It doesn't say that anywhere on their site. I followed the directions. The down is still down and doesn't gain anything with age so it shouldn't matter how far the usage or washings are spaced. Now if you say to me, 'our bag can take only ten washings and then it is done' I would have never bought it in the first place and went with something else but they did not. What if I decided to use it for a full year out and about, it would have 6-7 washes by then. Shouldn't it hold up then?

Edited by bpeugh on 12/05/2010 11:35:58 MST.

I've started doing a quick cleaning after every trip. I start by shaking the bag out to remove any grass, leaves, crumbs or other junk that found it's way into the bag. Then I toss the bag in the dryer with a wet washcloth for about 15 min, remove the washcloth, and go another 15 min or so. It really seems to clean the outer fabric and restore the loft completely. I think it does wear the DWR off a little faster, but that can be easily renewed with Revivex every now and then while I'm doing the dryer thing. It's really not much effort to do this, and combined with sleeping in long pants/sleeves/socks/usually a hat too, it seems to make a huge difference. I've even thrown it in the dryer for a few minutes before packing for a trip, but that's probably overkill.

Seems to me a lot of strange stuff going on here. First is too much washing. When my bag shows signs of loft loss (every 3-5 years), I wash it. Of course, I always wear longs to bed, and wash my face an neck before bed if not wearing a balaclava, and this keeps it pretty clean. If you are not willing to take at least these simple precautions to protect your UL down gear then I agree you should sell you WM bag and stick to something with a lower higher weight:warmth ratio. But the clumping is also a little outside the normal, by the sounds of it. By that I mean, yes, down does clump when wet, but I manage to dry my WM bags without a drier by just hanging them in the sun over a hot day or two with occasional fluffing and gentle hand declumping. I've never seen clumping so bad that it couldn't be dealt with over a day or two of gentle drying. Makes me wonder if the down is truly clean, or rinsed well enough, or maybe there are other contaminants in the washing machine/drier?? Maybe the drier is just set to low and it needs longer to achieve full dryness.

I have only washed bags in my bathtub and then air dried them.
Takes me two-three days in hot weather or warm and windy.
I have done bags from 550 to 850 (+/_) it has worked well with all of them.
My guess is that Lynn is on to something here :
" Makes me wonder if the down is truly clean, or rinsed well enough,or maybe there are other contaminants in the washing machine/drier "
Recently my top loader started flooding . That was caused by a build up of detergent around the sensors. A couple of washes using the HOT cycle fixed that.
I normally use warm/cold and that does allow detergent build up.
Anyway I really don't get the bit about blaming WM.
Franco

"If the bag can't take 10 washings over its life, I don't want it. "

I feel the same way about cars and paper plates.

Exactly ten washes in ten months is very dif than ten washes in 10 years! I learnt about down with a NF down vest. I think for the most part down is something you should take every precaution in keeping clean as it does not like to be washed. I dont think the brand has anything to do with it!! Over wash it or wash it wrong once and you will know it.

This isn't a problem with Western Mountaineering, this is a user error resulting in damage to a product. When you create the defect, you can't blame the manufacturer.

I think you should've reflected on this a little more prior to posting a public slam against WM when you created the problem, continued to make it worse, and still fail to see it as such.

If any washing gets done on my bags it is with a spray bottle of Resolve and a damp rag. If it needs freshened up then it gets a good spray in and out with febreez.

Franco said:.

"I have only washed bags in my bathtub and then air dried them.
Takes me two-three days in hot weather or warm and windy.
I have done bags from 550 to 850 (+/_) it has worked well with all of them."

Ditto. Blaming WM makes no sense. Blaming high end/high fill power down makes more sense, but blaming the user makes even more sense. High fill power down, like most UL gear, needs to be taken care of and kept as clean as possible. The down and baffles are very fragile, and frequent washing in commercial washing machines and drying with tennis balls and shoes seems a dodgy practice IMHO. If this is how you need to treat your gear, then get a sleeping bag with higher feather content, and more durable fabrics and baffles, etc...

Brett, bummer on the bag. I have it in my mind that every washing takes a little of the life out of the feathers, one way or the other. I would add though that you would most likely have this problem with other bags given the same circumstances, especially if in trying all these fixes you might only be exacerbating the problem. I have a summerlight that will be getting a wash soon, its starting to not look as puffy, its spent about 50 nights out, I notice humid nights have a lasting effect on the bag for a trip, however laying it out in the sun it lofts right back up. In the future if you stay using down bags I would try this trick. If you find that the loft is starting to suffer, before washing it, try just throwing it in the dryer, this works for me and keeps the bags looking great. Sometimes i like to do it with my duvet before bed so that I climb under a nice warm fluffy cover. I also hold out on washing my bags until I feel it is necessary.

My thing about WM more has to do with the fact they they had no way to figure out what is wrong with the bag. The only thing they were able to come up with was that it wasn't dried enough. Then why does it ball up more the more I dry it? They don't have either a washer or dryer at their facility and they were unwilling to wash the bag to get rid of any possible extra detergent or oils if that was the case or for extra drying if the down was still wet. And it took them a month and about 8 calls on my part for it to get to that point. The fact that they don't list their phone number was just another small part of that. I know they try but I was just disappointed in their customer service especially since they had such glowing reviews on here and they charge a good deal for their bags.

And so I errored by washing it 10 times? So then sleeping bags can't be washed 10 times? I had a Marmot bag from 1986 until about 2 years ago with 725 or 775 fill and I washed it each year from all of the scouting stuff that I did. No problems. But maybe it is the higher power down. It really doesn't matter to me what the reason is anymore, I am just trying to figure out what that reason is with certainty.

Actually I had a memory flash and to go back through the records and it was not it that I washed the Caribou 10 times. It started doing it on the second wash before I sent it in. It was the another bag I washed ten times in about two years because it is an old 550 beater bag. Inverted the names. Sorry.

Yes, I don't always wear long johns or a balaclava but it is only a 35F rated bag so I didn't always have the need for it and it never said that I would have to do something like that in order to use the bag on the site.

Anyways, I don't want to be bitching and I will stop now. Thanks for all of the info and hints though so if I ever do have problems in the future I can address them better.

"They don't have either a washer or dryer at their facility and they were unwilling to wash the bag to get rid of any possible extra detergent or oils if that was the case or for extra drying if the down was still wet."

That doesn't surprise me as they manufacture new bags. Laundering old bags is not something they claim to do, and in fact most manufacturers I have dealt with won't even look at a repair job unless the item is cleaned before it is sent in.

"I know they try but I was just disappointed in their customer service especially since they had such glowing reviews on here and they charge a good deal for their bags."

They get glowing reviews for the quality of the products they produce, not, as far as I know, for their customer service. I, like most WM owners, have never had a need to test their customer service, so can't comment on it. I would suggest that yours is an unusual situation for whatever reason. I don't think anyone can explain the clumping without seeing exactly what you do/don't do. One thing I always do it to weigh my bag before and after washing. This gives me a good idea as to when it is absolutely 100% dry...that and a good hand washing to make sure the bag is completely washed and thoroughly rinsed, followed by a gentle spin in a washing machine and a line dry. I don't trust a washing machine for the washes and rinses as too much air can get trapped in the bag, causing the wash liquid and rinses missing a lot of the down. But I am really stunned that your bag should need washing that often!! Maybe try some silk pyjamas or a bag liner or something???

Actually I do what they say to do on the website. Except for they also suggest to take it out every 15 minutes in the dryer and pound it.

I have a Caribou and Alpinlite, and haven't washed either. No great need to do so yet, even after 250+ nights in the latter. Great bags!

Edited by DaveT on 12/05/2010 18:39:44 MST.

Brett,

Sorry about your poor experience with WM. I've wondered about not listing a phone number on their website as well and have been told it is done on purpose. They prefer questions go thru their dealers.

I have no idea on why your particular problem is happening, but it does seem to well outside of every experience I've every had or heard about with WM! Occasionally lightning does strike, so it is possible you may have gotten a bad batch of down, or somewhere in the washes done something to cause damage.

Either way, my experiences with WM and their products has been outstanding.

WM phone number is 408 287 8944

Id be willing to bet that a lot of the high fill down used by these bag and coat manufs come from similar sources .... Despite what the marketing flacks claim

if there was a problem with the bag .... More people would have issues

id wash a down bag or coat no more than once every year

You should however dry it when needed

Brett, you're an overwasher.

Lyn wrote:
> Of course, I always wear longs to bed, and wash my face an neck before bed if
> not wearing a balaclava, and this keeps it pretty clean.

But then, Lyn is smart.

Cheers
(Yes, we do that too.)

Yeah, I have a set of night cloths I always use too. Different than regulure hiking cloths.
Anyway, the general concensus seems to be one of:
1) Over washing (mild soap, half or less quantity, only if needed)
2) Possible contamination from comercial washers (detergent.)

On another vein, one thing that was not mentioned was bugs. I have had some pretty nasty bug incursions into my fly tying gear, eating my hackle/wing materiel. If the bag was stored at all damp, this could also be the problem. Spraying with a good insecticide is by far the best for combating those. After a week spray again. After a few days, wash in warm water...in the tub. But, this is permanent damage, too. It happens quite a bit in NY, but we get pretty humid conditions spring, summer(some years) and fall. Anyway, this damage will often result in a lot of loose barbules floating around (like short threads) than easy wind up as little balls after a washing. The bag will also have a disinct "wild" odor from their sheit. You kill all the adults, you kill eggs, and you kill newly hatched ones, soo, timing is pretty critical. I have never had this problem with one of my bags, but it is certainly possible.

(Anyway, assuming you have dried the bag pretty well over the past three or four days.)
To repair the down is probably not feasible. You mentioned it was overfilled by WM. Soo, it should be at least up to factory specs. Spray it with insecticide as outlined, just to be sure about the bugs.

For future use:
1) Use night cloths to keep the bag clean.
2) Wash in a tub, one or twice per year, as needed.
3) Periodically, put it in a dryer with some balls.
4) Keep the down dry, never stored damp, even if it means putting it in the dryer when you get home. (I do that a lot, anyway. It helps a bit with lofting.)
5) Store it loose, as always.

With the overfill installed by WM, you should be happy with the bag. Some experiences with items can leave you with a bad feeling about the manufacturor...look at car owners. I would venture to say you could easily sell the bag here and get a Featherd Friends or similar good bag. Make sure to post about the down damage and the replaced overfill done by WM to be honest with any buyer.

My thoughts only . . .
jdm