Right on Javan!

you can buy UL ... couldnt do that before

now you can have yr UL coffee press, UL tent, UL full framed pack, UL warm down jacket, UL gas stove, UL kitchen set, UL sleeping bag, UL ultra comfy mattress .... and never give up a creature comfort ... as long as you have the money

this is probably a good thing as it introduces more UL goods that more people can use ...

but that simply means a person can be UL without having ever even done a day hike by going CHA CHING !!! with their platinum amex ...

lighter gear is easy if you have the money .... not bringing gear or using it differently is hard ...

i think i own like 3 "UL" pieces in total ... ponchotarp, OR Helium, MB exl ... hmmmmm

Edited by bearbreeder on 01/23/2011 10:18:16 MST.

Wait wait wait Eric. Lets not get carried away here! UL Coffee Press is the single most important technological advancement in the backpacking realm PERIOD!


Seriously

I sometimes feel ambivalent toward the unending stream of "UL" gear coming on market. Take the UL coffee press for example.

OT one H, maybe it is a good thing that what some of us had to do without, when coffee press came only in full size -- we can now carry a UL equivalent and enjoy our coffee!

OT other H, UL or not, that coffee press we purchased is also one more thing to clutter up our pack -- one more thing that wasn't there before.

But at the end, to me, it isn't so much the weight and quantity of gear that we haul with us -- or how they compare with anybody else. More so, it's a balance between how much enjoyment or safety we get out of our gear pieces -- and whether our total pack weight is still within comfort range for us. If it balances out for us, then why not?

Edited by ben2world on 01/23/2011 10:34:08 MST.

+1. Well said Javan, thanks.

"Running is a sport, even backpacking is a sport. Lets reclaim ultra-light as a life-style."

Yeah but... face it, some of the folks here are quite into the quest or competition or whatever of UL --> SUL-->XUL --> ?UL. But so what? If it tickles them pink with enjoyment to work toward and become the lightest, I say let them compete. Ditto for those who want to hike the fastest and farthest! Or those who want to capture the best photos.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to this: HYOH and enjoy it in whatever form you fancy.

Gear that works well is barely noticed once you're out there. It's really only the gear failures that are memorable. BPL seems to be all about gear because there are many beginners looking for advice and plenty of more experienced people giving it. I wish I had known about this resource when I made my ultralight conversion.

Ike,

I was fortunate to stumble upon BPL early on, my 'experience' as an outdoorsman is really in its infancy when in the light of many of the members here and I've found this website and the members to be an invaluable resource in my own path if you will towards efficiency and lightness in the outdoors. In the beginning I soaked everything up like a sponge, taking notes of what worked for people and what didn't, browsing through trip reports, scanning gear lists and member locales, tweaking my own choices, with the purpose of finding what worked for me. In the end what has ultimately worked for me is simply getting out there when I can and learning through my own process of trial and error, this evolutionary process is ongoing as I learn new things all the time.


Javan,

I really have little desire to delineate or define what constitutes a lightweight backpacker from a traditionalist from a heavyweight... who am I to determine? I only proposed that question as rhetorical food for thought as what I increasingly see being the focus here at BPL is gear and I think that the website could do well to shift or perhaps re-direct the focus in the direction of minimalism like you mentioned. Doing more with less.

I'm with you guys, definitely HYOH, I'm not trying to tell anybody what to do, at all.


I'd just love to see the ideologies embraced in broader terms, and let the specific goals or competitive aspects fall into a sub group of that larger whole. I do think it's important for us to ground ourselves in what the *idea* of this thing is, more than just the implementation of that idea.


My only real concern is that we're loosing the forest by focusing on the trees.



Although it's perfectly fine if your goals are extremely targeted, as long as you've made that *choice*, not just fallen into it without realizing.


Anyway, this thread, and the original posts which sparked it, have made me think more about something that's already been nagging at me. So thank you Eugene, Hendrik, and Dave, and everyone else that's participated so far.

Edited by jdempsey on 01/23/2011 11:24:48 MST.

When you first decide to try this backpacking thing the obvious thing to do is to go into a gear store get what you need. When you are just starting out you have no way of judging or questioning the experience of the salesman at the store whose "been there done that". You have, too a certain degree some confidence that the heavy gear all over the place was designed by necessity and came from a lot of feedback from experienced people.
it takes experience to know that things can be done differently and the confidence to try it. I know I got into UL because of my personality. I don't like clutter and I don't like being a pack mule. After my first real backpacking trip I was already thinking about how to lighten my burden.
Luckily I found the answer in the 2 most unlikely of places. One, I saw an article in Backpacking mag on light weight backpacking when Golite and ULA were new upstarts. Second, I bought Ray Jardines book in REI ! These ideas really opened my eyes and I knew there were others who got my style. Then the internet had all kinds of MYOG sites because UL gear was a special order item with very few options. It was out of necessity and Jardines influence that I learned to sew and learned all about fabrics and such. Then BPL came along and it became a place were all this stuff could be reviewed and discussed sometimes ad nausem.
Now we have great books explaining the how-tos and lots of great companies with off the self options. It is no longer strange to have a light load and that is the success of sites like this.

When I was a kid, I got interested in trout fishing. Specifically I "discovered" the southern Sierra's rivers and streams. I had a friend who got me interested. We would bum rides or hitch hike to these places. Then to get the less used areas, we bought a couple cheap packs and started backpacking. We soon drifted away as friends, and I continued going alone. Soon, the hiking became the purpose of the trips, not the fishing. At times I even found myself leaving my fishing gear at home.

In those days, there were not many places to buy gear, or even know what was available. If you lived close to an outfitter, sporting goods store, or Army Navy surplus store that is where you made your gear choices. Then Colin Fletcher wrote the Complete Walker, Backpacker Magazine was launched, and mail order took off with many people waiting anxiously for the REI, A16, and Campmor catalogs. Most people assembled their kit, and generally did not tinker with it too much. Then occasionally a new great book would be published and we would re-evaluate our gear. It was a slow evolution.

So for me, it was never a sport, it was just something I enjoyed doing. It was truly more about the hike.

The Internet has changed all of this. Ray Jardine's first book did not sell a lot of copies, as far as books go... but his ideas were discussed by a lot of people on the Web. Small companies sprouted and the Internet allowed them to sell their goods with small capital investment or advertising budget. Retailer and Manufacturer Websites were created, cyberspace forums and blogs popped up and more and more people were able to discuss gear and techniques. The Internet has changed everything. People with similar interests can now easily network, and in a few hours an individual can research dozens if not hundreds of options for a single piece of gear. We can now even observe the progress of people who take epic journeys in nearly real time. We can read the progress of some people thru-hiking the PCT, CDT, AT or unique adventures such as Andrew's Alaska-Yukon adventure last year. This has truly revolutionized backpacking.

A similar thing has happened to high school and college distance running. Distance running in the US had pretty declined from the heyday of the late 60's and 70's. In the past 10 years it has become popularized by the Internet and more people are running and the times have been improving at an accelerated rate. Again, the Internet has provided quick and easy access to information.

So the Internet has had a huge impact on our sport/hobby/experience/passion/awaking or whatever term/reason one backpacks.

It must be true, because you are reading this thread :)

You guys need to re-discover your G-spot and be happy with it.

"Technology and innovation has allowed us to lighten our loads through "gear" so much so that I think we've forgotten about the focus towards minimalism, because it's easier to lighten gear, than figure out a way to do without it, or a simpler way to do it.

It's supposed to be about personal evolution. Self-sufficiency, adaptability, learning to be more efficient with less than more."

These two lines really summed up the argument of the entire thread for me. And although it was I that introduced the terms "sport" and "competition" to this thread, I agree entirely. I had hoped that it was clear from the context that I was trying to describe a positive value; Being inspired by the actions of others to improve your own performance. Going with less, going farther, or just going, period. Testing personal limits. We emulate that which we adore, or something like that. This is true not just in sports, but in life. The personal evolution that results is not diminished by the fact that we got the motivation from someone else.

And by the way, running is not a sport, it is another tool for personal growth. Like UL backpacking, only faster. It's just you and the trail (or road)- what you put in is what you get out.

.

Edited by jimver on 10/19/2011 14:55:15 MDT.

"We no longer know how to do more with less, we know how to do the same things with lighter."

I thought this bore repeating as well.

Javan summed it up well.

So how do we change this? Of course it is ultimately a personal effort, but if the community at large wanted to redirect its focus, how is that done?

I remember reading many articles on how to effectively bear-bag, use alcohol stoves, or build an effective and light clothing system. These were techniques that couldn't be bought. You had to learn.

For a few years I was constantly tweaking my gear. Constantly thinking of how I could do without certain things, or how to make something multi-use, etc. That obsession has come to a crawl, and I'm wondering if it has to do with the fact that I've run out of ideas and am simply relying on the new products being developed to lighten my weight for me. Time to get that ol' hampster up on his wheel again....

Specifically speaking about BPL, maybe the community needs to reinvigorate the MYOG forum, or the philosophy and technique forum by refocusing posts to push *knowledge* about the lightweight style instead of the gear. Maybe we could get some more articles on new techniques?



Unfortunately, I can't claim to have any of the answers.

"So how do we change this? Of course it is ultimately a personal effort, but if the community at large wanted to redirect its focus, how is that done?"

1: Put the gear forum at the bottom of the main page, Trip Reports forum at the top.

2: Write more Trip Reports.

3: No posting privileges until you submit three trip reports. If subsequent TR submissions drop below 1 per 6 months, posting privileges are suspended.

you don't change it .... BPL has indicated a desire to go more "mainstream" ... witness its last few reviews

going mainstream isnt a bad thing ... but it does reflect a very big focus on gear ... the average joe tends not to be to focused on techniques or other such these days .... they want to be able to "buy" their experiences ... often that means gear

look at all the latest blogs or articles .... most of them are either trip reports or ... gear reviews ... especially gear reviews

gear junkie, gear this, gear that , gear everything ... its not limited to backpacking ...

gear is easy ... technique is hard ...

Interesting thoughts... I've always been uneasy about the lust for gear and boasting of pack weights. I don't think it matters much below certain weights. It's about the experience not the equipment. And lots of setups are unrealistic for harsh trips.

And.. I'm fully guilty of not posting trip reports...

A big push to posting trip reports would be good but I don't see how it'll change the gear-centric mindset. This whole UL thing is still pretty new to me so maybe that's why going on trips just causes me to evaluate gear even more.

Maybe we need to move away from terms that define weight to terms that define minimalism by developing a system like Compact, Ultra-Compact, and Super Ultra-Compact based around the number of components in a kit. I guess those used to go hand in hand but not so much anymore. Such a system should separate the men from the boys - the more you know the less you need.

Then we get into bushcraft....

I heartily and respectfully disagree with both David and Larry.

Larry: I don't think that the focus of BPL or lightweight backpacking in general is how manly or badass you are, or skilled a survivalist you can be over a weekend. Frankly, I think weight is very much at the core of what lightweight backpacking is about, it's the limiting function is how far you can go and how comfortably you arrive at camp. There are a lot of LW backpackers which have achieve great benefit by lightening their pack while not sacrificing function. They may be less manly than you, but I see no reason to diminish their achievement of a lighter pack and what that has allowed them to do.

That does indeed seem more appropriate to a bushcraft community. You do see plenty of folks who are into UL and bushcraft for similar reasons... but I don't see any need to force the bushcraft worldview onto the UL world as a whole. Perhaps the set of people in the overlap are ready for someone to start a movement for ULV (Ultra low-volume) backpacking?


David: In all honesty, I would have never passed such a litmus test. If you're looking for a UL community strictly oriented away from gear, go ahead and create it... But I think if you imposed rules like that here you'd see people leak off to some BPL replacement. I've seen similar things tried in other online communities, and that's almost always the way things go. Do we want a club of gear-deniers, or a generally open community for the promotion and propagation of lightweight backpacking?