Chris

I'm not endorsing, err....uh reviewing the pack. I am being critical of it. I can make value based opinionated critiques of any number of peices of gear based on experience and other known factors. Doesnt mean my critique is any more or less valuable than anothers endorsment. And yes the proof is in the pudding, and duration is always one of the most critical factors in testing anything :-) I stand by what I've said, especially when it comes to the claims about the silnylon's strength.

Kute

Nice to see you again too. Your implications only prove my point.

You make it sound like the thing is made out of tissue paper and not up to UL durability standards.


No, he questions whether or not it will live up to the expectations set forth by the implications of the aforementioned "hype", and he's not the only one.

It undoubtedly lives up to the durability of any other Silnylon based UL pack, but then again, we don't try to cram large dead animals into those packs or tout them as being capable of carrying 100+lbs with ease.

Josh, I am not sure what ...implications... I have made here, as you can see, your questionable comments here have drawn comments from several people and all of us seem to find your remarks both specious and biased.

If, you would prefer me to be more direct in my comments concerning your behaviour on the backpacking section of 24Hr.Campfire and even on Patrick Smith's own forum, Kifaru.net, I certainly can and will be and I vividly recall what took place there.

Given the season, I am inclined to leave it with, as I posted, ...nuff said..., but, will add one seemingly minor point; I used to own and manage my own specialty business and would simply say that your type of commentary here does your business little good or you any credit.

Most of us who buy and use highend gear tend to respect each other and exchange thoughts on what really works and what is mere hype...AFTER, we use the items in question. So, I, for one, am far less likely to buy a TiGoat stove, for example, when I encounter the behaviour you exhibit here...just a thought to consider.

I'm done with this, it is Christmas and not the time to brawl on the internet like a bunch of tavern louts. Merry Christmas to all.

I'm glad people are addressing UL load haulers, as I've thought about this for awhile myself and have contemplated doing it as a project. There is need, and I would much rather have one pack I could grab for 80 - 90 % of what I do instead of continually switching gear around form pack to pack.

Outside of hunting, there is need for UL load in rescue work as well. I do some volunteer rescue stuff and carrying medical FR, ropes , climbing stuff adds up. There is also a need for it in the case of being a sort of sherpa (which I play more than I would want). I ended up on the way out of hunting not only carrying my stuff, but carrying some one else's pack as well, sometimes attached to my pack and sometimes on the front. It was a good load, probably almost as much as the bear I packed out a couple weeks later.

Myself, I've been on the fence about Silnylon in packs. I like the weight and the water resistance, but I'm not sure if I'd want to go through the oak brush or thick timber with a 30d nylon based pack. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

I'm interested to see how these lightweight load haulers pan out.
Kevin

Edited by ktimm on 12/22/2010 11:12:26 MST.

Kute

I dont need to have a good memory, I have most of it archived. To make it easier for folks to see what you are referring to, you should have mentioned that my handle on Kifaru was Coruja, you will need to search the archives for the user name "me", to find anything though. On The Camp Fire, it would also be Coruja. I stand by what I've done and said in both those places, and in the tangible non-digital realm also.

You sounded out my point perfectly in that post, Thanks.

Pointing out that I'm a lunatic, is like pointing out the low tear strength of silnylon. Only certain people will argue with that, it becomes technical, but well understood at that point.

I'm not sure if it is enough said, how bout you?

Did you catch that? I know it's not fair to edit but I think I'm nosing into something I don't belong in, like a bear getting into a garbage can! I look forward to seeing how all this shakes out in the real world.

Sorry Kevin, I don't mean to throw you off like that. I added a post below. Yeah, old externals are fun. I picked up an old Kelty BB5 in my size while down in Bishop. It's even got the original Kelty rain cover. I plan to fix it up in spare time I don't have.

Edited by wildlife on 12/23/2010 00:04:53 MST.

Hi Dan

Need / Want is different. We don't need much, I've carried stuff like Santa before down the trail or huge mushroom like a baby before. I bounce all over the place weight wise, I love my Nathan pack for minimal / fast stuff perhaps up to 15 - 20 miles in the right conditions. The pack weighs 6 ounces. However, for hunting, I take a load hauler. For winter stuff, I need more volume though not the load.

I spend a lot of time switching gear between packs, which I don't like doing, but the reality is I don't want to take a heavy 60 liter when I am not carrying much. For now, my best and favorite pack is an old jansport with a small external frame. It fits well, gets pretty small, and can carry a good load. It's lighter than my other big packs. I don't even know the model of it, but it was a thrift store item and works better for the majority of uses. I guess I look a bit looney with my pack choice, amongst a sea of Osprey , Black Diamond and so on.

Cheers

Kevin

Dan, Absurdity? yes. I just shaved 3g out of a piece of gear though, so maybe not what your thinking.

still waiting for someone to post up pics of a bear in their pack ... its all fun and games until someone stuffs a bear

That's why I have a 70 liter, 4lb 8oz McHale Chasm for loads up to 50lbs (7-10 day trips) and a 40 liter, 2lb 8oz McHale Merkebeiner, for loads up to 30lbs (2-5 day trips)

Edited by mfog1 on 12/23/2010 00:18:43 MST.

I'm not going to make any comments about the review that begins the thread but I know what you mean Josh about over the top claims. That what's so different these days, as opposed to the old days, when the magazines could say whatever they wanted and there was no rebutal possible or certainly not enough. Although magazines still do reviews, they are far less significant. How times have changed! 3 grams? Congratulations! :>) Hey there Mike!

Kevin,

Maybe it's neither want or need I was trying to get at. Maybe I was trying to get at the peer pressure at the root of some of it.

Edited by wildlife on 12/23/2010 00:06:41 MST.

Good post, CCH. I have also known Mr. Smith and the Kifaru company for a long time, and have found them to be a company of integrity. I've also done an enormous amount of backcountry rambling with him, and a lot of it has been when he's used the UL pack prototypes. We've done just about everything with that pack, and it's holding up nicely. I would caution, as CCH has, about jumping off the deep end until you've seen and used the pack, or read what others have for opinions after they've done the same. I've seen and used the packs. A lot. I have a KU3700 prototype that I will continue to drag through the oak brush and thick timber, haul boned out mule deer, and use as my go-to pack from now on. My Longhunter and Late Season packs are pretty much "retired". And I'll be very happy to post results here. I do NOT plan to carry 100# in my pack, but it sure is nice to know it can be done. I don't even plan to carry half that weight unless it's meat, but I WILL make an exception in that case ;) . So, you can add a fourth to the list of people who have used the packs extensively and "endorse" them, whatever that means.

Paul,

Are those deer horns from recent kills stacked in your tent?

Sorry, couldn't resist. I assume it is kindling but it just seemed funnier to pretend they were antlers stacked up by an overzealous hunter.

Ha, ha! No, but that certainly WOULD be an excellent photo, wouldn't it! My antler collection is here at home on my walls, and I also have a pile of "lesser" ones (mostly sheds) out in front of the house. The wood you see in the photo is for the wood stove in the shelter. We managed to pile well over four day's worth of wood in there and still had room for two hunters and gear.

All of this excitement reminds me of the Voyager flight back in 1986. Who would ever think a carbon fiber plane weighing 2,200 lbs and carrying 2 people and 7,000 pounds of fuel could fly nonstop ( no touchdowns and no mid-air refueling ) around the world? Flight speed was low; 121 mph, so in that there would be a similarity also to carrying a 150 lb load in the carbon fiber pack! :>) The Voyager book is a great read by the way.

It snowed bad! http://www.whitneyzone.com/webcam/will/willi.jpg

Edited by wildlife on 12/23/2010 16:28:35 MST.

3 things: Ok, 4:

1) I want a pack with a detachable frame like Kifaru Packs from the bag. This allows me to buy one frame and attack either a weekend climb rucksack or an expedition rucksack. Combine this feature with McHale's Byonet stay system and we are really getting somewhere.

2) I want a climbing harness built into said frame on said pack. Saves weight. No one does this. Its really stupid In My Opinion that this isn't the case especially as one gets a Gigantic WAD of buckles, zippers, suspenders and what not at your waist.

3) I want McHales suspension system. Period. Dual buckle Hipbelt and shoulder suspension strap system where it uses TENSION instead of compression on your shoulders! It can't be beat by ANY other pack. If you haven't had one on your back you don't know what you are talking about.

4) Fabricc: Dyneema would be nice except it doesn't stay waterproof. The waterproof coating falls off the dyneema. Lightweight nylon rips too easily unless you go to an insane weight fabric. Most folks go on a trail or in wide open country where there are no sticks to puncture your pack. For most folks Silnylon is just fine with a heavier weight fabric on the bottom. BUT, if you do ANY off trail work through brush, open forest, climbing, mountaineering(ice), abrasion, or even dessert where there are TONS of thorns, then any form of nylon below 210 IMO is GARBAGE as it will rip and tear in a heart beat. I own many packs. I see many like the ULA catalyst. I fell in love with it on there site as well. Said pack now has a ton of miles on it and a TON of holes in it. Ok, the DYneema kept the pack from blowing apart in said rips, but the lightweight nylon fabric rips very easily. Thus, its NOT waterproof. I still have a 40 year old REI frame pack that is still waterproof without rips using 210 fabric. Well I redid the waterproofing because after 35 years the urethane died.

NOTE: Kifuru gets away with lightweight fabric in that they make their BAGS detach from the frame! So, you can buy a super light weight bag, or replace said "normal" bag that is made out of gossamer air and rips like it as well, or you can put a heavy duty bag on. I also go paragliding, and believe me, said paragliding fabrics rip very easily. Not quite as easily as the lightest of silnylons used on UL tarps, but very easily. The thread count is 70 on paragliders normally I think. It could be 110 on older paragliders. I forget for sure honestly.

That all being said, none of these packs have these features.

McHale packs use 7000 series aluminum sheet stock with 80kpsi yield strength. SOLID aluminum. Yea yea everyone does the same thing. AT least Dan uses the best aluminum out thereunlike everyone else, the dumb schmucks. It is NOT optimal! Rather it makes it easy to build. I am guessing here, that the new Kifuru pack uses a tubular Carbon fiber design for its stays with a wood core.

Thank GOD. Finally!

It will be lighter, more rigid, and stronger to boot allowing one to carry far heavier loads. Period End of story. Why? A little thing called Structural Engineering Mechanics. A circle is ALWAYS stronger/stiffer for multi directional stress. That being said, it is also far harder to buy said round object and to attach said round object with things like BOLTS to things like oh, hipbelts. That and fitting to your back! Said tubes would have to be preformed to a "standard" back, is no such thing, or attached to a "frame to hold said tubes behind it where the frame is the part molded and somehow attached rigidly to the tubes to attain its stiffness to hold its form.

This is especially true of Carbon Fiber as it either holds the stress perfectly OK, or shatters whereas Aluminum yields and deforms. Now I read somewhere that McHale toyed with CF a while back but didn't like the durability. I would point out that he probably never implemented it correctly as I have had many years of experience designing/building with CF. It can be tricky.

There is a reason all high end arrows are made with CF and not aluminum. Its stiffer. This is what you want as the main stays in your pack. Guaranteed. They do need to be designed correctly though.

Sorry, for long post. The ultimate pack is still out there.

PS. Kifuru packs act as chairs without the bag... Quite handy.

Brian

Please pretty please, Kifuru use McHales suspension system. His patent ran out I am pretty sure. I have neck headache problems and only McHales suspension system helps in that regard. Oh, yea hip belt pockets are SWEEEEET! Every pack should have them. Yes, I own 2 McHale backpacks. Black Diamond Shadow 55, ULA catlyst, Gregory Denali Pro, Dana Designs Astraplane, Kelty Tioga, Mountainsmith,and several others.

If you own 2 McHale's then why do you need a Kifaru made with a McHale suspension,which would be a rip-off anyway, patent or no patent. Just be happy with the McHale's and use them. Disagree somewhat about fabrics,I think it depends on how one treats their gear, how much they use it, and how and where they use it as well. Waiting for my 2nd McHale made from 140D Grid-Stock fabric.

I like the idea of meshing a pack frame with a climbing harness, but it would be horrible in practice. Do you want straps/buckles that are easy to use or do you want them to be secure?

It has not been my experience that the internal coatings are 'falling off' our dyneema. Most coatings do fail long term though on most fabrics.

Edited by wildlife on 01/17/2011 21:08:27 MST.

Paul,

What tent are you using in your pic? Looks interesting,

Regards
Mark