"I don't think that the focus of BPL or lightweight backpacking in general is how manly or badass you are, or skilled a survivalist you can be over a weekend."

I guess I shouldn't have used the cliche of "separating the men from the boys" but what I was getting at was a way to bring the focus back onto skills and multipurpose equipment. Being able to survive with minimal gear doesn't make a person manly IMO - that just means they're knowledgeable of such things. And if the average person was more knowledgeable about what it takes to survive we'd probably have fewer accidents and fewer locator beacons being sold. Not a bad thing IMO and just because you know how to do something the hard way doesn't mean you don't carry in what you need to enjoy your hike. If you handed the most spartan SUL kit to one of those crazy start a fire with some earwax and the friction from picking my nose types they wouldn't have much work ahead of them or could push it further than you and I can even dream. I figure, just like with weight, there's a line that's drawn somewhere delineating bushcraft/survival from backpacking.

Implementing a backpacking kit with few components based off of the multipurpose ethos is hardly bushcraft.

"I don't see any need to force the bushcraft worldview onto the UL world as a whole."

I think there is something to be said for knowing bushcraft skills but I much prefer to practice LNT ethics on the trail. It just takes to long to create debris shelters and fire from nothing when you don't have to. It's fun to practice in your spare time but, to me, it takes away from my time enjoying the outdoors. However, knowledge is weightless and can save your bacon. And that is what I thought we were talking about - doing more with less.

I agree with Aaron. More rules are not the answer. Limiting who can post on gear deprives the newbies of an awesome resource. I do like the idea of moving trip reports and techniques to a position of greater prominence though.

For what it's worth though, I don't think BPL is as broken as you think. It is a vibrant community made up of gearheads, MYOGers, fast packers, slow packers, people who go UL for greater comfort when hiking, people who do it to challenge themselves, packrafters, skiers, hunters, minimalists, and people just lightening up a little. If you want to bring philosophy and technique to the forefront in this community, lead by example. Lots of people do. Look at Mike C! He may come across as dogmatic to some, but he's like the zen master of UL. When he evaluates a gear list he doesn't recommend alternate gear, it's just "NIX this, NIX that, you don't need that much pack, you don't need a change of clothes, you don't need TP, etc". People may choose to follow this advice or not, but it at least opens your mind to need vs want.

Eric is also a great example (though I've often wondered if his family was massacred by yuppies when he was a child). He is always quick to point out the silliness of selling a perfectly good piece of gear for a slightly lighter one. Roger Caffin too frequently comments on the pointlessness of going below a certain weight.

If you want your world view to assume a role of greater prominence in the BPL community, then put it out there. Jack, your CDT pictures inspired me for days. I looked through every single one of the 4 sets. Dave C, I have your site bookmarked to follow your adventures and I dream of visiting your part of the country. Eugene, your trip reports and photography say much more about your love of UL backpacking than they do about gear (but your pictorial description of packing your Burn was a nice contribution to demonstrating how little you need and is not bad just because it was about gear). Javan, your whole life is an example of turning your love for UL backpacking into a lifestyle. Just about everyone who had posted here has inspired me and countless others in some way. And in general, this is a supportive community that hikes frequently and talks trash rarely.

So lead by example and show what is possible with UL travel. But when a newbie asks for advice on a piece of gear, don't hold back your experiences.

Aaron, I was of course trying to be provocative. Travis asked a question, and an answer entered my head.

I'm certainly not a gear denier, often suffer from an excessive infatuation with gear for a given activity, and have to remind myself to dial it down (knowing that I struggled in a ski mountaineering race this weekend due to skill, not gear). I've also learned a lot from this site, much of which had to do with rexamining some of my assumptions about gear.

Questioning is good.

Oh, I don't think BPL is broken at all. I just think the questions and issues that have been brought up are part of a natural evolutionary process.

I think all of us here suffer from the gear obsession, probably on a level much beyond what many do, which is why we see the issue so acutely.


Ultimately, this discussion itself is the catalyst for change. The idea has taken deep root in my mind, as I'm sure it will with others. If we feel strongly enough about it, as members of this community, and people responsible for our own ideas, it's our burden to be the change we want to see.


Gear itself isn't the problem, at all, it's just the mindset that gear can supplant knowledge. The gear, they're just tools. Just like driving nails, it doesn't matter how great your hammer is. Large or small, if you don't know how to swing it...

Sometimes it just feels like we're running around with nail-guns, framing houses, not knowing how to swing the hammer. No tool can be effectively wielded without skill, even a nail gun, but technology lowers the barrier to entry. It gets you in the game fast, but can hold you back in the long run.


I'm guilty, I've got kit in the closet, that I haven't so much as tested in my yard, let alone out in the woods.


edit: just wanted to clarify that by "all of us here" I meant those of us espousing on this thread, not everyone on BPL.

Edited by jdempsey on 01/24/2011 09:17:28 MST.

+1 Ike
+1 Javan

David: I totally agree- questioning is good!

Larry: Knowledge and skill are indeed weightless and of immeasurable value. I don't think I was arguing for the primacy of gear over skill.

I don't think there's anything wrong with creating a kit with very few components- I think it's be a fun game to play in threads and on the trail, similar to games we play with insanely lightweight kits.

Edited by areichow on 01/24/2011 09:25:44 MST.

Just out of curiosity, how are you reconciling your current gear doubts with your role as a SUL gear manufacturer? Please don't feel obligated to answer if it's too personal.

The issue I have with a gear-centric approach to things is twofold:

1. The search for the Holy Grail of purchases, the neverending quest to find the last shelter, pack, pillow, pad, sleeping bag you'll ever need.

And yet the only "do everything" kit is the kit that you try to do everything with.

But this takes skill, patience, and time in the field learning the benefits and shortcomings of a particular setup. Finding shortcomings, however, should not be the catalyst to throw it up on Gear Swap the second the trip is over. Every item has shortcomings, we all know this. This is where the real work and skill should come in; learning the better pitch, better site selection, technique, whatever...the better skill set to compliment the gear. This seems to be some of the underlying frustration with the gear focus on this site; increasing amounts of gear choices with little talk of how it's actually being used.

I have stopped talking about gear in most of my trip reports (unless asked) because I'm using the same stuff every time...GoLite Jam, ShangriLa 3, Ridgerest 3/4, WM Summerlite...etc. What's to talk about anymore unless I find a situation in which I had something new/unexpected happen concerning gear selection, like my recent desert disaster with my SL3 getting blown down? My initial reaction was to get a new shelter that's better in wind, but I've since decided to commit to modifying it and just getting better with its use in all conditions.

But when you're not getting out much, it's far easier to start online shopping for your solution, reading reviews, and obsessing/geeking out on statistics. We've all been there.

2. Wastefulness. Spiraling into the same old consumer nonsense. When was the last time anyone literally wore out a piece of gear? As evidenced by the plethora of high-quality, excellent condition items being offered up on Gear Swap on a daily basis, it seems not too often. That's part of my New Year's goals; wear out everything I've got. At least I'm making progress...burnt a quarter-sized hole in my Montbell Alpine Light this weekend!

Seeing duct tape on my jackets makes me happy these days.

This ties back into going the consumer route and looking for a spending solution as opposed to a modification or simply more time with an item. For better or worse, I just don't have the money to spend anymore- there are other priorities. I find that this negates a large chunk of BPL from my interest. What do I care about the Outdoor Retailer show or gear review after gear review when I've got no money to spend and nothing I need? Unless, of course, I want to reinvent the wheel yet again, this time seeing if I can make it 2 ounces lighter. How many times have I done this now? Personally, I'm over it.

Just some thoughts, no judgment on anybody here.

Edited by xnomanx on 01/24/2011 10:14:12 MST.

Ike,

Fair question. I don't feel too guilty as a maker, since I flatter myself by thinking that I steer customers in the direction of comfort and efficiency first, and weight second. I'm very remiss to make compromises with quilts for instance, that would lighten them at the expense of adequate coverage and comfort. I first started making quilts for my comfort, and continue for others'. To me, the big advantage of quilts *is* their comfort, when properly designed, the weight savings is just a really big bonus. Still, thats why I don't make straight taper quilts anymore, and rarely half-tapers, and why I really try to talk everyone into sewn footboxes, instead of draw-cords for anything 35deg or under, even though it's more work for me.

Ultimately that's the paradox of this quandary. The gear is an essential piece of the puzzle. However, as a gear maker, I feel a responsibility to make sure it's genuine and useful instead of egregious, and to consider whether the gear I make can add depth, or remove it from the experience. To my mind, quilts require more skill to use effectively, but reward a multitude of advantages quid pro quo. So I'd consider that progressive use of gear.

Secondly, after this next big batch of orders I've got on the board, I'm going to stop taking them for a while. Maybe all summer. I was hoping to do an AT thru this year, but I might not be able to swing the time(read: gf might be upset), but I'll at least be out as much as possible everywhere else, probably do the JMT, and probably take at least one trip back to South America. I need some time to really learn more about the gear I'm making by being out there with it more, to bolster the direction, re-evaluate the needs.


If I don't do the AT, I'll still be making gear in-between trips, but likely mostly for myself, and testers. I'm really more interested in creating new tools for the outdoor experience, over rehashing the same old UL gear status quo. Some things I've got in mind, I hope will add versatility, hopefully encouraging more interesting trips and backwoods experiences. I'm also really interested in the crossover potential of UL philosophies and gear making strategies toward other skill sets. Bushcrafting is a great example.

I'd like to be spending my time working on new things, new gear, new adventures, new whatever, instead of producing quantity of anything. My brain works much faster than my hands.

Otherwise, I don't really know, it's definitely an evolutionary time for me personally. Sorry, complicated long answer to a short question, thanks for making me think about it more deeply.

+1 Craig. Absolutely loved it.

"Look at Mike C! He may come across as dogmatic to some, but he's like the zen master of UL....

Eric is also a great example.... Roger Caffin too frequently comments on the pointlessness of going below a certain weight."

This has been on my mind for a while now. Should I become "that" guy? I tend to push poncho tarping pretty hard already and the Trailstar just seems like a no-brainer the rest of time but right now, despite being an outdoors guy my whole life, I'm relatively short on experience as an ultralight backpacker. So, for now, I'll leave the dogmatic approach to others. In a few more years though, well, I'll probably be "that" guy.

"When was the last time anyone literally wore out a piece of gear?"

Not falling prey to consumerism is a great point. I've been guilty of this myself at times (I'm sure most people have) but I try hard to stay away from it. I recently justified the purchase of an MLD Newt because of its compression system... the reality is more because I've just plain wanted one despite already having an Ion and a MH Scrambler.

Edited by veriest1 on 01/24/2011 10:29:27 MST.

Lots of great responses to this thread. Not much more I can add (though, of course, that's obviously not going to stop me.....).

There are a lot of folks who have been with BPL for a long time. They've grown, though, and perhaps think that BPL hasn't quite grown with them. They'd like BPL to be what they need at this stage in their development, and that's quite understandable. There are others who are coming to BPL for the first time, and they are, perhaps, where the long-timers were in the distant past. Ike said it best when he said: "For what it's worth though, I don't think BPL is as broken as you think. It is a vibrant community made up of gearheads, MYOGers, fast packers, slow packers, people who go UL for greater comfort when hiking, people who do it to challenge themselves, packrafters, skiers, hunters, minimalists, and people just lightening up a little."

As I see it, BPL is in it for the thru. Newbies in Georgia, old hands in Maine and everyone on the trail in between. The scenery is ever changing, the conversations ever evolving, the focus ever developing. And we, the BPL community, are changing and evolving and developing right along with it, only at different paces and, at times, down different trails.

In the end, it's only important that we all had a good hike, whatever direction we chose to go. And hopefully, we'll all have tales to tell and share, because we can all learn something, even if just a bit, from each other.

I still think that what today's BPL needs most of is patience, civility, understanding, and acceptance of diversity in thought and action.

And more cuben.

> I still think that what today's BPL needs most of is patience, civility,
> understanding, and acceptance of diversity in thought and action.
>
> And more cuben.

Now that's a platform I can get behind!

He who dies with the least toys wins.

It can be about whatever you want it to be about.

This forum is for those who want it to be, in part, about gear.

That includes me, who is carrying 50% less weight.

But I did run across a couple and their dog in the Never Summers who invited me to a dinner of fresh trout cooked on their gigantic steel fry pan. The dog even had his own tent, and deserved it for all the stuff he carried. Would never carry all that stuff. The trout tasted awful good, though. As Aaron said on another thread, "To each their own."