never use em myself ... mainly because climbing packs dont have em ... they get in the way of your harness and racking

what i wouldnt mind trying is the shoulder strap pockets like the aarn ... since i often clip my water bottle to the daisy there on moderate climbs

in general though ... i find that the more pockets you have the more cr@p you bring ... using a simple tube pack forces you to think about everything you bring and how to pack it

Edited by bearbreeder on 01/21/2011 11:33:28 MST.

The momentum of the mass in your pants pockets change as you walk.
Cargo pockets are worse.
There is less momentum change for the same mass carried in a hip belt pocket, saving you energy.

My REI UL Cruise 60 came W/ no side pockets.

I added REI's aftermarket side pockets (sadly no longer sold by REI). They came in sets of two, a right and left pocket and added 400 cu. in. each. Other companies still sell aftermarket side pockets.

The extra 800 cu. in. plus attatching webing straps was worth the extra 5 oz. Now I can place First Aid bag, toilet gear, stove gear and potty bag in the pockets for fast access and have more main pack room for long trips.

MORAL: If'n ya like the pack's fit then modify what you need to make it work for you. Put on a better waist belt, add a different lid, sew loops for re-routing your hydration hose, etc.

On a winter pack I even added aluminum stays and a new belt.

I attached four bottle pockets onto the hip belt of my 2008 Jam2. These can each hold a liter of water, food or small misc. stuff. Between these and the two side pockets I rarely have to take my pack off to get to anything I need.

"The momentum of the mass in your pants pockets change as you walk."

How much are you carrying in your pockets? Is your pack full or do you NEED all of the 'stuff' at a ready hand?

Oh, and please post the double blind studies of such effect on biomechanics.

It is classical physics.

You will expend more energy walking with a mass in a pants pocket then with the same mass in a hip belt pocket.

So you are saying that if I have a small camera in one pocket and then an energy bar in the other, I will somehow be off balance? You are implying that there will be a pendulum effect with 6 oz in your pocket. The effect of this minimal weight would not be sufficient to throw off. You can't stuff much into a belt pocket on UL packs, nor can you pack much into your pant pocket. If it does, you need to get to the gym. Quickly.

Or take the rocks out of your pockets.

I use hip belt pockets and I put stuff in my trouser pockets as well. Both can work. The ONLY statement that doesn't work for me are statements that pontificate one and only one method -- and stating or strongly implying that all other alternatives are simply inferior.

Yeah... I hate to say it David, but you're arguing with the laws of physics. Not an easy one to win. The fact is, yes you are technically off balance if you have a small weight in one pocket and a larger one in the other. Unless you think your body warps the laws of gravity, there's really no argument.

Can you distinguish the difference on a step by step basis? No.

Will it drain you of a statistically larger amount of calories over a 60 mile hike? Absolutely.

There's no way to Double blind survey gravity by the way. It's not a person.

Edited by ForbesB on 01/21/2011 15:26:06 MST.

I am arguing that having the weight in your pant pocket is no different than having the weight in a small belt pocket. The effect on your body is the same. I am not arguing the physics. What I am arguing is that one can't cherry pick physics. If you have heavier stuff in one belt pocket vs the other, the effect would be the same as if you had different weights in each pant pocket.

Regardless, I agree with Ben - whatever works for you.

Edited by FamilyGuy on 01/21/2011 15:33:33 MST.

"Will it drain you of a statistically larger amount of calories over a 60 mile hike? Absolutely."

But will it drain you in any measurable, meaningful way? Unlikely.

You can make the same argument about a watch on a wrist. But the reality is that the 6" waterbar you have to step over requires way more energy.

Gram-counting is a good thing. But milli-calorie counting? Not for me. Thanks.

Edited by greg23 on 01/21/2011 15:38:12 MST.

My ULA P2 has pockets good for: Sunglasses, sunscreen, Glorp, Skittles, Lip/Nose/Ears sunscreen, and Pocket Camera. Or if its cold trade out the food for gloves.

Beats the heck out of taking the pack off for that stuff. Water bottles are also reachable if you don't tank up when you stop for water that is and need a sip to whet the ol' whistle.

I see at least one person who commented upthread has actually hiked long distances. Put stuff in your pockets for weeks on end, HA! What a joke.

Why my shorts don't waste weight with pockets. Runners shorts or swimtrunks. Unfortunately can't get pants without pockets generally unless they are rain slickers. More wasted weight as stuff will innevitably bounce out of said pocket or make a hole for itself in said pockets because said junk is bouncing around so much as its on your legs and rubs a hole right through them. Unless said pocket has a zipper on it you are kidding yourself to believe that whatever is in them will STAY in them.

I find the hipbelt pockets on the jam are perfect for keeping aqua mira, some suncreen, and lip balm on hand. I keep a Buff in the other one. I guess you could put a small knife there too but I prefer to keep that on my person.

I don't like a camera in my cargo pockets. Actually I don't put much of anything there because I hate having it swing around while I walk.

UL is all about minimizing the energy you expend.

Trail runners vs boots are a great example.

I just ordered the Windrider from HMG - - check it out. There are a few reviews on here. (I'll post a review when I take it out)

Cheers,
Tyson

Thanks for all the input on hipbelt pockets. But, I think it is getting a bit off topic from my original intention. I am just looking for some input from the packs I have heard are good, and input on frameless packs in general, as this will be my first venture into using them.

That being said, I am currently looking at getting a used Jam pack. Either the newest version or an old Jam2 if I can to cut down on weight. A Jam or Jam2 for $90 shipped is alot better than paying double that for an MLD Exodus. If I don't like it, I can resell it and save up more money for an Exodus in a worst case scenario.

I am still looking for any input you can give. Thanks for all the help so far!

If anyone is interested in the gear list I am hoping to use with the Jam, it will be on my profile shortly.

Kinda like with shoes, you never really know about a particular pack's comfort and fit until you load it up and try it for yourself for an hour or so.

But as you wrote above, so long as you can find used ones in good condition at reasonably low prices -- you can usually resell and get your money back -- so the risk is totally manageable.

But then, trying out new UL pack(s) isn't expensive either -- your only risk is the return postage.

I don't have the Exodus but do have the Prophet, which I used a lot last year (I'm replacing it this year with either the Burn or a custom pack currently being made). Love the Prophet, very well made pack, and is very closely related to the Exodus so you can't go wrong there.

Well, I find for frameless packs and even Very light "framed" packs, it depends nearly entirely on HOW you pack your pack for how it feels on your back. IE how you use your pad, sleeping system, food etc to pack your pack. Weight distribution. Volume distribution. This will determine how the pack moves etc.

The first few times I went frameless, it felt awful, till I stopped a couple miles down the trail, threw everything out and started over till I got it right.

Enjoy.