but I've had great luck. Even using a Tarptent in a downpour on the Olympic coast has been fine.

Sure, a double wall tent is a bit easier in the condensation realm, but I've had no issues big enough that would make me switch to double wall.

It's probably similar to the down conversation. Anything works here- it's just how you use it and what you're comfortable with. Personally, I mitigate condensation concerns by using synthetic insulation with my single wall tents. If I brush against the side of the tent, it doesn't matter as much. Works for me but there are certainly lots of ways to deal with it.

That said, I once owned a Black Diamond single wall with Epic fabric. I found that to be a very poor performer in constant sprinkles with no relief. I've not found this to be the same with eVent, silnylon, cuben, spinnaker, Tyvek, or Gore Tex single walls. I used to be the shelter editor here at BPL so I got to try many, many shelters in our worst conditions and while I loved the Epic for southwestern thunderstorms, I parted ways with the tent quickly after living with it on the coast for a week.

That said, a double wall tent with a mesh inner and no vents can be worse than a well vented single wall tent, as the rain drips through the mesh onto your bag...

Cheers,
Doug

I notice you mention an eVent tent. What tent would that be rather than a bivy? How would you rate current breathable single wall "tents" against something like the Sierra Designs Divine Lightning , an early goretex model?

Doug - thanks for posting some pics of your sleeping bags and description of your setup. Much appreciated. I find this a really interesting thread - I am glad there is a distinction made between the climate of the PNW and say of California.

On the double wall with the mesh inner (e.g. The Hubba) - I have had better success with this in rain than I've had with say, a single wall tarpent. Yeah, you get a few drips, but the sag factor of silnylon has probably been the bigger issue for me personally and the fact I end up moving around so much at night. I am eager to try some other tent materials that don't sag as much when wet. I do restake before conking out, but generally by morning the once taut tent looks a bit sad....

Ross, thanks for that link, very helpul. I enjoy your posts very much, always quite informative.

Finally, I am glad to see so many passionate backpackers from the PNW. Happy Trails to you all, I hope we get to meet on the trail sometime soon.

Dirk

[RAB HAS 2 Event “shelters” tall enough that you can sit up inside]:
[TENT 1]: Summit Mountain Bivi: Single skin, 2 person mountaineering shelter with increased headroom
Weight:2000g/71oz (+1000g/35oz with optional porch)
• Highly breathable Exchange Lite™ fabric [Event]
• 10000mm laminated nylon waterproof bathtub base
• Internally pitched DAC 8.84mm Aluminium poles
• 2 sealed ‘donut link’ tie in point, located at top and side
• 4 internal pockets
• Mosquito net door
• Glow in the dark zip pullers
• Available with removable porch adding 140cm length for gear storage
size: 2220 x 1200mm base, 1000mm height
[TENT 2]:
Summit Superlite BiviSingle skin, 2 person lightweight, low profile mountaineering shelter Weight:1500g/53oz
• Highly breathable Exchange Lite™ eVent® fabric
• 10000mm laminated lightweight ripstop nylon waterproof bathtub base
• Internally pitched DAC 8.84mm Aluminium poles
• 1 sealed ‘donut link’ tie in point, located at top
• Rear snow collection drawcord porthole
• 1 internal pocket
• Glow in the dark zip pullers
• Aluminium pegs
size: 2220 x 1200mm base, 700mm height

I agree - silnylon - in the morning it's all droopy

I think maybe it droops as it gets cold also

Polyester or Cuben would be better

Stretchy guy lines help

I couldn't add much more except that I don't even own a synthetic bag or puffy and I almost exclusively hike in the Olympics. Summer is pretty dry and transitional seasons I'm not out for more than a weekend anyway so I've never even considered buying synthetic. Down works great and it isn't that hard to keep it dry.

If I were to heavy duty mountaineering or plan extended trips for weeks where I knew it was going to be wet and cold.... I'd consider buying a synthetic bag for that trip.

Thanks to ROBERT TANGEN for the heads up on the Rab eVent "bivys" . This article discusses them and has good photos and specs and a fair review of the legal issues involved with them. Without the vestibule they look risky in terms of the doors letting moisture in. And the cost is nothing to sneeze at. The Sierra Designs Divine Light I have has a nicer entrance better suited to cooking , but it's fabric isn't as good as the eVent. http://www.anatolyivanov.com/prose/en/AI.7.00143/

Edited by Meander on 01/27/2011 17:34:17 MST.

Having spent weeks in the rain with down; having spent said weeks in a single wall tent, I have many experiences.

There is rain, and then there is RAIN. Others have gone over and over keeping your pack dry and said clothes in said pack dry. Ditto on what they said.

Regarding Down, you NEVER actually wear down while walking/hiking as its WAY too hot unless you are WAY up somewhere high where its 0 or below, and even then... Your options are either move fast and strip down to keep cool, or move slow and DON't Sweat.

So, Down as a camping option, and keeping warm at belay. Is what we are really talking about. On belay, its simple, either you are running off the mountain because its raining which is damned dangerous as the rocks will be flying or its no raining and you are just throwing on said down jacket to stay warm. Generally while sitting at belay you won't be steaming your down coat. If you do open it up, and use jacket as a "bellows" to pump said water vapor out. If you plan on doing this in the snow, make sure its outter shell fabric is "waterproof" or breathable. Don't care which. One side breathable is fine by me. Turn it inside out to "dry".

Ok, Camping with down during extended RAIN. If its warm rain, we don't have a problem as drying out your clothes from sweat inside said sleeping bag is fairly straight forward as you won't have been wearing hardly any to start with. NOW, DON't GET TOO WARM as you will then SWEAT ADDING water to said sleeping bag.

Hiking in Cold rain, well to start with, hike fast, keeps you warm, wear not much, otherwise hike slow, don't sweat, because drying out is difficult. As others have said, if you are warm, YOU ARE WEARING TOO MUCH! At these high humidity cold temperature conditions, drying anything is difficult.

The worst I ever had with down was we had to pitch our squal2 on a 30% slope in the pickets in high humidity cold conditions and huddled for 2 days while it Poured, sleeted, snowed on us. Because of the awkward position of said tent our bags would slide down and we would contact the sides of the single wall tent. This got the toes of our bags wet, but otherwise wasn't too bad. One night on a regular flat spot after 2 nights of horrid conditions and they were dried out again by our body heat.

Likewise I have been in Coastal British Columbia in a modified Tarptent Cloudburst 2 for a week straight of solid rain. Our down bags remained perfectly warm and puffy. If you are too warm, open the bag if you are waiting out the rain.

If we are talking snow conditions, Down is fine as well. Get in sleeping bag with wet clothes, take wet clothes from sweat off put dry on. Put Vapor Barrier clothes on if they aren't already. BIG DEAL. Then warm said bag up, place wet clothes on top of your chest/around your chest and by morning they will be dry. Now, if your sleeping system is a "barely" this won't really work as well at temperatures close to freezing.

Temperatures close to freezing are the worse as the humidity can be extremely high. Low temps are far easier to deal with than near freezing and high humidity.

Been in a double wall tent once in a rainstorm, but only because someone else brought it along.

If you plan on wearing clothes while it rains, or sweating while hiking/climbing can't say enough about fleece/polyester and vapor barrier socks/gloves liners and even VB shirt/pants. VB you can overheat in so be careful. Fleece/polyester hold their loft while soaked because they don't absorb water like a natural fiber. Likewise they are not as warm as a natural fiber when they are dry though some of the new fibers are darned close!

Everything is Fleece/Polyester except my sleeping bag and Belay jacket. I see no reason to change this. Only reason I see for anyone to buy something like a Synthetic fiber BBag or Belay Jacket is because of cost.

For bombing around on the weekend? Can't beat the cost of synthetic sleeping bags. They are practically free. Heavy, but near free. As a kid, I took a big ol' tarp, twine, and a synthetic sleeping bag in a black garbage sack. I still carry a tarp quite often as its far more enjoyable to use in winter as it gives more area to spread out in during bad weather. Bring groundsheet as well along with a snowshovel for a snowcave.

PS. Diane, don't who "taught" your course, but they are utterly clueless. Probably pulling a giant CYA mentality that is so prevalent in today's lawyer environment as synthetic will dry out "slightly" faster than down. Claiming they are warmier when wet is Bull Pucky. Only thing warmer when wet is WOOL. CYA... Just like every damned hammer comes with a warning sticker on that claims, that you need to wear eye protection to nail a nail... Sure... Said instructors all have down bags I betcha as well.

Edited by footeab on 01/27/2011 17:23:23 MST.

"Likewise I have been in Coastal British Columbia in a modified Tarptent Cloudburst 2 for a week straight of solid rain. Our down bags remained perfectly warm and puffy. If you are too warm, open the bag if you are waiting out the rain. "

Mine didn't. No rain leaked in, but the sheer humidity associated with a week of rain will collapse any down sleep 'system' unless you are able to have some sort of reprieve in the weather to dry the items out.

Great post guys. I am learning so much that will be helpful on my hike.

Question...how would a silk liner inside my down bag affect the moisture? would it work like a vapor barrier?

>Question...how would a silk liner inside my down bag affect the moisture? would it work like a vapor barrier?

Unfortunately not at all. You need something that is completely impenetrable by water and water vapor.

There is potential that a silk liner will add to the problem by upping the temp rating for the bag by a few degrees, possibly making you sleep warmer, thus creating more sweat---but that's pure speculation on my part.

A great (and cheap) way to see if you'd like a VBL: You'll need two large garbage bags. Cut the end out of one of them, and duct tape them together to create one long bag that you can sleep in.

Edited by T.L. on 01/27/2011 18:09:26 MST.

Lots of people do use down in wet climates and it works fine most of the time. However, if I was doing a longer trip, esp in a single wall tent, and expecting many days of solid rain then I would give serious consideration to synthetics. Not because you can't keep down gear dry, but because of moisture build up in the bag.

Bags/sleep system in coastal BC if going mountain climbing up high have to be good for 0F. So a little loss of loft is no big deal. We were right on the line between snow/rain as well(worst possible conditions). Biggest deal for such conditions is like I said, make sure you are not too warm in your sleeping bag as you will sweat out your sleeping bag if you are waiting out the rain. If its warmer, you probably jumped into your bag with wet clothes and chilled your body by wearing wet socks and your metabolism dropped creating little body heat? Likewise when you stop and are drying out, you must do so carefully. Get all that thermal mass warm, yourself included and pump said water out. heat it up, pump bag creating large drafts, close bag, heat up all that water vapor, pump.

Likewise erect your tent, keep your bags compressed and dry out your gear by simply wearing it inside the tent. Keep warm by sit ups/push ups if you have to. Then wear to bed. Very important to change to dry clothes so your body stays warm and keeps pumping heat out, but not sweating.

We had no reprieve at all for the several times I have waited out a week of rain. Coastal BC reprieves in rain are about 3 hours long, not nearly long enough for the brush to dry out. In those conditions either you stay in camp, or strip down to your shorts and either go for it, getting no clothes wet, or put on rain gear over this soaking said raingear but getting nothing else wet. Now, if you go for it, one is likely to get your PACK soaked and in this case your sleeping bag even if its in a standard stuff sack sold with said sleeping bags, will get wet from transfer of humidity if not outright liquid water from openings such as zippers etc. In this instance, Vapor Barrier socks/shirt etc work well as well as pack liners. Feels rather funny for the first 5 minutes worn till things even out. I have only recently started using VB, and the above experiences are without said VB.

typical rain garb for brushy areas, are boots, no socks, gaitors, No pants, or rainshell if its brushy, no underwear, swimtrunks, undershirt tightfitting, wool as its wet when warm, though dries slower, or polypro, rainshell, no hat, or hat, if on trail one can think about an umbrella. With VB always wear VB socks...

Does this help at all?

Rhonda- no the silk is not a vb- in fact it's quite breathable. To imagine a vapor barrier think silnylon, cuben, or plastic bag. All silk does from what I understand is keep your bag clean and give a more comfy feeling. Not much in insulation there and no vb for sure.

RE: sagging silnylon. Yes, par for the course. My spinnaker GGear/Tarprent Squall Classic sags less, as have cuben tents/tarps. Adjustable guylines are good and adding a bungee at the attachment helps too. Attaching the guyline to a springy tree branch and putting some spring in the system also helps avoid this.

Really nice single wall in the heavy rain is the Tarptent Rainshadow 2 for 2 people. It's well sized for 3 people and with 2 you have the space to sit out a long storm in comfort. No chance of hitting the walls and at 2.5 pounds it's still much lighter than most double walls with half the space. Oh- you can jack up the front with extend-able trekking poles too to make a palace. :-)

Re: eVent "tent"- yes, bivy is the correct term. But these are very "tent-like":

Rab eVent bivy: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/2007_rab_summit_extreme_tent_review.html

Integral Designs eVent bivy: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/integral_designs_wedge_bivy_review.html

No longer available Nemo Tenshi eVent- a true full-height tent: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/nemo_tenshi_tent_review.html

I never owned an older Gore-Tex tent. But I did review this and it was great, but not quite as great as eVent in breathability:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/outdoor_designs_summit_extreme_tent_review.html

Rhonda- no the silk is not a vb- in fact it's quite breathable. To imagine a vapor barrier think silnylon, cuben, or plastic bag

Thanks for the comment. So I could make a VB out of my old silnylon tarp? Might be a good project. I guess it is helpful that my 32 degree bag has a zipper at the foot box that acts as a vent. Better to sleep cooler than warmer is what I am hearing.

Edited by rrouyer on 01/27/2011 19:27:26 MST.

>"Down is suitable for any environment"

Guess I should admit up front that some of the posts really frosted me.
Note that the OP asked only about "outerwear."

Once on a Long Trail hike for 7 days in the early spring in northern Vermont, it rained constantly. So much that after a few days, even with rain pants over my boot tops, every half hour or so I had to empty my boots and wring out my sox just to be able to hike. The rain just did not stop for day after night after day. There often were no dry places to step. Were it not for the many shelters on the Trail, I would not have been able to continue. Fortunately, I had a bag and jacket with synthetic insulation, well protected in my pack. It was not so cold as to make the jacket a must while hiking, despite some shivering, so it and the bag just got a little damp. And there are lots of quick exits off the Long Trail. I was lucky.

Previously, on another cold hike on the AT in Maine in similar but not quite so rainy circumstances, my down bag got about the same amount of damp, and became worthless; dangerous actually, because it made me even more vulnerable to the cold.
If unfamiliar with the science, just wrap up in something wet with no insulative value, and see how you feel when exposed to the cold for only a few minutes.

Fortunately, that early AT experience taught me to bring along synthetic insulation, and the later LT hike, while not much fun, was safe and reasonably comfortable. I fully understand why the instructors in Diane's class said what they did, in the interest of the class being safe rather than sorry in wet, exposed mountain environments.

Now that we have much more reliable DWR treatments and WPB materials, if you PAY for them and maintain them, and if you are very experienced and careful, it is possible to keep down sleepwear usable in cold, torrential weather, even when tenting. But while skiing, or hiking mostly in the open, exposed all day to whatever mother nature can throw at you? There are much better insulation alternatives.

Even if you have developed the expertise to use down effectively in such situations, it is not responsible to encourage others, who may be inexperienced, to do so. Especially in our sport, where backcountry huts and shelters are often absent, and an exit may take quite a while.
That's MO, folks.

P.S. Forgot to mention, "hypothermia." If I had not seen hikers with it, and learned how to detect the symptoms in myself, and respond quickly, I doubt very much I'd still be alive today.

Edited by scfhome on 01/27/2011 21:16:59 MST.

>It was not so cold as to make the jacket a must while hiking, despite some shivering, so it and the bag just got a little damp.

How were they packed in your pack? Were they wet from rain, or just the ambient humidity?


> it is possible to keep down sleepwear usable in cold, torrential weather, even when tenting. But while skiing, or hiking mostly in the open, exposed all day to whatever mother nature can throw at you? There are much better insulation alternatives.

Down sleepwear and garments worn in high-energy applications are (or should be) two very different things. Unless I missed it above, I don't think anyone was arguing to wear down clothing while hiking or skiing.

one point most people dont consider is that 900 fill down isnt 900 fill with humidity

it could easily be 700 fill or so with 50% humidity ... with the 90%+ humidity how much insulation is it providing?

hmmmmmm

either way many people will either use down like a religion regardless of what others think ... and many others wont ... same with merino vs. synthetics

like i said its telling that some of the BPL staff (or former staff) do use synthetic in certain situations ... if anyone has the skill to not mess up, itll be them


Ryan Jordan
( ryan - BPL STAFF - M)

Locale:
Greater Yellowstone

NEW Re: Re: Re: Introduction to Outdoor Retailer Summer Market 2008 on 08/10/2008 08:04:56 MDT

Bill et al.,

I spoke at length with IDFL yesterday about down testing.

None of their tests stimulate real world testing. 900 fp in a test is going to be a pipe dream in the field, because they steam wash and dry the down to nearly zero humidity before doing the test. Ironically, this most recent iteration of test methods was designed to determine the maximum possible fill power for down rather than what it will look like in the field.

Interestingly as a side note, we did some 900 fp testing of down a few years ago on two manufacturer's 900 bags. We cut the bags open and sent them to IDFL. Neither made the claimed 900 spec (they tested 830-870 using the steam method). What was more dramatic was that when each down (which clearly came from different sources as evidenced by visual inspection) was subjected to 50% humidity, the differences were pretty dramatic. One bag tested at 770 fp, the other at 680 fp. It seems that at least these two sources of 900 down had feathers in it that were not resilient in response to humidity.

The kicker is that we ran the same test next to down taken from a manufacturer's 750 fp bag. at 50% humidity, the fp was 720. Why? It had more feathers that were stiff enough to preserve the loft in moist conditions.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=39920

Nice info, Eric.

Not that us consumers will ever get it, but it'd be great if they required some sort of "humidity rating" on insulating pieces of gear as well. Maybe something to the effect of:

0%=900fp=30F
25%=800fp=33F
50%= 750fp=36F
75%=700fp=40F
100%=600fp=43F

Obviously I just pulled those numbers out my butt, but you get the idea.

EDIT: Noticed that several posted the humidity factor of down and loss of thermal efficiency. Of course synthetic also loses thermal efficiency. And add in the fact that when your body temperature heats the bag up, said thermal efficiency comes back as the water vapor leaves. Took too long posting this as I went away and came back and hit post and then saw several other very good posts above this.

If you were referring to my posts as to why Down is ok in rain, I think you might have missed a very key point. Not that I blatantly typed said point, rather a point that is not obvious at a quick glance.

In rain, as you typed, BBags get humid and trap moisture. You can't get away from that fact. To dry them out you have to use your body heat every night. If you expect 30 degrees and take a 30 degree down bag you won't have as much insulation as you thought due to said humidity build up and the ability to stay warm is hard in rainy conditions on top of that as what you will be wearing will also be wet unless you take 2 sets of underclothes, or baselayer clothing, which everyone here in the ol' PNW does.

If you have a Barely there sleep system for said temperatures and then add rain and humidity, drying said down sleep system out is difficult to do. Why? Because there is less "dry" or even semi-dry insulation to trap said heat and warm up the entire bag and you. Certain sections of said BBAG will let more heat out. Since your body only produces "x" Watts of heat a BBAG with less available insulation will not heat up and will therefore not dry the sleeping bag out. It is also not a linear relationship either. If you really want to know, open a Heat Transfer book.

So, one needs a sleep system that surpasses the temperature point to take into effect high humidity and rain. Generally around 30F-40F is the high humidity point, or worst conditions. I have personally always used down bags in lots and Lots and LOTS of rain. Of course I need said extra temperature rating along with my clothes for much colder temps at higher elevations and this gets me through the hypothermia 30-40F points. Heck, I have routinely camped outside in light rain without a tarp till we finally gave up and went home, but said bag also had Goretex face fabric, but it most certainly was not seam taped, this does not count as it was hardly backpacking "light". Though I was camping for a weekend with no shelter, so I suppose I "saved" weight. Would have been happier with a shelter and a lighter bag though as playing cards in the rain, truly sucks. Add even a tarp and it would have been enjoyable even with only 24" height from stacked rocks and ice axes.

Now, I have also been stupid and tried sleeping in just my down jacket and a bivy bag. Sure enough, down jacket lost its insulation power as it got humid and damp and then I got really really really cold. But take same humidity and dampness that was in my jacket and insert it into a down bag good for "20F" while its pouring rain out and even though said bag is heavy with humidity it has the ability to trap said body heat I generated and dry itself out as it doesn't have a giant seam at the waist.

PS. I used to work outside in the rain day in and day out at a greenhouse and nursery. Why I know for a fact that several name brand Goretex shoes/boots are not waterproof. Rather cheap work boots with good ol' wax is light years better. I got to the point where unless it was raining hard, I would just wear fleece 200 and after it stopped raining between my body heat from working hard and how little water the fleece retained, it would be dry in 2-3 hours. No DWR on said fleece. No shaking out of said fleece. Now if it was raining hard, I would strip down to shorts and a T-Shirt and yellow bellied rubber waterproof pants and waterproof top. I would be drenched in sweat if I had to run and work hard even in 40F pouring rain. But, I would have dry clothes later.

Rain, if you move in it, take as many clothes off as possible and either just get wet, or move slow and don't sweat.
Snow, just wear as few clothes as possible and don't sweat.

In either case you gotta watch for hypothermia. Why its better to be cold and know it, keeping dry clothes in your pack than to wear said clothes getting them wet and have nothing to put on when the temperature drops further yet.

I have used synthetic bags as well. When I had no money, I would hike with a coleman polyester bag. They would get wet just as readily as a down bag and they were just as hopless when it came to insulating power. I also never saw them drying out much faster than down. The difference is that Down losses its insulating power faster for the same amount of wetted bag as down feathers clump up when they get wet.

I have personally not used modern synthetic sleeping bags. I have rubbed "elbows" with them. Though I remember one friend buying one and immedietely sending it back as it was not only over a pound heavier, but also far far bulkier and hard to pack.

I would admit that if you are going to be using a bivy bag where one is far more likely to rub against condensation or no bivy bag at all I would grab a synthetic bag as they absorb less water than down, thus your body heat has to evaporate less water.

BUT: I don't know about you, but I don't plan on hiking in the rain for weeks on end. I know, some poor folks hiking the last stages of the PCT in Sept/Oct here in WA can get smashed. Read several reports like that.

PS. Want dry feet in the rain? Get real leather boots that have been sealed with wax. Need such contraptions for snow anyways. I know anathema to the light weight tennis shoe only crowd. Goretex lined shoes/boots are not waterproof. Water will seep in at the bottom where its stitched into the sole to start with and second of all, if you aren't wearing VB socks in the rain, then your feet continue to sweat, soaking said socks/shoes even more. In non rain weather on leather shoes, your feet actually evaporate quite a bit of water vapor out through said leather.

For an excellent write up on Vapor Barrier and why you NEED it. Look at warmlite.com and click vapor barrier. It is long, but if you Plough through it to the end, you will learn several useful things. I know I did.

PPS. To the OP. I have done plenty of snowshoeing and winter climbing in the PNW. If you limit yourself to low valleys then the humidity is far higher as the temperatures will be warmer and closer to 32F. The higher you get, the better it is. As winter ends and spring begins, you can get very high humidity at high elevations as well as low. Usually this is not the case in the winter.

Stirs the pot and checks to see if the mud is properly distributed for maximum murkiness. Yup, murkier.

Edited by footeab on 01/27/2011 23:20:53 MST.

I just wore VaprThrms on a 3 night trip around Crater Lake. Temps 10-45! I never took off those VBLs once and my feet were always comfy. No socks, just VbL and boot. Add a Primaloft over booty at night.

Before too much thread drift by me- I'm thinking of trying VBLs to sleep in even in the mild temps where VBLs aren't 'necessary' such as AK or something.

You guys think the dew alone would kill your bag over a few nights? (assuming you slept in VBLs.

I'm interested in testing the upper limits in temp of VBLs. say a thin wool shirt and a vbl shirt over it... I guess I'm more thinking about hiking

DRIFT- sorry

One comment that I think has been made, but I would like to re-iterate about keeping a sleeping bag dry in wet weather is that a bigger shelter makes this much easier.

Weather you camp in floor less pyramid, a single-wall non-breathable tent, single-wall breathable tent, or a double-wall tent (all of which have condensation at times), if you have enough room to not brush the walls it is much easier to keep your sleeping bag dry. If you have enough room to sit up and cook and hang out inside than it is easier to keep everything dry.

+++++++++++1 Vote here. This is especially true on most tarp style tents as they generally don't pull their sides out all that well on the super light models that I have sen. I have had to modify several for just this reason. Modified our Tarptent Cloudburst 2 for an extra middle pole and the ability to take this tent into winter storm conditions.

I too am curious about using VBLs outside of their normal low-low comfort range. I'll be playing with an RBH VBL bag liner and my quilt, plus an RBH NTS shirt, and of course the VBL socks. Since the mid-Atlantic doesn't get and stay as cold as some of the areas you others backpack in, I want to see if VBLs can be used longer into the shoulder seasons. In another thread we worried about the loft of quilts in the winter, and the JRB High Sierra in particular, so I want to see how "lofty" I can keep my winter quilt expectations.

I got some "fuzzy stuff" from warmlite and made a vapor barrier pants and long sleeve shirt.

Used it on a few trips in Oregon/Washington, temperatures down to 30F,

My conclusion was at those temperatures vapor barrier didn't do much. Lighter, non vapor barrier pants and shirt were just as warm.

If you have vapor barrier sleeping bag liner, then you can't wear clothes inside to extend temperature range, so you need a heavier sleeping bag, so you end up carrying much more weight.

Warmilte bags are super heavy, but you can be naked in them.

The example given at warmlite.com is for an artic expedition - cold temperatures, many days - for that case vapor barrier is probably critical but way out of my experience or future.

But if you have vapor barrier clothes you can wear other clothes in your bag.

In an attempt at a ghetto vbl I slept in thin wool and thin syn shirts then my light shell then my UL down jacket and was comfortable and warm. -I woke up in the middle of the night cold and put my rain coat under the down and warmed up. I think I had a little micro-climate goin' on

you can easily use yr clothes with a vbl ...

just put them OVER yr bag

I have found it really depends on how much you sweat. This determines the temperature range. I sweat a lot compared to most folks, so the temperature range that VBL is good for is different than the average "Joe". Well, actually those that sweat far less can actually wear it over a wider temperature range assuming its not super humid out in which case this brings both folks down to about the same level I have found. Like Randy who I climb with quite often. He is a bean pole and has far more area in which to convect/radiate heat away from his body than my far thicker heavier boned frame. Also when you wear VB, this decreases the skin area you can sweat from, increasing said sweat rate on said area. Sweating, evaporating water, is the best way to stay cool as our bodies aren't even close to 100% efficient. The more efficient your body is, the wider range you can wear VBL and therefore keep your clothes dry.

Like everything else, person to person, Your Miles May Vary(YMMV). In this case quite a bit.

I have never found something to be Panacea for all conditions and for all persons.

Vapor Barrier experimentation is fascinating. RBH Designs is a great place to start: http://www.rbhdesigns.com/index.cfm

I have a pair of RBH VB socks that I wear with Gore Tex running shoes for multi-night igloo trips and it totally works. I also have a pair of RBH gloves and they work amazingly well.

Definitely a clammy environment so a VB bag liner will add a lot of moisture to anything on the inside. I've never tried VB beyond socks and gloves but have been very curious about VB clothing worn under insulation inside a lighter weight bag.

For those that have no experience with vapor barrier stuff, do this. Go to bed tonight with socks on- one plain and the other with a plastic bag underneath the sock. Watch what happens.

Vapor barrier is a widely misunderstood and even more widely underutilized concept. Most of us have been raised on wick moisture from the skin, move it through the layers, and exit via waterproof breathable fabrics. Vapor barriers flip that concept upside down and it's counter to what most of us have experienced.

Travis,

Re: "How were they packed in your pack? Were they wet from rain, or just the ambient humidity?"

In a twist-tie sealed plastic bag inside a stuff sack. They still got damp. The air in the shelters was very humid, damp, with some dripping from roof leaks. Another example; It's late and it's cold - if you leave the shelter several times to p**, do you put the rain shell on over the puffy jacket - oh, but the rain shell is wet inside, from either hours of rain, or condensation from hiking. An enigma wrapped inside a conundrum ... etc. A few nights were in a tent, and the inside walls were quite damp, the fly soaked and drippy on entry and exit. Waterworld. (Note: My snoring is so bad now, that when a sweet young lady popped into the shelter around 9 PM this last spring, the only kind thing to do was chat a bit, then go out into the rain and put up the tent. And then there was the college outing club in Maine that prided itself on filling the shelters wall to wall squeezed in like sardines (a little reminiscent of the native canadians sleeping together in the novel, Black Robe) - tried to shake them ((the Mainiacs, not the Canadians)) for days - couldn't - used the tent. Fortunately, the rain abated on these other journeys, and all became well.)

Re: "Down sleepwear and garments worn in high-energy applications are (or should be) two very different things. Unless I missed it above, I don't think anyone was arguing to wear down clothing while hiking or skiing."

Won't try to rehash what was argued, but the OP asked about:
"... a snowshoeing/backcountry skiing class, where the instructors both categorically stated that the maritime mountains in Washington and Oregon are NOT country for down outerwear *** So far, we've gotten really lucky, and have not been out on a prolonged hike in completely pouring rain. I know that synthetic vs. down gets thrashed around a lot ..."

If no one was arguing to wear down clothing while hiking or skiing, then GOOD!
Or should I say, "never-mind."

Also, very interesting about the VBL's Tried them when Warmlite first promoted them, and found them very uncomfortable in all applications, but appreciate there are some who find them otherwise. (OK, I really think they are nuts.)

I posted earlier in this thread that I was going to try an RBH sleeping bag VBL liner before the season was out . . . but I actually just returned it and will try an RBH NTS shirt instead, for use both on the trail during the day with minimal insulation and at night with my puffy layers tossed on over the shirt. Not sure yet whether I'll put a thin layer underneath the RBH shirt (Icebreaker 150 or summer-weight synthetic) or not; I think this will be a game-time call. The weather for our outing this weekend will range from 40 degree days to 15 degree nights so I'll be pushing the acknowledged limits of the VBL temp range. I'll let you know how it goes.

In the eastern U.S. or the PNW I'd use down only in a sleeping bag and a camp-only light down jacket like my Eddie Bauer Downlite Sweater.

ALL the rest of my insulative clothing would be either Climashield or Thermolite insulated garments, like my Thermolite Micro jacket and pants.

When hiking with a pack the back of a down jacket WILL get soaked with sweat and may not dry out until you get it home. Don't ask me how I know. (It was a - 5 F. weekend too!)