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Brad Groves
(4quietwoods) - MLife

Locale: Michigan
Re: New sleeping bag on 11/08/2010 14:25:00 MST Print View

I'd go Summerlite (no surprise to many). Fully baffled & able to shift the down, which I do occasionally find myself doing. I also really like the fact that it's a full-length zip; most UL bags are half-zips, & you just can't vent them as well in warmer weather.

The Feathered F. Merlin or Osprey could be good bets; they're spec'd with more fill than a Summerlite for roughly the same cut; they do weigh 4-6 oz more, but theoretically that should just be down weight. Playing with some Ospreys in the shop a while ago I felt that there were some more thin spots than I found in Summerlites/etc, but I could have just had a wonky batch.

Josh Newkirk
(Newkirk) - MLife

Locale: Australia
summerlite on 11/08/2010 14:48:36 MST Print View

why is the summerlite so good?
is it a lot better then montbell or other brands and if so in which ways?
im not really against spending that sort of money, i was just wondering, because on face value the montbell ul spiral down 3 looks very similar to the summerlite.

Aaron Reichow
(areichow)

Locale: Northern Minnesota
Re: summerlite on 11/09/2010 09:12:55 MST Print View

Personally, I'd go with the Montbell UL Spiral or Super Spiral #3 or #5. My older UL Super Stretch #3 has kept me warm into the high 20s with nothing but a base layer and socks, so if I were in your position I may be considering the #5 to keep it on the warmer end of things. *shrug*

Something that may help you decide between the SummerLite or a Montbell Spiral is how much room you like in a bag. Like Mike W said- what are your priorities?

MB UL Spiral #3:
Inside Shoulder Girth: 61.4-73.7"
Inside Knee Girth: 49.2-59.1"
MB UL Super Spiral #3:
Inside Shoulder Girth: 57-81"
Inside Knee Girth: 47-67"
WM SummerLite
Shoulder: 59"
Hip: 51"

The hip measurement of the SummerLite can't be compared directly to the MB knee girth, but you can get pretty close by taking off an inch or three from the SummerLite's hip girth to get a comparable number for the MB bags at the knee.

IMHO, the Feathered Friends Merlin or Osprey seem like overkill for what you seem to be looking for- a light bag 30-40 degrees. Nice bags, but sounds like you already have the warmer end of 3+-season bags covered.

Brad Groves
(4quietwoods) - MLife

Locale: Michigan
Re: summerlite on 11/09/2010 10:34:47 MST Print View

Some specs to consider:

MB Super Spiral DH#3
650 fill- $200
12oz fill (9oz 850equiv.) - 1#15oz
Shoulder girth to 75"

MB UL Super Spiral DH#3
800 fill- $279
10oz fill (9.4oz 850equiv) - 1#5oz
Shoulder girth to 75"

WM Summerlite
850 fill- $315
9oz fill- 1#3oz
Shoulder girth to 59"

Short version: you have equivalent amounts of insulation in each of the three bags, but the two MB bags expand to 16" more shoulder girth. Lots more space to fill w/an equivalent amount of down = colder bag. WM is known for extremely conservative ratings; my experience w/MB is that the bags seem noticeably underfilled.

It seems that a $35 price difference for a lighter, warmer bag is quite reasonable.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
WM Megalite on 11/09/2010 10:44:26 MST Print View

I got the WM Megalite for:

1. it's width when fully unzipped and used as a quilt on warm nights

2. the extra girth to accomodate mid layer insulating clothing, like a light down jacket, to extend the bag's temp range down into the low teens.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
bags on 11/09/2010 11:27:00 MST Print View

just as a note that of all the bags being discussed only the WM has an en-rating which ive already posted ...

does it matter? ... that depends on how much vulcan there is in yr blood ;)

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: summerlite on 11/09/2010 11:30:44 MST Print View

The information that Eric posted didn't show a conservative rating for the WM Summerlite. It showed a vendor Comfort rating of 32F and the EN 13537 test rating of 35.6F.

Brad Groves
(4quietwoods) - MLife

Locale: Michigan
Re: Re: Re: summerlite on 11/09/2010 13:13:18 MST Print View

It did show a difference of 3.6 degrees. However, most people who have used a variety of bags, including Western, have found that the WM bags are closest to their ratings. Anecdotally, my Antelope (5*F) keeps me warm below 0*F, my Summerlite keeps me warm a little under freezing, & my Mitylite right to 40. But anecdote is not science!

When it gets down to it (sorry, pun intended), if you have one bag with 70" girth and another with 59" girth... and both have the same amount of insulation in them, then the wider bag inherently can not be as warm as the narrower one. You're trying to use the same amount of insulation to fill much more area, which will lead to less loft.

I would be interested in seeing EN ratings for the MB bags, non stretched & stretched. I would be surprised if they were as close to their rating as the Summerlite.

Aaron Reichow
(areichow)

Locale: Northern Minnesota
Re: Re: Re: Re: summerlite on 11/09/2010 16:55:22 MST Print View

Not buying it. If you fit inside a the 59" girth of the SummerLite, the down won't be spread more thinly when using the Montbell bags. Unless you decide to sprawl out uncontrollably [*] just because you can. :)

If we opt to toss out anecdote and stick to science, the Montbell #3s will be just as warm or warmer as the SummerLite for anyone who uses up to 59" of shoulder girth; anyone who needs more will likely be warmer in the Montbell #3s because of compressed and/or shifted down. The SummerLite's differential cut allows some wiggle room in where the bifurcation point between MB ~= WM and MB > WM, but it doesn't make a difference whether it's 59" or 62".

The MB bags would both be warmer than the SummerLite for anyone with a shoulder girth below 59", as the shoulder girth starts at 56.7" and 53" for the Spiral and Super Spiral respectively.

Science is often driven by anecdotal experience, if not strictly supported by it. One area we haven't looked at is shell fabric in varying conditions. Fabrics used on the SummerLite may or may not support the warmth of the bag more or less than the Montbell bags. I wouldn't even know where to start with that one, if indeed the advantage went to one or the other.

I merged and corrected our specs:

MB UL Spiral #3 - $249
Weight: 19 oz
Fill: 9.4oz @ 850 equiv
Shoulder: 56.7-68"
Knee: 45.7-54.9"

MB UL Super Spiral #3 - $279
Weight: 21 oz
Fill: 9.4oz @ 850 equiv
Shoulder: 53-75"
Knee: 44-62"

WM SummerLite - $315
Weight: 19 oz
Fill: 9 oz @ 850
Shoulder: 59"
Hip: 51"




* Yeah, this wouldn't work well in 30 degrees:
http://www.moontrail.com/details/montbell/down-hugger-3/dh3-ss-illustr.jpg

(how do you post a photo? this is the image I mean- click here.)

:D

Edited by areichow on 11/09/2010 16:56:48 MST.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: summerlite & Thank You Eric on 11/09/2010 17:23:52 MST Print View

Identical 3 season bags, one filled with 800 fill and the other 850 fill lab test with an average 2.1% clo difference. How was a down equivalence value of 9.40 calculated versus?

10 * (1 - .021) = 9.79?

Eric - Thanks for the WM EIN 13537 ratings... great information find in combination with skillful use of translation.

Edited by richard295 on 11/09/2010 17:31:06 MST.

Aaron Reichow
(areichow)

Locale: Northern Minnesota
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: summerlite & Thank You Eric on 11/09/2010 17:39:18 MST Print View

Richard - I think he arrived at 9.40 oz by doing:

10 * (800 / 850) = 9.41

Or, keeping units:

10 oz/800 fill * (800 fill / 850 fill) = 9.41 oz/850 fill

Wasn't my error this time around, but I've done the same thing before when comparing bags myself. Hell, I've a spreadsheet full of sleeping bags I was considering at one point with down standardized 800 fill calculated that way.

But I've seen the light! Do you have any more info on this? I've seen some of your other threads dealing with relative warmth of different insulators, so perhaps I should look at those before asking. Thanks Richard!

Brad Groves
(4quietwoods) - MLife

Locale: Michigan
Concepts on 11/09/2010 17:50:16 MST Print View

I was communicating a concept and using those easily calculated figures as points of illustration... I can't say that in the course of presenting an idea I'm too distraught over being 0.39oz off in calculation.

The broader picture was that if people pitch the MB bags as great because they can stretch so much, it makes sense objectively to rate the bags as stretched out. There is no argument that the same amount of down in a larger space will not be as warm, given that shell fabrics/liners are roughly equivalent

I did indeed do 800/850... I was getting an idea of the amount of down used, not the clo of the material... just how much was used. Not being an engineer, or mathemetician, or having access to a lab I think my figures were quite close enough for illustrative purposes.

Geez, guys, I'm trying to be objective, not bicker over MB/WM!

To the OP, I reckon you can take this all as either would be good enough!

Edited by 4quietwoods on 11/09/2010 17:51:07 MST.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
en on 11/09/2010 19:06:53 MST Print View

one thing that was likely not tested in the en-rating was that you could move down to the top of a lot of WM bags ... at least i dont know if they test the bag in such conditions

there are other bags that meet the criteria of the OP, notably by marmot, MH and others that do publish their en ratings

its interesting that the MH phatom 45 with LESS down than the summerlite has a higher en-rating or 0C/32F

i understand that there can be a few % variance between different labs ... but thats quite the difference between a 45F bag and a 32F one

all the reviews seem to indicate that the phantom 45 runs very warm ... i think ill take the test at face value and get myself one of those for $185

http://www.mountainhardwear.com/Phantomâ„¢-45-%28Regular%29/OU8442_R,default,pd.html

Edited by bearbreeder on 11/09/2010 19:46:30 MST.

Aaron Reichow
(areichow)

Locale: Northern Minnesota
Re: Concepts on 11/09/2010 21:12:27 MST Print View

I don't think anyone was intending to bicker- just having a debate in the spirit of objectivity. Like a lot of folks, I like to talk about gear and get down to the nitty gritty. Unless someone brings up something personal or gets rude, there's no reason to get offended when someone disagrees with you. If someone makes a claim that doesn't make sense, I enjoy challenging it. I also enjoy when someone challenges my own assumptions, like Richard did with the numbers we had been using to compare 800 and 850 fill down.

I like learning about that sort of stuff. A lot of other people here do too. I can't speak for Richard, but I don't think he was trying to undermine your argument or mine- he was just sharing the real world facts.

Objectively, it does not make sense to rate all MB bags at their most stretched out. You're right in saying that "there is no argument that the same amount of down in a larger space will not be as warm, given that shell fabrics/liners are roughly equivalent." I'd wager that very few users of MB bags are large enough to fully stretch their bag out in every direction, making it unreasonable to assume that when comparing relative warmth. We may as well assume that the full length zipper is completely open when rating the SummerLite.

If he is someone who wanted or needed the extra room in a bag, the SummerLite would be a poor choice regardless of how warm it is. That's why I brought it up in the my 9:12 AM post- it'd make sense for the OP to elaborate a bit on what he wants or needs in a bag other than a 30-40 degree temp rating especially before investing too much thought into this discussion. Perhaps after hearing what he has to say this'll turn into someone else's WM MegaLite vs MH Phantom 45 debate. :)

Josh Newkirk
(Newkirk) - MLife

Locale: Australia
bag on 11/09/2010 21:20:09 MST Print View

I just want a light bag, around this pound mark if possible. I will be using it in the PNW so if anyone thinks that going down would be crazy, it would be sweet if you could say something.

Im 5'9, 200 if that effects the choices very much

Andy F
(AndyF) - M
Re: New sleeping bag: MontBell #3 on 11/09/2010 21:37:08 MST Print View

Just a quick note on prices. I purchased a Super Spiral #3 (800 down) late last week for $236. The lowest prices I found for their 800 down #3 models are:

MB Spiral #3 $210
MB Super Spiral #3 $236

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Bag on 11/09/2010 21:49:31 MST Print View

I doubt youd find a properly rated 32F synth bag at 1/2 pound ... Current technology doesnt seem to allow it ... Maybe a custom quilt

the closest would be the mh ultralamina which is tested to 43F and weights like 700g

if i had to buy a 32F syn bag id get the nf scorpio which weights 900g but is en tested to 32F and costs 130$

for down personally ill prob get tge mh phantom 45 for 185 and call it a day

theres nothing wrong with a mb #3 or a wm summerlite ... As long as youre aware they may be more of a mid 30s bag ... The mb spiral is of course cheaper

Josh Newkirk
(Newkirk) - MLife

Locale: Australia
bag on 11/09/2010 22:03:57 MST Print View

what about the lafuma x600?

Aaron Reichow
(areichow)

Locale: Northern Minnesota
Re: Bag on 11/09/2010 22:46:05 MST Print View

What reason is there to assume that the MB #3 would be more of a mid-30s bag other than that it doesn't have a Mountain Hardwear logo on it? :D

Don't get me wrong- EN ratings are better than nothing. But I've seen enough questionable ratings to doubt that a WM bag with 9 oz of 850 fill down is significantly less warm than another bag with 7 oz of 800 fill down, assuming similar fabrics.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Sleeping bag ratings on 11/09/2010 22:55:46 MST Print View

There may be some flaws with EN testing but it does allow an objective baseline for comparison between EN tested bags. An EN tested bag at 30 degrees 'comfort' will be warmer than an EN tested bag at 35 degrees 'comfort.' Period.