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7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt
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Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 08/31/2006 21:15:55 MDT Print View

Bill-You and Brian were very polite to not rub it in that I had miscalculated the Polarguard Delta clo/oz value in an earlier thread… thank you for the education and the courtesy! You and Brian are both great assets on this forum.

Now for the controversial part <grin>.

Insulation clo/oz % loft when wet

Polarguard Delta .68 -40
Primaloft Sport .74 -11
Climashield XP .77 -??
Primaloft One .84 -00

500 fill down 4.5 -60
800 fill down 2.5 -60

Would you investigate a DIY source for Primaloft One? It would be the optimal solution for wet environments. Brian’s counterpart for Primaloft is Arnie Liati in the Primaloft Issaquah, WA office.

Would you let us know what quilt weight you could achieve using 800 fill down for your quilt? It is available from multiple sources and has a much better clo/oz value for dry environments.

My experience with synthetic bags is that I get about a 40% reduction in loft after one season’s use and then they stabilize at that loft. The temperature rating drops and stabilizes accordingly. I haven’t experienced more than 10% degradation in my down bags after multiple years of use. No one on the BPL forums has ever compared the loft degradation history between various synthetics. Would you monitor the loft degradation with your quilt experiments?

From your conversations with the Polarguard folks do you know what the Climashield XP loft reduction is when wet?

You continue to amaze me at the way you think outside the box to innovate. This area is ripe for someone to shake it up with some new ideas.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 09/02/2006 08:44:03 MDT Print View

Hi Richard,

When the question of Clo?? first came up back in June with the thread (Climashield non-siliconized, polyester continuous filament insulation claims highest Clo/Kg

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/3230/index.html?skip_to_post=23718#23718 )

You were the only person that even tried to explain what it means and how we might use that term/information. Whatever the results of your effort it was your action at time that has gotten us to here. You provided me a lead that allowed me to find and talk to Brian at Western Nonwovens.

So where are we now:
- I/we-all should know a lot more about CLO and have a planning guide - of sorts - for synthetic insulation vs temperature ranges.
- I think we know a lot more about Climashield XP and Polarguard Delta.
- We can buy Climashield HL and XP and that there are a couple of new insulations coming in the Climashield line.
- We know that there is a good chance that Polarguard Delta may be available in small amounts in a few months.
- We have Brian at Western Nonwovens contributing his knowledge to our efforts.
- And others.

None of this would have happened without your input back in June.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 09/05/2006 00:03:10 MDT Print View

I funny thing happened on the way to my 7 oz Polarguard Delta Quilt.

Once I cut the Polarguard Delta to the shape of my Quilt I put it on my scale. My planned for weight was 3.69 ounces. My 1.94 sq yards of Polarguard Delta weighed 4.29 ounces. The center part of the insulation was thicker and looked like somewhere in the process it may have lifted some insulation from the layer above or below it when it was made. Beyond that I have no real idea. The good news is that if I use this piece of Delta my per square yard weight is 2.21 ounces. This times the Delta Clo of .68 gives me a number of 1.503 (inches or what ever). That would make the Quilt warmer than planned for by a small amount. If I was using Down in the Quilt and had a loft of 1.5" I would say it would be good somewhere between 40 and 50 degrees (F).

I spent the next several hours crunching the numbers. I even tried a smaller Quilt size. I made a full size cloth prototype. It was sized to come up only to my arm pits. It did that OK but I didn't think it would work for me.

In all my number crunching the only material I have that would still get me close to the 7 ounce mark was some of my light silk. Using 4.5 mm silk (0.57 oz per sq yard) for both the top and bottom I would be over 7 oz by a .5 to .75 of an ounce. That assumed no other surprises.

I finished the Quilt a little while ago. It weighs 7.65 ounces. Accounting for the extra 0.60 ounces of extra PG - Delta I should be happy. I will have a Quilt that will be warmer by a factor of 1.5 over 1.3. It fits me snug with the foot box closed. In my Hammock the foot box as well as the complete right side of the Quilt will be connected to the right side of the Hammock. I think the Quilt will be OK on the ground as a sleep on my back. I got in it to see how the fit was and began to get warm fast. It is 74 degrees in my bedroom.





I really learned a lot about sewing a Quilt. I think I over sewed much more than might have been necessary. I believe I could now make another Quilt from the same pattern and save some weight with less sewing. I should say sewing the Quilt differently.

I did design this Quilt so I can wear it and for a SUL Gear List for cool weather it should do double duty. I think the extra sewing for the head hole accounted for a little of the extra weight.

Weight Breakout:
PG-Delta - 4.29 oz
Silk for Shell and Liner - 2.22 0z
Other - 1.14 - oz

Current Total Weigh - 7.65 oz

Charles Strusz
(infochuck) - F
Can't resist on 09/05/2006 08:37:52 MDT Print View

I [sic] funny thing happened on the way to my 7 oz Polarguard Delta Quilt.


Bill, I'm going to try real hard not to say here, "not that funny considering your ridiculously small sample size". Dang. Too late. <grin>

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 09/05/2006 10:20:30 MDT Print View

Charles,
I don't disagree with you about the sample size but I only had a 5 yard piece of the PG-D and that is a little bulky to sit on my scale. I didn't want to fold or roll up a larger piece that small as I had never worked with this stuff before and it had been shipped without ever being vacuum packed. What I have learned is that the PG-D recovers fast from compression. This was my first Synthetic Insulation MYOG Project and like any "first time" I am really happy it is finished. The next ones will be much easier.

I have only worked with Down in the past and that was easy to figure the finial weight of.

When I make the next Quilt I will weigh all the necessary insulation first and see what it weighs. Then decide what to use as Shell and Liner material.

How do you suggest sampling the weight of a 60 yard roll?

Sam Haraldson
(sharalds) - MLife

Locale: Gallatin Range
Re: 7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 09/05/2006 12:30:35 MDT Print View

> How do you suggest sampling the weight of a 60 yard roll?

Bill, you could take it to the Post Office, weigh it on a package scale and then divide by 60.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 09/05/2006 12:46:01 MDT Print View

Hi Sam,
Thanks for you comment - now all I need is the 60 yard roll. Do you have any idea how big a 60 yard roll by 60" wide insulation might be?

Some better pictures:




Sam Haraldson
(sharalds) - MLife

Locale: Gallatin Range
7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 09/05/2006 19:42:48 MDT Print View

Bill maybe a truck stop weigh station would be a better bet.

It's hard to tell from the photos, Bill, but is the footbox comprised soley of the tie mechanism at the bottom or is that a piece of Velcro (or similar) about a foot up from the end as well?

Have you tested this in a draft yet? How about with your kilt/mat/party-ballon thingy? Are you going to be able to create a moderately-hermetic seal against the night air?

Looks great so far.

Edited by sharalds on 09/05/2006 19:44:08 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 09/05/2006 21:54:43 MDT Print View

Sam,

First let me say I really hate Velcro and "almost" never use it.

The foot box is connect with three pairs of hook like things. Then if you see the triangle looking things sewn into the side seams - they will connect to the ones on the other side of the Quilt and hold the Quilt more or less to a sleeping pad. In my case to my Kilt/CheerStic Air Pad "thingy" or what ever I happen to use. The Quilt will also be used in my Spreader Bar Hammock and the Hook things for the foot box will connect the foot end of the Quilt to the foot end of my Hammock. The side triangle things will connect also to the sides of my Hammock. I was going to work that out this afternoon in my backyard but we had a little rain.

I have a BMW Vapr Bivy Sack (Pertex Quantum) at about 6.5 ounces that I think I can put this all inside if I need to for "a moderately-hermetic seal against the night air". I haven't tried this yet and if I don't have enough room I will make my own bivy out of Cuben and Pertex Quantum. I will test this in my backyard and then again in Georgia next month to see how it works in cooler weather. I will take and post some pictures of this all together.

The end game here is a Sub 2-lb, Sub 3-lb, Sub 4-lb set of gear lists. Heavier when cooler - lighter when possible.

michael a blandina
(hairball) - F
Clo? on 09/06/2006 21:05:39 MDT Print View

Howdy, howdy Bill! I read this whole forum just now and, maybe coming from a 13hr PCT funding day, missed what exactly Clo is. I know that all of you guys posting are intense MYOG men and could help a recent turncloak out. I have made 6 total Ray-Way kits this summer and only weighed everything after it was finished b/c I knew it would be less than I carried on the AT. I have since purchased material from Thru-hiker and Seattle Fabrics and refer to the MYOG forums to get ideas from all those who go before me in that area. I sleep really cold and am planning on taking my WM Versalite 10deg on the PCT '07, but have made 2 quilts and would love to find a way to make something that would be lighter than my 2lb4oz 6'6" WM bag. Do any of you think that it's worth it?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Clo? on 09/06/2006 23:15:33 MDT Print View

Michael-R value, m2K/W, clo, and TOG are just different names for thermal resistance of a specific insulation thickness. See my earlier BPL forum posting http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/3230/index.html?skip_to_post=23752

joseph daluz
(jfdiberian) - F

Locale: Columbia River Gorge
Making of synthetic quilts on 09/21/2006 17:50:12 MDT Print View

I am about to make a synthetic quilt from materials I ordered from thru-hiker to the tune of over $100!!! 6 yards of climashield xp, 4 yards of momentum90. All of that material weighs 19oz, but of course I won't use all of it. I imagine an arc alpinist styled quilt that has a footbox and some pad-securing straps to it, that I can slip over my WM Pod 30 to augment its capabilities in the deep winter months, and use alone in the other three seasons.
(now that I think about it, 2.25" of Climashield would cover about the same temp range as the Pod 30 and would therefore be a piece of redundant gear...better make it a 1.5" thick quilt and save some weight.)
Anyway, my MYOG question is this: how did you finish the edges of your quilt? could you get the full thickness of the insulation to pass under the sewing machine?

Michael Davis
(mad777) - F

Locale: South Florida
Re: Making of synthetic quilts on 09/22/2006 08:05:02 MDT Print View

Joe,

I am a fledgling beginner but I learned a lot, including edge finishing, for this website ....
http://www.kickassquilts.com/MakeTOC.html

Good luck and keep us posted!

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 09/22/2006 09:10:10 MDT Print View

Joseph & Michael,

Michael, Thanks for posting that web site for Joseph.

I didn't do my Quilt quite like the web site does but the instructions seem to be clear enough.

I thought I had taken pictures that showed how I did my edges but didn't find any. When I do my next Quilt I will take more pictures. My method is a little easier or is easier for me.

David Wills
(willspower3) - F
Re: 7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 09/22/2006 21:23:11 MDT Print View

Hey Bill, I was wandering how well the quilt covers you with those widths?

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 11/02/2006 15:39:19 MST Print View

Richard,
A couple months ago you stated and / or asked the following:

===============
Richard stated:
"Now for the controversial part <grin>.

Insulation clo/oz % loft when wet

Polarguard Delta .68 -40
Primaloft Sport .74 -11
Climashield XP .77 -??
Primaloft One .84 -00

500 fill down 4.5 -60
800 fill down 2.5 -60

1. Q - Would you investigate a DIY source for Primaloft One? It would be the optimal solution for wet environments. Brian’s counterpart for Primaloft is Arnie Liati in the Primaloft Issaquah, WA office.

1. A - I could not find anyone that was retailing PL-One. I decided to call PrimaLoft and see what it takes to buy direct from them. I finally found a little time to call and ask. I filled out a form for them and asked about getting a sample of PL - One 1.8 ounce a sq yard insulation. I have had a 5 yard sample request approved and it should be shipped next week. I asked about buying some and pricing but was asked to wait till next week for that answer. They have a one roll (45 yards) minimum if they agree to sell to me. I will wait till I can make a few things with the sample and test them before I buy any if they agree to sell to me. The sample will be enough to make several items to test / compare with the other insulation I have. I will make a Quilt / Liner for my Bivy with some of the PL-1, 1.8 oz a sq yard material so I can do a direct comparison with my other Quilts / Lliners.

I want to do more with the Climashield Combat as I have been surprised (good surprise) with that insulation.


2. Q - Would you let us know what quilt weight you could achieve using 800 fill down for your quilt? It is available from multiple sources and has a much better clo/oz value for dry environments.

2. A - I did a little math to see what the answer to this might be but I need to work on it a little more. I need to figure out the sewing for sewn baffles. The way I have worked with Down in the past was with a removable baffle or side-in silk tube of Down. Doing it that way let me use the Down Tubes for other things but did add a little weight. I need to practice making the baffles a different way and when I work that out I can then weigh the material and add the Down weight for a "best guess" answer. It would seem that the Down Quilt / Liner has to be lighter by a bit. The difference might be an ounce or so over the current Quilts / Liners that weigh 6.5 to 7.5 ounces. The total weight for a Down Quilt same size, same Temp range (40 degrees F) might be as low as 6 ounces using my light silk as the shell and liner material.


3. Q - My experience with synthetic bags is that I get about a 40% reduction in loft after one season’s use and then they stabilize at that loft. The temperature rating drops and stabilizes accordingly. I haven’t experienced more than 10% degradation in my down bags after multiple years of use. No one on the BPL forums has ever compared the loft degradation history between various synthetics. Would you monitor the loft degradation with your quilt experiments?

3. A - I don't know how I will do this but I will try an watch what happens over time.

4. Q - From your conversations with the Polarguard folks do you know what the Climashield XP loft reduction is when wet?

4. A - The next time I have a chance to talk to someone like Brian I will ask about this and see what they say.

===========

J W
(jhaura) - F

Locale: www.Trailability.com
Quilt Dimensions on 11/12/2006 13:28:42 MST Print View

Bill, hello looks like you've been busy with upper body gear. How 'bout a mithril vest? I heard they are really light :)

I'm getting ready to make a silk/climashield quilt. I've measured my ARC Specialist/X quilt (down) and it measures much wider than your finished dimensions, 54" at the widest area (chest). The other dims are similar, but all around a couple inches more.

I'm trying to get as much info before I make a sample. I'm hoping you can give me some detail on how your quilt covers you. Does it wrap around enough to block drafts when near its lower temp limit?

I notice with my quilt if the edges are not tucked under me at least 3", I feel a cold spot/draft when pushing the quilt to its limit.

I'm much smaller than you at 5' 7", 155lbs. I have wide shoulders though, with a 48" girth.

I sleep with a nightlight torso pad which is placed inside my bivy and then myself and quilt go on top of that. When it gets cold I wrap the quilt around me and use the straps to cocoon myself in. The pad is still under me but not in the quilt wrap. This is the cold weather mode demonstrated on the Nunatak website. I have found this is true in practice providing the best air trap, draft control and thus warmth.

I used some tape on my quilt to get it down to your dims and it really did not seem to wrap around and under enough. I know this is a personal preference, but a cold draft is a draft it seems.

Maybe you are just letting it drap over you and not tucking it under?

Thanks for help, Jhaura

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Quilt Dimensions on 11/12/2006 22:41:42 MST Print View

Jhaura,

My quilts are made to be used inside my Bivy. This holds the edges of the quilt next to me or under me a few inches. I don't move much when I sleep and sleep most of the time on my back.

I am taller than you as I am 6' tall but my current weight is only about 145. I measured around my shoulders and came up with 47". This really isn't much of a difference between you and I except for the height.

When it is cold I use my Down Air Mattress (DAM) inside a Bivy. I haven't tried my new Bivy with the DAM inside it other than to see if it would fit. It fits fine.

mark henley
(flash582) - F
A Bill F. style quilt - on the way to Sub 3 on 01/21/2007 15:30:46 MST Print View

Well, don't ever let anyone say I'm not true to my word ...

I took my old 40 degree Ray Way quilt and began the modification process to a "Forshell" style quilt.

I increased the girth by 8 inches on the top, but left the bottom per your model. I have wide shoulders, so I wanted to have the equivilant of a 66 inch girth bag once the quilt was attached to a pad.

I cut the head hole and am working on the closure now. I'm torn between no snag velcro and a button closure.

The quilt is made from two layers of .75 3D and 1.1 ounce light ripstop and the weight of the quilt so far is right around 16 oz. The quilt is plenty big enough for use in a Bivy, but I'm also working on the pad attachement system. I didn't care for the method of stringing lines and cordlocks under the pad .... it's just too cumbersome.

I realize that it's way too much insulation to hike in, however, my Micropuff pullover is too much to hike in also. It should be nice to hang out in camp after dark and on chilly mornings however.

I'll post a few pictures once I finish quilting it.

Thanks for the great design and encouragement Bill!

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt on 01/21/2007 18:06:39 MST Print View

Mark,
Glad to hear you are trying a quilt that you can also wear. Buttons might be lighter than velcro. I am going to make another one to improve a couple of things. I will make the collar a little bigger and I will use Pertex Quantum instead of silk. This may add a bit of weight but that is OK. It will work better in a little rain.

You are correct to make sure your quilt fits you. I am a little lucky as I am 6' tall but only weight 150.

It was fun hearing Glen on his PodCast talk about being so tall and hiking with Ryan. Everything Glen wears has to be bigger than what Ryan would wear so his gear almost has to be heavier. I am sure Glen pulls a surprise on Ryan once in a while.

I was wearing my Tunic/Quilt around the house last week when the ice storm caused a power outage. My power was off for 20.5 hours back on for about an hour and then back off for 4 more hours. The Tunic / Quilt was just right.