Titanium tubes
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Henk Smees
(theflyingdutchman) - MLife

Locale: Spanish Mountains
Titanium tubes on 11/19/2010 12:00:34 MST Print View

I'm in the middle of making a new pack (external frame) and I want to use ti tubes for the stays - these will have double use as tent poles. Anyone knows where to buy these tubes? Thanks.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Titanium tubes on 11/19/2010 12:17:36 MST Print View

McMaster-Carr.

Chris Lucas
(ChemE) - F

Locale: SC
Titanium Joe on 11/19/2010 12:24:05 MST Print View

Titanium Joe

Henk Smees
(theflyingdutchman) - MLife

Locale: Spanish Mountains
Titanium tubes on 11/19/2010 15:19:41 MST Print View

Thank you (both Greg and Chris) – I’ll contact them. One thing I forgot to mention is that I live in Europe (Spain to be exact), sorry guys. Having said so...... with present exchange rates, it might be cheaper to buy in the USA, providing McMaster-Carr and/or Titanium Joe ship to Europe.
Another question: I have never worked with titanium and have no idea about its strength; the only thing I learned is that titanium has about the same weight as aluminum, but is a lot stronger and therefore can get away with thinner tubes for the same strength. That’s the reason -if I’m not mistaken- why it’s considered to be “lighter”.
On next pictures you’ll see the prototype of my TFD pack 1.0, made with materials I had readily available at home. It’s really comfortable and I’m happy with its behavior, but it’s too heavy (nearly 3 lbs as on the pics and 1.8 lbs in its lightest version – it has evolved a little since I first made it), that’s why I want to make a new version which should be around 1 lbs.
My question is: Since I’ve never worked with titanium, what kind of ti do you think I should use for my stays if the max. load will be about 40 lbs (base weight + consumables for 10 to 12 days max.).
Many thanks – once again.

TFD pack and GoLite Lair 1

Back panel of TFD pack 1.0

Edited by theflyingdutchman on 11/19/2010 15:22:50 MST.

Steven Evans
(Steve_Evans) - MLife

Locale: Canada
Re: Titanium tubes on 11/19/2010 15:57:45 MST Print View

I think Titanium Joe has a $100 minimum, or he did a while back, it may have changed though. Try E-bay aswell. You can usually score some good deals.

As for weight, titanium is roughly 60% heavier than aluminum but depending on the grade can be several times stronger and much harder.

Your typical workhouse Ti is 6AL-4V but if you are after tubes, you'll need to get 3Al-2.5V as they don't make it in 6AL-4V, or I've never seen it/looked for it. It's a little bit weaker so maybe compare the numbers (just google the two materials and look at their specifications) and see how much weight you are actually saving over aluminum.

I'm not sure if you were planning to bend the tubes or not, if you aren't, I would think about looking into carbon fiber. You could probably use arrow shafts or something depending on how much support you needed and they would be even lighter.

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Titanium on 11/19/2010 15:59:44 MST Print View

I think Titanium is a great metal for certain applications but I think you would be better off using a 7075-T6 Aluminum due to the cost of Titanium and how hard it is to find tubing in a thin wall.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Titanium tubes on 11/19/2010 16:23:49 MST Print View

Titanium has a density of 4.5 g/cc. Aluminium has a density of about 2.71 g/cc.

Titanium is much stronger, but I question whether you need it. My pack frames use Easton arrow shafts and are quite strong enough. I do not need Ti.

Titanium Joe is MUCH cheaper than McMaster Carr, and he will ship international. Give him my compliments if you order from him.

Cheers

Henk Smees
(theflyingdutchman) - MLife

Locale: Spanish Mountains
Carbon - aluminum - titanium on 11/19/2010 16:42:48 MST Print View

Hi Steven & Lawson.

The stays I’ve used in my prototype (as said before, made with materials I had at home) are actually made of a ti/al alloy; they’re part of my Komperdell Titanal trekking poles (middle and bottom section). I said before that my stays will have double use (as stays for pack and poles for tent); in reality the stays I use at this moment have triple use: the ones mentioned before and as substitute for my poles if some section breaks. The main problem is the weight of these: 242 grams (≈8,5 oz.) and I think I can do better. I’ve thought about using only the bottom section of the poles (and could change the design for my new Cuben Fiber fly accordingly), but this section would be too short for my pack stays.

I haven’t bent the stays in my prototype so carbon fiber would do as well, but then I’m back to square one (don’t know where to buy this).

> You could probably use arrow shafts or something depending on how much support you needed and they would be even lighter.
Where can I find these?

BTW: Just received an E-mail from McMasterCarr. Jeremy was very polite but said: “Due to the ever-increasing complexity of U.S. Export regulations, McMaster-Carr has decided to only accept orders from a few, long-established customers of ours overseas. We will not provide a quote nor will we accept your orders. We regret any inconvenience this causes you.” So this door has been closed.

@Roger. Many thanks for jumping in. I don’t know whether I need titanium (just thought it was better and stronger, and therefore lighter). If you all think I can do with 7075 Al, I’ll go with that. I might even have some of that at home (poles from an old Walrus tent). If not, I’ll have to buy. Once again – Where?

Chris Lucas
(ChemE) - F

Locale: SC
Re: Carbon - aluminum - titanium on 11/19/2010 17:27:17 MST Print View

I haven’t bent the stays in my prototype so carbon fiber would do as well, but then I’m back to square one (don’t know where to buy this).

Why then just ask! We gear geeks always know where to buy crazy stuff!

Fibraplex Carbon Tent Poles

Henk Smees
(theflyingdutchman) - MLife

Locale: Spanish Mountains
Fibraplex on 11/19/2010 18:01:47 MST Print View

Thanks Chris (I had no dooubt somebody would come up with a solution :),

Just sent an E-mail to Fibraplex; let’s see what they’ll answer (hope it’ll work out better then McMaster-Carr).

Javan Dempsey
(jdempsey)

Locale: The-Stateless-Society
Re: Fibraplex on 11/19/2010 19:13:23 MST Print View

Before buying fibraplex, who's poles seem to evoke some pretty polarized opinions here on the forums, consider Titanium Goat, who've been making CF stuff for years, and are well regarded amongst the community, as one of the integral cottage gear companies . Not that anybody has reviewed their CF tent poles yet, they just started offering them, but it's worth considering.

They also have a pole bender for the Aluminum rods, so if you sweet talk Josh, he may be willing to bend you some if it's that's something you need.


FWIW I've got a business relationship and friendship with TiGoat, so I'll mention that as a disclaim.

http://www.titaniumgoat.com/tentpole.html

Edited by jdempsey on 11/19/2010 19:14:19 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Carbon - aluminum - titanium on 11/19/2010 19:52:18 MST Print View

> Due to the ever-increasing complexity of U.S. Export regulations, ...
Translation: we can't be bothered doing the international postage thing.
'Export regulations' has to be a laugh anyhow: where do you think a lot of America's titanium comes from? (Try Russia.)

> The stays I’ve used in my prototype ... are actually made of a ti/al alloy;
> they’re part of my Komperdell Titanal trekking poles
Great marketing spin, but what you are talking about is simply aluminium alloy. Oh, there might (or might not) be 1% titanium in the alloy - so what? Yeah, fraudulent marketing again.

> Where can I find these? (Easton arrow shafts)
Try any archery shop. Use the phone book. Easton make a HUGE range of sizes for arrows, and it is EXACTLY the same stuff as their tent poles.

Cheers

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
poles on 11/19/2010 20:54:11 MST Print View

Roger,
Should have mentioned this before; but Easton also has made some cheap arrow shafts for the mass market that crumple easier than a beer can. Can supply a sample with the Easton label on it, purchased at a US Walmart. Going to an archery shop, as you suggested, should provide access to their better quality tubing.
Sam F.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: poles on 11/20/2010 00:27:40 MST Print View

Hi Sam

> Easton also has made some cheap arrow shafts for the mass market that
> crumple easier than a beer can.
Blimey. Sold at Walmart eh? I guess they got a job lot from China and made some profit out of their name. Stupid idea in the long run.

Hum - I wonder whether the logo and source really was genuine Easton, or whether it was another Chinese look-alike? I have no idea, as I have never seen the Walmart things.

Mind you, keen archers would not be buying gear at Walmart, and Walmart shoppers probably would not know about real archery shops.

Cheers

Henk Smees
(theflyingdutchman) - MLife

Locale: Spanish Mountains
TiGoat - Easton arrow shafts on 11/20/2010 04:08:08 MST Print View

@ Javan
Thanks for mentioning TiGoat. I’ll send Josh an E-mail as well. BTW. Haven’t had an answer yet from Fibraplex. Might come after the weekend.

@ Roger
> Due to the ever-increasing complexity of U.S. Export regulations, ...
>> Translation: we can't be bothered doing the international postage thing......

I’m sure you’re right (thought the same when I read it) but didn’t want to be rude and “upset” our community. One never knows who reads this.

> The stays I’ve used in my prototype ... are actually made of a ti/al alloy; they’re part of my Komperdell Titanal trekking poles.
>> Great marketing spin....

These marketing guys sure know who to confuse/fool us (at least, me).

> Where can I find these? (Easton arrow shafts) –
>> Try any archery shop.

Many thanks.

Colin Krusor
(ckrusor)

Locale: Northwest US
tubing on 11/20/2010 16:31:18 MST Print View

I have bought 6Al-4V seamless titanium tubing from Titanium Joe, but I've never seen titanium tubing that is thin-walled enough for applications like tent poles. I would agree with the other posters who suggested looking into carbon or aluminum tent poles/arrow shafts. Also, some online kite shops sell good wrapped (not pultruded) carbon tubing in many sizes and a wide selection of elbows, endcaps, and other hardware.

Steven Evans
(Steve_Evans) - MLife

Locale: Canada
Re: tubing on 11/20/2010 18:02:10 MST Print View

I have bought 6Al-4V seamless titanium tubing from Titanium Joe

Just checked his website, he does indeed have 6AL-4V Tubes, they are welded and not in many sizes, but I stand corrected. My apologies.

Henk Smees
(theflyingdutchman) - MLife

Locale: Spanish Mountains
Aluminum arrows on 11/22/2010 02:58:12 MST Print View

Many thanks – all of you. After sending my last post I went to the only archery shop in town and bought two aluminum arrows. They’re about 30 inch long and the weight just over 1 oz. (each). It doesn’t state whether it’s Easton, but they seem sturdy enough (at least for the first testing – I can always dive deeper into this when needed). Once I cut them down to the desired length (≈ 21/22 inch) the weight should be around 22 grams (≈ 3/4 oz.); that should do.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
tubes on 11/22/2010 22:24:43 MST Print View

Roger,
Ah-hum. Tested the "beer can" Easton Arrow shafts with my break test setup, and they did much better than I expected.
Mea Culpa.

Will send you an email.
Sam