What softshell jackets do people like to use in the cold weather? I have a fleece made by Avalache which is great, comfy, and durable. Kinda heavy though. Cold weather.

Any ideas?

While Hiking? I use OR Tremor pants. Tough and warm, but has huge thigh vents for higher exertion.

I also use the OR contour windshirt- its a thin softshell pullover, though. Not a 'hard' windshirt. this over SW lightweights gets it for me. if its really cold I'll add a thin MB vest under the Contour

I'm starting to be an OR pimp. (which is a tough sell here cause it ain't light)- I guess pimpin' AIN'T easy

I stick to the thinner softshell jackets without any microfleece lining or windblock membrane. They are still air permeable to a certain degree and have a quicker dry time. I can adjust my underlayers to suit the temp but the shell stays the same.

Patagonia Ready Mix Jacket and Pants

Polyester with welded seams, 14oz, very water resistant, quick drying, breathable. Wish someone with the skills could buy this fabric and make all kinds of pants and jackets. This was replaced by the Ascensionist which is heavier, bulkier, with a bigger fit.

Patagonia Traverse Jacket and pants

Polyester and Spandex fabric, 11oz, very stretchy and breathable, great for aerobic usage. Wish I had bought the pullover when they were available. Pants are good too but rode up on my calves and stayed there like high-waters.

Also check out the Rab Alpine Pull-On. Looks like a great piece.

currently I am using the rab alpine pullover combined with a patagonia r1 hoody. I haven't used this combination a lot yet (winter is just starting), but I used something similar in the past and was very happy. Somewhat similar is what I used the last few years, a Rab Vapor Rise Jacket.

I don't like any of the membrane based softshells... don't breath well enough. I have found most of the stretch woven softshells don't have enough wind protection for my torso (seem good in pants). So I generally recommend a shell (or shell integrated with light pile) that has a bit of air permeability.

--Mark

The Patagonia Talus jacket is a great choice for colder conditions, methinks. They have a light fleece interior--maybe 1/4" nap--and a semi-permeable membrane. This makes it perceptibly windproof, but with a bit of airflow to prevent moisture buildup. Double napoleon pockets are super handy, and the sleeves are long enough for my frame. They are cut so that the cuff angles to cover the back of the hand, and the cuffs themselves are adjustable. I'm 6'-1", 160lbs, and a medium fits very well with a baselayer and light fleece underneath. The cut is so good it looks fitted.

woven .... double weave, schoeller dryskin, etc ...

it still has to be pretty cold to use a softshell going on a steep uphill gradient with a 20+ lb pack

i wont wear a membrane softshell unless its 0F or lower ... and even then you can easily overheat

I don't even know what temps I can use membrane softshells in. The only one I have is OR Mithril with Venetia membrane and it get stuffy quick. I just use it around town.

The Contour is just woven. Its a Cordura IIRC. Its OK in the wind and doesn't get too hot because of the 1/2 zip. I have had to take it off and just go with merino base and a light vest to snare the wind because it got too hot. But for the 40 and 30's I can use it often. And those temps are all winter in the hills here.

I'm trying to see the advantages of a softshell jacket vs a light windshell over a base layer or over a base/mid layer

is it weight? weight wise R1 + Houdini = 14-ish ounces and should be warmer than a lot of the lighter softshells, it's also two pieces that give you more versatility

the DWR on the Houdini is pretty good, can't see it being much better on a softshell (maybe it is???)

thanks

mike ... one reason ... abrasion

in the old days a softshell was just a pile and pertex jacket ... it was never meant to be the fancy yuppie jackets we see today ... you were meant to get damp in it eventually ... you just lived with it and it would dry out as yr body heat would push the moisture out ... kind of like paramo ...

then some yupppie came out with the bright idea to make them more water resistant ... and thus reducing the breathability, missing the entire point ...

the only true softshells today are the pertex/pile, driclime, and woven ones ... some would argue paramo as well

yr houdini and R1 is basically a pile and pertex in 2 layers ....

i personally think that softshells are, or are going to be obsolete in the not too distant future ... event or it successors will breath just as well as many softshells, and be waterproof to boot ...

Edited by bearbreeder on 12/05/2010 20:37:57 MST.

ahhh gotcha- thanks :)

and switched to a polar stretch hoodie that i pair with a wild things epic hooded windshirt. the hoodie is highly breathable, but alone has no wind protection. when the windshirt is added you get a very high wind/water resistance with much better breathability than a membrane softshell.

for my bottom-half i love my cloudveil rayzar scholler dryskin pants. they would be perfect if they had full side zips.

i'm very comfortable in the picture below at about -10*, with winds around 25 mph, wearing mammut dri release base layer, polar stretch hoodie, windshirt, running tights and rayzar pants. high aerobic activity and no moisture build-up. i did add additional insulation when we stopped to melt water.

Edited by RICKO on 12/06/2010 06:48:40 MST.

So I have the OR Frostline which is pile and Pertex but I get too hot hiking in it. Thats why I go LW base + Contour. I sacrifice a little protection for breath-ability. The rain so far hasn't been bad enough to really overload the Contour and I've stayed dry.

Is the frostline just a thicker nap than what you and Verber are talkin about, or is it my sweaty bastarditis?

jeff .... if you ever go hiking in the rockies at 0-10F days im sure the frostline would be an awesome softshell from its description

of course there's no reason why you cant get the same with a pertex windshirt and a light fleece ...

my most used softshells so far this winter so far is my $50 MH chockstone weave softshell ...

i've got 3 membrane softshells that just sit on the rack (2 of them fancy yuppie dead birds) ... the only time im using those is if the temp never rises above 0F ... or as rock climbing belay jackets

sadly enough i bought into the softshell hype when everybody was getting their arcteryx gammas ... polartec powershield ...

lesson learned .... just because some "respected", and likely sponsored, climbers claim something is da bomb ... doesnt mean it is

i notice this even with the blogs most people frequent ... how many times have you seen a bad review? ... especially when the manuf provides the gear for testing ?

good softshell weave pants on the other hand ARE da bomb ... one purchase i dont regret

Edited by bearbreeder on 12/05/2010 21:01:05 MST.

Im not a huge fan of soft shell jackets, wear them only round town. At least for me the warmth to weight ratio just isnt there.

On the other hand i just did pick up some beyond clothing soft shell pants and they are awesome.

I can also recommend the rab vapour rise or alpine pull on - great stuff, I'm very happy to have it

I am going to start looking toward the end of the winter when the sales hit. That's what I did for my current setup:

Hiking- BPL Hoody, Columbua Light Fleece Zip Pullover and maybe a Thermawrap Vest. 20s-30s.

In Camp- Cap 3, TerraMar Zip Pullover, MontBell Down Inner Parka and either Thermawrap Vest or my Avalanche Fleece jacket. 10-20s.

Again- I was comfy and still had tons of mobility. Always size-up on outerlayers. I Want to replace the fleece with a lightweight softshell. MontBell al;ways scares me; too easy to tear, and I am a monster when it comes to "fragile" things.

Please keep them coming.

How much should a good softshell jacket weigh? Mine weighs 19oz and is from Avalanche Wear. Very Happy with it as well. Is that decent?

Edited by Sixguns01 on 12/06/2010 20:08:03 MST.

A softshell will weigh roughly between 12 and 20 ounces depending on size and features. I have Marmot Leadville that I use as my primary moving-insulation while backcountry skiing which weighs about 18 oz in size large.

My upper body kit for a day in the b.c. on my splitboard is as follows:

Merino Hoody
Softshell
Windshirt or rain shell
Puffy coat for rest stops

Hi Sam,
I'm just wondering if you wear a 'size up' on the wind-shirt and rain shell to fit over your 'puffy coat', or not?

Of course it depends on how puffy your coat is, but I can see advantages and disadvantages to either way. A wind-shirt over a quilted puffy jkt will add to its warmth, particularly in high winds. Ski-touring in Scotland (on my side of the pond) you could definitely be faced with heavy rain yet it be cold enough to necessitate a puffy coat! Of course a size up is heavier and when not worn with the puffy jacket underneath flapping and snagging are likely to occur.

Oliver
(Not John! I hope BPL will sort this error out soon!)

that's dependent on the manufacturer you are going with. there are a number gear makers that anticipate layering and have designed into their garment sizing that one will be layered over the other so that you keep the size you order the same. in some instances you actually have to size-down to get a garment to fit closer that was designed to go on over layers. it's great when you can find a manufacturer that has a consistent fit *model* so that you know what you are gonna get when you order an item.

I use TNF Cipher Hooded soft shell for 95% of my backcountry skiing. It is partly stretchy breathable stuff and part gore windstopper. So far it has worked very well. I'm not sure the exact weight of mine, but if I remember right it is about 16 oz.

I wear the following clothing from skin-out

Baselayer (always worn)
Softshell
Windshirt (or hardshell conditionally dependent)
Puffy (only worn while at rest)

Note the puffy goes on TOP of everything else. Softshell and windshirt are sized athletically to maximize heat-retention with minimal space between layers.

I derived my winter clothing layering system from the superb resource by Mark Twight entitled Extreme Alpinism. Aside from the terribly dated title the book is about as fine a publication as one can find for fast and light mountain tactics. It focuses a lot on alpine climbing but the knowledge applies well to hiking, backpacking, and skiing as well.

BPL member Dave Chenault wrote a timely blog post that references his softshell as a keystone piece in his winter ski touring get-up.

Read What I wore this past Saturday on the Bedrock and Paradox blog.

Thanks. I was just imagining you (Sam) wearing your puffy on cold descents where you might also want to throw a shell over it to protect it from damage (but that might be an unlikely scenario - I forget how sweat inducing ski descents are.)

I've read that Mark Twight is a notable critic of the 3 layer system. I'll put Extreme Alpinism on my to-read list.

While my powershield jacket didn't work out, the new Powershield Pro fabric looks pretty good if Polartec's marketing is to be believed. I think that only the North Face Kishtwar uses this stuff so far.

In the event that temps are very cold I am not afraid to descend with my puffy coat on. I typically bring the BPL Cocoon Hoody which has a shell of Pertex. If it rips on rock or a tree branch the synthetic insulation remains inside (down will blow all over) so I'm going to stay warm. As with most UL gear some care is required to avoid that situation.

according to polartec's own charts powershield pro is actually less breathable in some ways than normal powershield

just because some outdoor mag dependent on advertising recommends something ... doesnt mean its good for yr uses

I'd say that reduced breath-ability for improved wind resistance might actually be a good thing for that fabric. Guess it might depend on how you use it.

greg ...

imo the entire point of a softshell is to have good breathability ... if it's not that good you might as well get an event jacket

honestly at this point softshells have become more of an around the town fashion wear ... which is find if that's what it's marketed as ... but of course it isn't, it promoted as the best and latest, greatest thing for the outdoors

i have two artetyx gamma powershield jackets which prove otherwise ...you know the one that won multiple "awards"

OTH i look great walking around town in them ...

> powershield pro is actually less breathable in some ways than normal powershield

ugh! powershield normal wasn't breathable enough for me. Making it mor weather protective and less breathable is the wrong direction. If you want that type of protection go with an eVENT hardshell.

--mark

Powershield comes in a number of different guises with varying degrees of CFM, therefore varying levels of breathability (it's a huge range, and if my memory serves me right stretches from something like 8cfm to around 30).

Pro and O2 are just at two different ends of the spectrum. The idea being that you might find one shell better suits you and your activities than others. However the branded products haven't been sold with their fabric CFMs stated. As this stands, I can't see how consumers are going to be able to make a judgement about what Powershield products to go for.

A possible disadvantage to Powershield-type laminated soft-shells that might be related to a perception of poor breathability, is that moisture condensing or being wicked into the fleece layer isn't then pulled through to an evaporative surface (as with a denier gradient fleece), but instead reach a PU membrane, albeit a perforated one letting some air through. Whether this actually inhibits moisture transfer out of the garment and in to what degree in varying wind and temperature scenarios would be hard to ascertain.

Thats what my contour was WED when I went to play across the street from MT Hood. 3rd most rain in a 24hr period this year. which is only 1.4 inches, but...

so I was in SW light/ arm warmers thin MB vest and OR Contour. The Contour has served me well until today. The rain picked up a little and we were in a little open area. It was steep enough to hold onto tree branches and waist deep. Slow movin. It was about 30 min out in the open and my butt was soaked. it wasn't sweat either.

I will say though, my buddy Chris weighs in at like 135 and is 6 foot or so and I guess he doesn't put out as much heat because he had a TNF membrane softshell- one of the flight ones (not familiar so...) it has chest vents and he was vented, but he had the hood up. He was warm and dry the whole time.

So what I learned: My Contour is way less water resistant than I thought. Next time out I'm gonna try my old MH Manticore it hard on the shoulders, chest and sleeves- Conduit on the back (thats the only place my Contour was dry- proving I wasn't sweating)

Luckily I had my Frostline and - you called it Eric- I hiked down with it on. I didn't get hot and I had a good bit of drying happen to my clothes underneath due to the heat that I did generate on the downhill. It stopped raining too- which helped to dry

+1 on the Patagonia Ready Mix, my size L is about 14-15 oz. Wife wears it as well (see the double blaze orange on us in my avatar photo). Very breathable and quite durable with extra patches in high wear areas.

Like Sam we built our winter kit on Mark Twight's recommendations:

-Ibex merino L/S Woolies next-to-skin
-Patagonia R1 Hoody mid-layer
-Patagonia Ready Mix Jacket
-Montbell Thermawrap sizes to go over all during rest stops or in camp

In very cold weather, we substitute a Patagonia DAS Parka for the Montbell Thermawrap, and sometimes add either a special edition Patagonia R2 vest over the R1 Hoody, or substitute a special edition Patagonia R2 jacket for the R1 Hoody - this special edition R2 fleece was made with much longer synthetic hairs than the regular R2, and the jacket has only hand pockets and no chest pocket and weighs about 11 ounces in my size L. I could further reduce the weight by cutting out a little excess fabric to tighten the fit. No hood but it's thicker and warmer than the R1 Hoody while still very breathable. Funny that these 2 special edition "mistake" or more kindly "experimental" garments were actually a much better warmth/weight deal than the regular R2 at the time.

I also read good things about the Rab Alpine Pull-On softshell on Mark Verber's website, which weighs only 9 oz. Anyone else try it?

It's an eVent jacket at about 12 oz. I have a similar Montbell hardshell that is a little less breathable but still very breathable that weighs the same, but I prefer the Ready Mix for winter when it's cold enough to snow.

jeff ...

the water resistance on a weave softshell, or at least mine, is depedent on the state of the DWR ... i always test before i go out if a water beads off with a quick spray on the shower

that said ... anything more than a prolonged sprinkle will likely wet out a windshirt or weave softshell jacket.... pants seem to fine for longer

membreane softshells do have better water resistance as they are laminates ... but those will wet out ... i remember practicing rope work in the middle of a squamish sprinkly/rainy day ... after a few hours my dead bird gamma powershield softshell was fairly soaked ... note that it was still warm, but it took quite a bit longer to dry than my weave pants

at the end of the day its a tradeoff ... windshirts and weave soft shells have higher breathability yet lower weather reistance than membrane ones ..

my view is that if its really raining, on goes the hardshell ... i can always take off the hardshell later or just sit out the rain in it ... with a membrane softshell however im stuck cant take it off if without giving up wind protection ... cant just stand in the rain too long without risking a soaking

i will say however that for some girls membrane softshells can work quite well as they sweat much less than guys ...

at the end of the day find what works for you and stick with it ... im personally moving more towards a windshirt/light fleece/hardshell with a total weight of 5+7 + 6 = 18 oz .... vs. my old membrane softshell with a weight of 18+ oz ... same weight more flexibility ...

btw .. do you know which softshell yr friend was using?

Edited by bearbreeder on 12/10/2010 19:50:01 MST.

Eric, which makes and models are those pieces and what size do you wear? They sound mighty light.

marmot trail wind (still testing, doesnt seem like the most breathable winshirt) ... 5 oz
pataguci cap 4 sweater ... 7 oz
OR helium ... 6 oz

total 18 oz

or ill take

MH chockstone ... 14 oz
OR helium ... 6 oz

total 20 oz

add a belay jacket on top of course when stopped

all medium

Edited by bearbreeder on 12/10/2010 19:48:49 MST.

Patagucci, yes indeed, if you buy at full retail. But so many opportunities to buy at 20-25% off from retailers and less from the outlets if you can wait a season or two.

I'm assuming the Cap 4 is made of Polartec Power Dry, which is very good stuff.

Which belay jacket do you use, and is it synthetic or down?

How do you find the OR Helium?

I use a Patagonia Houdini for wind shirt. One of my most used pieces. Tried the Montane Lightspeed a while back side by side - no comparison - it was less breathable and less water resistant and heavier.

Edited by mountainwalker on 12/10/2010 19:59:38 MST.

belay jackets depend on the situation

for 20F+ i'll use

MB ex light ... 5 oz down
dead bird atom lt ... 14 oz synth

19 oz belay + rest = 37 oz (not incl pants and base)

for below that i'll bring

MB ex light ... 5 oz down
OR chaos ... 22 oz synth

27 oz belay + rest = 45 oz (not incl pants and base)

the helium is light and well built ... its not the most breathable so you need to be careful about sweating in it ... the weight saving though is too much to ignore ... it weights 1/5th of my previous dead bid hardshell

cap 4 i believe is a lighter version of the powderdry in the R1

funny enough you can get a lot of patagucci knockoffs for cheaper ... EB, MEC, and others ...

Edited by bearbreeder on 12/11/2010 00:39:53 MST.

Eric:

What have you thought of the Atom LT? I like the idea of the more breathable stretch side panels... but I haven't see what it realistically weights, nor how it compares warmth wise to something like the MB ex light? Any observations you would like to share. Seems like it could be an excellent midlayer for active wear in very cold conditions. I need to replace my worn out thermawrap jacket.

--Mark

mark ...

i have mixed emotions about the atom lt hoody

on one hand it is
- highly brethable ... the fleece side panels breath well ... the nylon shells is very breathable
- fits well ... i am a perfect dead bird medium
- had good DWR ... as good as any windshirt i know off
- has a great easy to use big zipper
- dries fairly quickly

on the other hand it
- uses only 60g/m coreloft ... the MB thermawrap BC/parka uses 80 g/m, patagucci nano and EB FA serrano 60g/m primaloft one
- its not very warm ... thats a limitation of synthetics ... the MB EXL is much warmer
- has a fragile inner fabric ... the nylon threads started coming loose ... all arteryx said was "oh its fragile"
- is expensive, no worse than patagucci ... definately more expensive than MB or EB

it'll works decently well as an active cold weather, though you will sweat into it if yr not careful ... i think a fleece under the windshirt would work just as well though for a little weight penalty ... sometimes its a toss up on whether i bring the fleece or the atom ... they do make a decent belay microparka

they arent bad if you need something that you can wear when semi-active ... but i dont feel its anything special ... same story IMO for most dead bird gear

mine weights between 13-14oz in medium hoody

Edited by bearbreeder on 12/11/2010 01:20:43 MST.

thanks eric... sounds like a pass for me. it was tempting because it really fit well.

--mark

man I checked out his jacket. Its hooded, two-tone orange, Summit series (not flight), Apex. So I poked around on Google and came up with:


This is the older Valkyrie and I think that my friend has the orange one. The slanted pockets on the chest are mesh. got it almost brand new at a garage sale for $20- S.o.b. ha


My contour is new so the DWR was in good shape (although it never really beaded water, I should have taken the hint). I've never been wet in it before, obv it just hadn't rained hard enough on me yet...duh!
Guess its a day hiker now.

I'll try my Manticore within a week or two- hopefully it'll be crappy weather so I can do a good test. I've just been hesitant to try hardshells again after wetting them out so bad earlier in life- although now I'm smarter about removing layers, and my TNF MTN jacket c.1992 probably wasn't very breathable anyway. (and 3 jackets to heavy for the southeast-lol)

Mark and Eric, I thought the Atom LT wouldn't be anywhere near as warm as my Montbell Thermawrap Parka, partly because of the Wind Pro with Hardface panels. Hardface is an excellent material for around town or high abrasion uses and holds up very well long term without pilling (it's also great for pet owners in that it doesn't hold animals hairs), but I have found that it is less warm than Wind Pro - I speculate that the Hardface coating decreases the thickness of the insulation.

For example, I have a Wind Pro with Hardface jacket that weighs about 14 oz, and a Wind Pro Micro Fleece Jacket that weighs the same, and the Micro Fleece jacket is much warmer alone and under a shell. The Hardface jacket though always looks more presentable because it never pills.

According to Malden Mills, Hardface doesn't really add any warmth or much wind resistance - that comes from the Wind Pro itself.

Part of this Backcountry review confirmed it for me:
"The atom makes a nice, light layer, but its not much of a cold-weather jacket. Wind flies through every seam. Every breeze sends cold air swirlign around my arms. And the fleece breathes way too much for me. The jacket keeps my back toasty and my head warm while my arms, armpits and shoulders freeze. Its an odd combination. The Atom must be meant for hot blooded people who need to dump lots of heat. The Atom would give them a sweaty back though, but they wouldnt be chilled by it."

When I throw on my insulation layer at rest stops, I want instant warmth. If I need to vent, I open the front zipper. Mine is sized up one size to go over shell and all.

jeff ... looks like a valkryie ... its polartec windbloc ... interesting i havent had much experience with that fabric ... it is a laminate and 25oz ! ... try washing yr contour with sports wash and putting it in the dryer on low-mod heat .. see if the water beads off after

mark ... i guess it depends how much you can get it on sale ... i bought it for the same reason, it fit really well.. and the yuppie dead bird name of course ... for active use it aint bad ...for more passive use a thermawrap parka or a nanopuff or some 60-100g/m primaloft PL1 would be my choice

EJ ... i actually had a hard face windpro (you guessed it!) dead bird tau ... i used it a decent amount in the summer as it saves me having to bring a windshirt as well on climbs ... i cant speak to the warmth compared to non hardface, but it seems warm enough ,,, for the atom i never notice the hardface panels getting colder to tell you the truth ... it is less warm than other micro belay parkas ... but i think mainly due to the coreloft vs PL1, or in 60g vs 80g vs the MB ... i actually wouldnt recommend anything less than 100g/m PL1 for temps near or below freezing if its yr only puffy

Edited by bearbreeder on 12/11/2010 13:03:57 MST.

I've been playing with the Arcteryx Accelero jacket (8.8oz in medium).
http://arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?EN/Mens/Jackets/Accelero-Jacket

Doing the blow test between this my Marmot Ion windshirt(0-3 CFM) and Patagonia Ascentionist softshell(5CFM) the Accelero is very air permeable, I'd hazard a guess that it is similar to Pertex Equilibrium (10 CFM).

I've been using it in 15F with a 200 gm/m ls merino wool shirt with no noticable moisture after a 30 min. run. In 30F with a 165gm/m ss merino wool shirt and after a 30 min. run noticed a little moisture on the back.

To compare, usually wear the 200 gm/m ls merino only in 25F+ conditions.
In 25-10F conditions I've used the same ls merino shirt under the Marmot Ion and it is usually wet not only on the back but on the arms as well on the inside.

The only downside is that it has no hood for stormy conditions which I like to have for backpacking/hiking but for running and MTB riding I don't need the hood and is the reason I got this softshell


I may end up with one of those RAB Alpine Pull-Ons because of the hood.

So I continue to be impressed with my Dead Bird Accelero Jacket.

The CS Rep. @ Arcteryx told me that the CFM for this jacket is between 15-20 and if I wanted a solid number he could talk to one of their Tech. Reps.

I've taken this jacket down to -5F with a SS Wool 2 crew, an Ibex Indie Hoody and 100wt fleece vest while snowshoeing with no noticeable moisture. When turning down hill I've added my windshirt and been perfectly comfortable.