Down and Event or like material
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patrick walsh
(apbt1976) - F
Down and Event or like material on 01/13/2011 15:49:58 MST Print View

So i am thinking and wonder what others thoughts are. I hike so fast i am at most in a cap1 and my Rab alpine pull on unzipped down to 0-10% easy. I stay this way all the way to tree line and most of the time not till i reach the summit cone do i stop and add a warmer layer. In New England it is usually so cold i just go right for the down coat as i stuff it in the top of my pack.

For instance the other day i made my own line up King Ravine on MT Adams, it did not get that windy or cold until i was about to crest the head wall of the ravine. Granted it was windy in the ravine i was working hard enough that the temp was not an issue for me in my cap and Rab pull on. When i got above the headwall it was crazy windy and cold as hell. Like 55-70mph wind and 20-40% below zero.

The first thing i did was dig in my bag for my Down. Being it was so windy and cold i did not bother taking my Alpine Pull Over off nor did i dig deeper for a Gore Shell. I decided just the down was gonna have to do it. Well with the wind blowing snow all over the place it was only minutes and all my clothing had turned into a solid frozen snow covered mass. My gloves even froze solid on the outside so i could barely bend my fingers, being they where dry inside my hands stayed warm. Yes it would make sense to change into warmer clothes below tree line outa the wind but that was not gonna work high up a very steep ravine.

So my thought is this, if my down coat will only ever get used in temps 0% and below for short stints on exposed summits, or around camp while inactive wouldn't something like Event be perfect for me.

Javan Dempsey
(jdempsey)

Locale: The-Stateless-Society
Re: Down and Event or like material on 01/13/2011 16:27:27 MST Print View

Could be, although you'd lose versatility.

Making a down eVent jacket completely waterproof would be very costly also.


Although if you've got some cash burning a major hole in your pocket, I do accept custom orders and have 2-layer eVent on hand. ;)

patrick walsh
(apbt1976) - F
Thanks for the offer. on 01/13/2011 16:50:07 MST Print View

I would love some more peoples thoughts on this as it will be a costly purchase. Well maybe not that costly FF and WM both offer Event as a option. Yup it will be a $500 coat but it should last forever so? And not having to wear a GT shell is a big plus as i hate all those layers plus the idea of buying a $400 GT jacket that is so big it will only ever fit over or be worn with a big puffy down jacket just blows imop!

Edited by apbt1976 on 01/13/2011 16:51:35 MST.

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Down with eVent on 01/13/2011 17:29:05 MST Print View

Just a quick thought off the top of my head (pointed): The large sizes of DriDucks fit over almost anything, so could you leave your down parka stuffed inside a DriDucks, then grab them both out of your pack at the same time, and slip them on as a single unit?

patrick walsh
(apbt1976) - F
Dri-ducks on 01/13/2011 17:42:32 MST Print View

I Have been thinking about Dry-Ducks myself. I like the weight and throw away due to low cost option. I wonder how well this stuff will stand up to the kind of weather i will throw at it though?

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Dri-ducks on 01/13/2011 17:58:07 MST Print View

"I Have been thinking about Dry-Ducks myself"

If I were you, I wouldn't trust my a$$ and a high end down parka to a flimsy POS like DriDucks in that environment. Since you're only going to be using the down parka in those extreme conditions, flexibility is not an issue. I'd say go with the Event option, or maybe a really good windshirt over the parka if you want to preserve some flexibility.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Dri-ducks on 01/13/2011 18:03:31 MST Print View

I've owned Driducks for years now. It's for 3 season use.

patrick walsh
(apbt1976) - F
Re: Re: Dri-ducks on 01/13/2011 18:16:09 MST Print View

I have a Rab Alpine pullover that i use in winter over a layer of cap or at the start of the day over a R1 or R2. Problem is for it to be comfy to hike in it is best if it fits well. To get it over a puffy down it would have to be huge!!! I think i will end up just trying the Event option on a FF Front point as i can not see ever needing down while doing any high output activities?

Any other suggestions for Down manufacturers and Event? Also any idea what Event weighs vrs. say epic or another typical down shell material.

Javan Dempsey
(jdempsey)

Locale: The-Stateless-Society
Re: Thanks for the offer. on 01/13/2011 19:01:14 MST Print View

Patrick,

I'm not aware of any eVent WM jackets, although I guess maybe it's not well known, but just so you're aware, those FF eVent jackets, even the "tuck stitch baffled" ones, while likely highly water resistant, won't be waterproof the way a shell will be. Although they likely will be extremely hot.


You'll need one that's taped or sealed on the outside, if your goal is to completely replace the hardshell.


Just FYI.

Javan Dempsey
(jdempsey)

Locale: The-Stateless-Society
Re: Re: Re: Dri-ducks on 01/13/2011 19:02:03 MST Print View

2-layer eVent I have weighs approx 1.6oz per sq yard. So it's very competitive with Epic, and a much better performer.

Spruce Goose
(SpruceGoose) - F

Locale: New England
Re: Down and Event or like material on 01/13/2011 19:09:26 MST Print View

In my experience, hiking in down leads to wet down...especially on your back. I don't see any way to make this breathable, and keep the down dry.

Half of winter hiking is learning to manage moisture. I've been in King Ravine many times. You can stop and layer appropriately from most any spot in the ravine.

patrick walsh
(apbt1976) - F
Not really thinking breathable, on 01/13/2011 20:51:59 MST Print View

As much as i am thinking waterproof. It just seems to me in New england i only wear down because it is really really cold and i am moving very very slow. In this case i don't see needing a jacket to breath being very important. What i do find important is keeping my gear dry, imop if you only hike/climb in good weather in New England you are not gonna get much climbing done.

I tend/like to move very fast while climbing/hiking. I like to cover as much ground as possible in a day as i do only day trips for the most part. Stopping to screw with my gear just does not happen for me. I just assume run a little cool at all times and wear very little then to worry about stopping and starting to adjust gear. I only wear down above tree line on very windy cold days, 1-3 miles at a time. It just happens more times than not it is cold and windy when i am out climbing.

As for the ravine sure i could have found a spot to change if i really wanted to. I do all my climbing alone and would rather not fumble around digging through my pack sans ropes and risk dropping something, or worse slipping when i could have just waited 5 minutes till i got on flat level ground.

So it sounds like a Event down coat is not waterproof? Will it be waterproof enough to keep the down dry in wet snow and anything other than rain? The lower end of my sleeves wet out the other day and i am having a hard time getting the coat to loft back up in those areas. What i am trying to accomplish is no wet down in snow, and no shell over the down jacket to do it. Can it be done with Event?

Spruce Goose
(SpruceGoose) - F

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Down and Event or like material on 01/13/2011 21:18:32 MST Print View

When I said "wet down", I was referring to the issue of sweat. Event will keep you dry from the snow. I just can't imagine wearing a down jacket while moving very far...especially as fast as you're going. I would generate too much heat.

patrick walsh
(apbt1976) - F
i agree, on 01/13/2011 21:47:22 MST Print View

Like i said the down coat only gets worn for short stints. Like a few days ago, from the top of the ravine to the summit .6 miles or so. Then back down Airline to tree line whats that another mile maybe a bit more? Being the wind was blowing 60-70mph and it was 20%-30%, combine that with the usual ice and rock you find above tree line in the Whites and it made for some real slow going if you did not want to get blow over or take a wrong step and roll an ankle. My point is if i have down on i am going very very slow in most cases? I suppose it would suck if it was dry and cold and i wanted to move fast. I guess if i wanna move fast i dont need a down coat though!

patrick walsh
(apbt1976) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Dri-ducks on 01/13/2011 21:52:11 MST Print View

Thank you for that. What can you tell me about Epic? I have a Pertex equilibrium wind coat and it soaks through in 1-2 minutes max in rain. It does fine with snow falling on it or freezing up on it though. I was under the impression that the pertext equilibrium was highly water resistant before i bought the coat. I just don't want to find i have the sam problem with say Epic on a down coat.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
dead ducks on 01/13/2011 22:06:37 MST Print View

hey patrick,

here's my opinion ...

i have one wpb synth insulated jacked (dead bird fission AR - gore pro), and two highly water resistant insulated jackets (OR chaos synth with windstopper, mammut down with some nano fabric)

my experience using them has been that the jackets still get damp from either yr sweat, or snow working itself around the wpb/wr shell... namely when you put on and take off gloves, put on the jacket, sweat moving from yr layers ... usually this happens at the sleeves and hem ... the inside of most wpb insulated jackets is not dwr (rab might make some), so moisture still gets absorbed i find

it has also been my experience that it takes longer to dry jacket with thicker or less breathable shells ... the lighter and more breathable the shell, the faster my body heat seems to push out moisture

if i get my mammut wet, its not drying,,, period

if you do specifically want a wpb shell, event would probably be the way to go as its the most "breathable" of the wpb fabrics ...

however if it was me unless i needed it this winter id probably hold off ... since with MH going event, and the new wpb fabric coming out ... something "better" might be available at a decent price later in the year

i believe in some of the articles on this site mr jordan states the epic is the worst of both worlds .... neither breathable at certain temps ... nor wp enough

here's an older article on the use of wpb goretex in down jackets ... its from 2003 so wpb tech has advanced significantly since then ... keep that in mind

hope that helps ...

http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/physed/research/people/giesbrecht/Cold_Weather_Clothing.pdf



Edited by bearbreeder on 01/13/2011 22:07:18 MST.

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Down with sealed seams on 01/13/2011 22:23:05 MST Print View

Apparently, this snowboarder down parka attempts to seal the seams, but I can’t vouch for how successful they are:
Burton AK 2L LZ Down Jacket - Men's from Backcountry.com:
• Gore-Tex Performance Shell 2L blocks water and lets your body breathe
• Fully taped seams with Gore-Seam tape help prevent water from sneaking in
• Riri Aquazip water-resistant zippers help stop water from sneaking in through your zips
• 600-Fill down gives you hardcore insulation against the most brutal cold
[I know, not super fill down.]

tyler marlow
(like.sisyphus)

Locale: UTAH
VBL on 01/13/2011 22:30:27 MST Print View

It sounds like you may benifit more from a vapor barrier fabric like cuben or silnylon than event as the shell for a down jacket. That would protect your jacket from moisture from both sweat and the elements.

Javan Dempsey
(jdempsey)

Locale: The-Stateless-Society
Re: Down with sealed seams on 01/13/2011 22:35:22 MST Print View

That jacket has got to be heavy as hell ;)




In response to the Epic question, it's supposed to be "more water resistant" than a DWR fabric, but not waterproof. In my experience, momentum/intrepid accomplishes this as well or better than epic due to the insanely tight weave. Water beads right off of it, but it's definitely just DWR fabric.


Like Eric mentioned though, the less waterproof/resistant the fabric, generally, the better it breathes, and thus, the faster it dries. My first gen EB Downlight sweater appears to actually suck water into the fabric, let alone "resist" it. I'm pretty sure there's no DWR coating at all, it soaks out fast in rain, but likewise, it dries faster than any other down item I've ever had/used/made, etc.

My 2c, Epic is not worth the weight or cash investment, but that's just my opinion, and I'm sure others will disagree with me.



Like I said, if you're hell bent on a "waterproof" eVent jacket, I can make you one for about what you'd pay for a FF one, and I can seamgrip or tape the outside seams. The issue is, and I suspect the reason why you wont find any jackets like this, it might end up pretty ugly in the end. Very functional, but not pretty.

The fabric is waterproof, but the seams will wick moisture. Un-taped, like the FF jackets, the shell will be very water resistant, but not waterproof in the "rain" sense at all.

Javan Dempsey
(jdempsey)

Locale: The-Stateless-Society
Re: VBL on 01/13/2011 22:36:49 MST Print View

Yeah in extreme cold, a VBL down jacket, like a cuben one would be extremely light weight, and effective for non-active use.

It could also be made "effectively" waterproof.