I just got the news i will probably be getting a winter bag for Christmas from my mother. Apparently she is a little worried about me playing out in the white mountains in the winter all by my lonesome all winter. I cant blame her but bags are so expensive i figured i was just gonna be saving for a while and being real real careful!!!

So the bag will be only for emergency situations as i am only planning day trips at the moment. That will change in time but i need a tent and i just cant afford it all at the moment. I want to go with down for weight and space. However if the bag is for a emergency situation only i figure synthetic would be a better choice as it will still keep me worm if i am injured and laying in the snow?

If i was to go with what i thought i needed and made sense long term i guess i would go -25-45 FF or WM with some kind of windproof/waterproof fabric. These bags are like $800 or so though. Mammut makes a bag rated to the same temp for $680 and i can find it on sale for like $550 or maybe used lightly for $400. What are thoughts on all this, mostly can i get away with less bag with good down clothes, i dont wanna find myself cold!!!!

I want something to keep me worm in the coldest weather that can be thrown at me as the cold will not keep me in the house as i have all the right clothing to deal with it and dont mind it. So that makes me think a -40 bag is what i need as wind and cold can be a b@tch and you can never be to warm if you are trapped far from heat.

I am kinda thinking though that i may not use this thing this winter at all as i dont plan on having an emergency and maybe i would be just fine with a warm down coat and down pants and a bag made more for summer like down to 10-15%

Edited by apbt1976 on 12/04/2010 20:18:20 MST.

For what you describe I would not buy a -40dF bag. Way overkill and way too warm for normal use. I have one and even at 10DF its way too hot.

If you are injured in the snow and climb into a bag with no mat no matter what the rating, you will be just as cold in synthetic as down 0df, -40df or whatever. If synthetic gets wet, it is true that it will keep you somewhat warm, but you dont really want to be in a wet bag
in 0DF no matter what.

I think the real benefit is they dry faster.

Personally I would get something as small and light as possible for packing like a 10-20 DF down or climasheild quilt with DWR with some good insulated tops and bottoms as an extender and a set of vapor barrier tops and bottoms. Maybe a MYOG tyvek bivy sack too and a tarp and a minimal pad.

Think layering inside a bag or quilt so when its really cold just take more layers. If you have a summer bag you could also take it as an extender.

Still a down, synthetic or whatever wont cut it if your head is not in the right place in a bad situation. Maybe read a couple of books, like the SAS survival book.

Shelter, fire/water, food in that order.

With the right kind of setup and a fire you can get by with
pretty minimal gear, you just need good fire building skills.

Tom Browns higher survival class winter 2 takes place in Montana in mid winter, and on that little adventure, you take only a few items like clothing and a knife etc and live in that situation for a while.

There are certain essentials that everyone should carry, but a -40DF bag would be way down on the list as far as pure survival.

Edited by tammons on 12/04/2010 20:37:47 MST.

If you're thinking of getting into winter camping later then get a decent down bag, preferrably one with a lot of water resistance (good DWR).

But for emergencies you'll also need a shelter and some kind of insulation under your bag. A minimal silnylon tarp and a closed cell pad like a Z-Rest would do for a forced overnight stay. Be SURE to try it out in your backyard first.

In a forced overnighter building a snow windbreak near your tarp entrance helps, OR learning to build a 1/2 snow trench & 1/2 leg tunnel W/ the tarp over the trench & its entrance helps. Skills & experience are at least as
important as equipment.

You may want to take a look at the EMS Mountain Light bags. They've been on sale for 20-30% off for a while now and the -20 bag starts at $399. That means you're talking $319 for a winter bag, since you're lucky enough to live in a state without sales tax.

I would go with something a little more versatile and packable than a -40F. A WM Lynx rated at -10F and with a claimed weight of 3lb 2oz would be a good choice. In addition I would carry a bivy sack, down or synthetic full length pad (R5 or R6 at least), and possibly the means to dig into snow. The Lynx would be a useful bag for winter camping all around New England. If you bring a -40F synthetic bag your 'daypack' will likely be over 3000ci.

Actually now that I am thinking about this a bit more, I think some good tools tools and knowledge to help you survive are more important than one piece of equipment. If its -10 and any bag gets wet, your tarp or tent blows away or have any other of a myriad of problems, you should still have some backup tools and skills IMO.

I would learn how to build a debris shelter and sleep in it one night with nothing but a wool blanket or a med emer survival bivy bag and maybe in the rain. You can carry a space blanket in your pocket. The med emer bivy is a bit more refined and heavy duty but 7 oz.

Learn how to get your shelter working with a fire to help keep you warm, IE reflectors etc. That will take care of shelter and if you have a tarp bag or tent that just makes it easier.

With a good shelter, a good fire and some skills you can survive a very cold night in a wool blanket.

Maybe try a snow cave in the winter.

I have 3 survival items I carry. 2 all the time.
One on a Keyring, one in a small altoids can my pocket, and a suplemental pouch.

On the keyring, Fire steel and striker, GI can opener, Tiny flashlight, Tiny swiss army knife.

In a tiny altoids can I carry, $, 1 micro pack antibiotic
1 condom, 2 water tablets, 16' of spiderwire cord, Emer Saw, length of SS wire, Brunton button compass, 2 fish hooks, 1 needle, 1 xacto blade, 2 Suture strip bandaids, 5 wp matches, 1 micro mag glass, 1 length of tinder cord with a fat rubber band around the box
Weighs something like 1.5 oz.

In the suplemental I carry an emer poncho, 1 gal plastic bag, Larger piece of fire starter, gorrilla tape, 1/2 of a frostking sliding glass door insul kit (which is polycro about 4'x8' and very light),Space blanket, a few more bandaids, small gauze pad, a bit of toilet paper, tealight candle, micro flashlight, lighter, wp matches, a spare compass, iodine pills, micro bug spray, and a sport size quick clot. Those 3 go with me anytime I am outdoors hunting, hiking or whatever.

I also carry the swiss army knife with the saw most all the time. I am confident I could survive pretty much anywhere except severe cold for a day or two with that gear and some ingenuity.

Also when just out wandering around I like to carry a good knife, a gerber collapsable saw (the 3 oz one), a healthy length of paracord, gloves, bandana, and a campmor 5'x9' poncho/tarp. Also something to boil water in.

Edited by tammons on 12/04/2010 21:41:19 MST.

a winter bag for a day hike seems very very over kill 4ish pounds you will never use, you said you do not have a tent yet, why not start with a nice multi use shelter mld duo, or something that you can use in the winter and summer, or even a tarp if you do not have one yet.

then you can have time to pick out a bag after doing your day hikes this winter on sale at the end the the season for next winter.


if you really need something for day hikes, get a nice thick set of down pants/ a jacket /down booties (which pull double use as you can use them for rest breaks ), a blizzard bivy or something similar and a shovel.

I kinda thought i would get an answer something like this. Mostly the -40 bag is overkill part. Even without really knowing i kinda though if i get to much bag i will sweat and just get the bag wet and that could matter on multi day trips. I figure you can use some kinda liner to solve the problem but i dont really know.

I get the whole know what you are doing first as that is what will save your life before good gear will. However that is just gonna take time along with reading reading reading and trial and error. I think that is the best advice you all could give me though!!!

The only other thing i can say is i will end up doing some winter camping at some point as i gain knowledge of the outdoors in the winter. Prob next year but that is not all that far away. A bag that will take me winter camping would also be nice but it would also benice to not have to have a summer/late spring early and fall bag, and rather just a winter and spring fall bag as i dont hike in summer. I will only be doing day trips this season and not having to pack a 4lb bag would be very nice. Can i use a 10% bag in the spring and fall or is that way to warm. If i can that is much better option at the moment as i will get three seasons out of it and it will cost half as much!!!

I was kinda thinking a lighter bag a tarp and some down pants and some kinda shovel might be exactly what i need. If that be the case what degree of bag do i need. 10% 20% - 15%

I am gonna get the EB Peak XV down jacket this week and have considered a down pant from WM or FF.

Other than braking a leg above tree line in nasty nasty cold weather i am pretty sure i could figure out how to get a shelter and fire going to stay somewhat warm till someone came looking. And they def would within 24-48 hrs as someone always knows where i am going and when to expect me back plus calls to check in before i head into the woods and when i get out of the woods. If something happens bad enough that i cant do this much though i assume i am as good as dead if someone does not stumble across me by mistake.

So the bag what temp rating. Will i be able to use it in the deep cold or fall or spring or will it just be for this purpose?

"Other than braking a leg above tree line in nasty nasty cold weather i am pretty sure i could figure out how to get a shelter and fire going to stay somewhat warm till someone came looking. And they def would within 24-48 hrs as someone always knows where i am going and when to expect me back plus calls to check in before i head into the woods and when i get out of the woods. If something happens bad enough that i cant do this much though i assume i am as good as dead if someone does not stumble across me by mistake."

Think over these situations and think about your preparedness.

Some years ago, I hiked Mount Washington NH with a foot or two of snow on the summit. I had started up at 9 a.m. and made it back down safely at 5 p.m. However, there was a stranger who had started slightly later and went slower. He was up around the Alpine Garden Trail and got pinned down by high winds. He was not prepared to wait it out, so the only thing he could do was to call 911 on the cell phone and hope that he got connected. (That is expecting a lot.) The 911 dispatcher in North Conway got it, heard the situation, and sent the SAR guys up the mountain road in a snow cat. The hiker wasn't too far off the mountain road, so the SAR guys were able to find him, snatch him up, and haul him out to a hospital with frostbite. I heard the news on the radio that night, so I was glad that it wasn't me.

--B.G.--

I did Washington last Monday in 4:20 top to bottom in 6-10 inches of snow. It was not very cold out that day maybe 10% on the top.. Windy though!! Anyway... a couple days ago i was on a local forum and noticed a thread about a guy that the day before me fell through some ice on Madison up to his chest and had to call to be brought out. Shit does happen hence me at least wanting to have dec gear to say wait out a situation if need be.

Edited by apbt1976 on 12/04/2010 22:46:02 MST.

Yes, you really have to think it over.

To some people, the way to survive is to have 25 pounds of gear to use (sleeping bag, tent, etc.) for that emergency overnight situation.

To others, that extra 25 pounds just means 25 pounds worth of ballast to slow you down, which might mean that you can't reach your objective, which means more of a chance that you will have to spend a night out.

Each hiker has to make his own decisions. Meanwhile, it would be smart to join an organization or form a club. Even if it means only two or three others, that would be a safer way to go rather that going solo.

--B.G.--

And i will join a club. However i will always go solo most of the time as that is what really draws me to being out in the woods the most. Something about being all alone and at one with the earth kinda crap thing blah blah blah. At this Point i am very fit and i think even with 40-50 lbs on my back i would make the same progress as say the 20 i had the other day. I get your point though it is dangerous and i need to be careful. Hence why i dont shy from asking questions and looking like exactly what i am a guy that is pushing it a little bit and if not careful could end u hurt or worse.

I am gonna take some ice climbing lessons as i would like to more do mixed climbing route type stuff. I think this will give me a chance to really talk to some people about solo outdoor winter travel.

No need to carry so much stuff just to survive.

Just work on your skills and carry less, IE grab the SAS manual and go camping with a friend in mild weather with nothing and work your way up.

Basically everything you see on any survival TV show or youtube is covered in the SAS survival manual.

Also since you are hiking alone always leave an itinerary couple of people.

My last full on mild weather survival pack weighed about
5# with everything including bag, pad, shelter, cooking, survival, medical. It was actually more of a very minimalist SUL hiking kit.

For survival you can always put down some tree boughs for ground insulation if you are below the tree line, but in the 5# pack above I carried one of these in XS which weighs 8 oz. They roll up very small. Better than nothing.

http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/fast-and-light/prolite/product

You need a small survival kit with all the normal stuff, whistle, mirror, light, matches etc etc. Youtube
has a lot of survival kit videos.
The Adventure Medical Pocket Survival Pak has most of the small stuff you need.

You need a small medical disaster kit.
Quick clot, superglue, a needle and thread, a couple of pads and some duct tape is about as simple as it gets.

The main 1st enemy is exposure and you can get hypothermia if wet in 50DF weather which is not very cold. Just think of a situation where all you gear gets wet in near freezing temps, which has happened to me. Cloths sleeping bag and all and how you recover from that.

So 1st order is to get dry and or stay dry depending on what happens. If you dont have a 2nd change of dry cloths it is imperative that you build a fire to dry your clothing and gear out. That is one time a synthetic bag makes more sense.

I carry quite a few ways to start a fire. A lighter in my pocket, one in the pack, a fire steel in my pocket, water proof matches, a tiny lens out of a camera lens, and a med aventure sparker. I also carry several types of tinder to catch a spark and some heavy duty fire starter. I bought these giant matches from Publix a while back. They are about 1.5" wide and about 4" long and go up in a good hot flame. They are made for grills. Good stuff. Many more fire starter methods like cotton balls soaked in vasoline, but thats the one I like

IMO a good solid knife and a folding or collapsable saw is a must like a gerber or kershaw. I like my Gerber saw so much I use it around the house for trimming trees and shrubs.

If you are stuck and you have time and material you can survive in a debris shelter overnight. If I remember right Cody Lundin lived in a wikiup for a few years while in college. You dont really have to have tools to build one, but a knife, saw, paracord, and a couple of plastic garbage bags and a sheet of plastic makes it a lot easier.

If below freezing and there is enough snow is around, you can build a snowcave and with just a candle will stay just at freezing, but you need a shovel. A couple of 9 hour candles is not a bad thing to have. Also something to boil water in, but I would assume for a day hike you will have some sort of decent size metal cup.

The dual survival show in Nova Scotia where Cody Lundin builds what he called a "super shelter" is when I started carrying a piece of sheet plastic besides a space blanket. Find some natural debris to form the back, space blanket on the back as a reflector, clear plastic on the front to trap the heat and build a fire in front of it. I tried out a makeshift rig about a month ago and its pretty amazing how warm it gets inside.

The trick is to find the right plastic so that sparks from the fire wont burn through it.
They do make fire retardant clear plastic sheeting, but I have yet to try any out.

I will post a link to my current survival pack list later today.
Where you are you would mostly need to add more cloths and a bit more gear.

Edited by tammons on 12/05/2010 07:55:50 MST.

I agree with the comments that you should develop a winter survival kit and skills, rather than a cumbersome bag. If your Mom really wants to spend some coin, I would consider a PLB.

Be very careful with what you see on the TV survival shows. They are rather unrealistic and developed mostly for audience appeal. They are pretty good comedy, though. Survivorman is probably the best of the lot.

Check out the Equipped to Survive website. There is some very good stuff there.

Basically, you need the ability and means to provide shelter and fire. You will be surprised at how little you have to carry to achieve these ends. I know I have been. A good lightweight stove can simplify the process quite a bit. You might consider that.

You should not have to add more than five pounds to your pack, tops.

Read some mountaineering literature. I recommend Mountaineering:Freedom of the Hills. At some point nearly every climber will become benighted. You are wise to be thinking about this and preparing.

In terms of a gift list (from least to most expensive), you mom might consider:

1) Mountaineering:Freedom of the Hills and various survival manuals.
2)enrolling you in a good first aid course
3)a nice, light stove
4)a PLB or SPOT - check Equipped To Survive for some very good info on these items

I hope Santa is good to you this Xmas.

This place rocks.... and thank you all very much whom have taken the time to put down in black and white some very simple but very important stuff. I grew up doing lots of major hiking, canoe trips things of that sort as a child. I would head into the woods for a week at a time a few times a year. This however all came to an end around 13-14 years old for me and i never really learned much at the time as someone else always made sure i was safe and sound. I remember much of this info now that i am reminded but def could not remember exactly what goes in a basic survival,emergency kit. I had put together one but it was very very primitive and mostly a fail proof way to start a fire.. some rope a knife, and some tape and gauze. I will make a list today and get this stuff mentioned together asap as it is all simple stuff and i can find it all around the house in about an hours time. Also i will get all those books asap!!

I think i will go with the WM Versalite bag and some kinda light pad and a space blanket. How warm will i be able to go with this bag being rated for 10% F? I wanna get a bag as i will feel much safer. I am confident in my ability to build a shelter and fire... I am quite the handy type and have been a builder/carpenter all my life.. to add to it i am very creative and have a nack for making things outa nothing. With a bag i want something that will not be a pain to carry "nice and light:" but something that will be good for one of two things.... winter camping.... fall and spring camping and a winter emergency. What temp bag do you think will be best?

I think a sleeping bag is an essential survival item for the daytrips you do, as well as shelter.

I'd get a 0F bag, especially if you intend to use it for winter overnights eventually. You could probably take that down to -10 or -20 with plenty of extra insulation and a good pad. Bags rated at 0F generally have a "survival rating" of around -35F, meaning you'll be able to get some limited cold sleep without going hypothermic. The ratings all assume you have ground insulation around R-5. Unless you'll always have access to natural ground insulation such as evergreen boughs, grass, and leaves, you really need to carry ground insulation too. I'd recommend the full-length Exped Downmat 7 at 2 lbs because of the importance of durability (a leak = no insulation at all).

So much freekin shiiiizzah you need to go winter hiking/climbing/camping!! Other than the down coat i have everything clothing wise i need after a few months of buying week in and week out i even got crampons, mind you i started with nothing 2-3 months ago!!! Now that i have what i need to just get out and play i need to add stuff like Plb, bag, Tent, snowshoes, stove, cookware, bottles blah blah blah to be safe and just round it all out. All this stuff is cool and all but dahm the $$$$ is nutts!!!! I would like to say i enjoy buying all this gear but in reality i cant wait till i just need to replace one thing a year as i wore it something out.

Its sort of a generic day pack list with enough gear that you could survive a night if you had to.

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B7T1lVGeXD9EZGJmZTUxNzUtYzFhMC00MzVlLTk0YzQtNWQ4MDk1YTQ4NGEy&hl=en

Sort of a very minimal gear base weight, 4# summer, 8# fall spg, 9.5# moderate winter. Its got barely enough utility gear, knife, saw, cordage, that you could build a debris shelter of some sort if you had to, build a fire, boil water
etc.

In the conditions you are in a better pad makes sense or just add a good CF pad to whatever you have especially since you can sit on it without having to blow it up.

You will have more winter gear on you than what I am showing especially in the snow, shovel maybe, crampons, more clothing, more bag, gaitors, wp mitts, maybe waterproof sock liners, snowshoes, more ground pad etc etc etc but still I think of it more of a survival situation than sleeping outdoors overnight and you can still do it SUL.

I am not sold on a tent for a day pack though as long as you have a bivy sack and some sort of tarp.

This list is dependent on being able to build a fire too, so no stove etc so I do not skimp on the fire gear and skills are needed especially in wet weather, snow or rain.
You also have to be below the tree line and able to get around to gather wood.

For winter snow where you have to melt snow to make water, a good stove makes a lot of sense.

As far as bags/quilts since someone else is paying I would probably get a nanatuk arc 5dF quilt at 26 oz. If you want a bag I would say a WM antelope 5df at 40oz.

Basically you weigh the value of comfort in a situation where you might get stuck once in a blue moon, against the weight of what you want to lug around.

For me I don't want to lug around a ton of extra weight, just in case I sprain an ankle, so I can be extra comfy for just one night.

A spot makes a lot of sense too in severe winter conditions.

Edited by tammons on 12/05/2010 11:31:50 MST.

Yeah, I would recommend a 0F bag, too. It is rare to see much below -30 in the ADK's. Make sure the bag is a little bigger for girth so you can wear a couple layers inside, if needed. This will add 10-20F to the temp comfortably.

Also, a long bag is nice for putting damp stuff, water, etc into it to keep it from freezing. (A warmed water bottle makes a nice foot warmer.) Good shelter and a fire should hold should you if end up stuck out. Snow makes an excelent insulator.

A pad is really needed. Forest duff is often frozen in clumps, wet when it gets warm from body heat. Pine boughs are good in an emergency.
My thoughts only . . .
jdm