I was wondering why Scarp two says it is not freestanding and why the wind protection is only rated a 4? I own this tent so I know it is free standing you just need the extra poles. It is a 4 season tent so I am wondering its weakness? Or is this rating based on the one pole summer setup?

Yes the weight and rating is based on the mesh inner, single pole version. I owned it too. (Bought, not received ;-)

The way I see it, there may be two different reasons for wanting a "double wall" tent. In muggy, buggy tropical areas (my native Florida) a tent like the Big Agnes Seedhouse allows one to get maximum ventilation by leaving off the fly and not get eaten alive by bugs.

In the White Mountains of New Hampshire (where I have a vacation home), two solid walls to help insulate from the cold of winter and exclude blowing snow is an argument for double walls.

So, as with all our gear, we have to ask ourselves, "How, where and under what conditions, am I going to use this."

I know you reviewed a bunch of tents, so asking you to review more sounds crazy. However, I can think of a few ways in which you could have easily done this. First, you could have dropped your 4 pound limit to 3 pounds. Or, you could include companies that actually give you the tent after you pay them (sorry Big Sky). Doing so would allow you to feature a lot more interesting options (like those offered from MLD, LightHeart Gear, and Alpinlite).

One of the things I really like about your website is that it allows me to find out about cottage gear makers -- folks that aren't listed in Backpacker. You did this earlier in the year, with your article about companies that won't be showing gear at OR (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/orsm2010_kickoff.html). This article, unfortunately, does not feature those type of companies (with the exception of TarpTent and maybe a couple others). I guess you could have specified that each tent in this group must include their own poles (which it does) but that seems like a strange stipulation for an ultralight publication.

AFAIK MLD, LightHeart, and Alpinlite don't offer double-wall tents.

The Tent Review was 10000000 times better than any other review that you would read from any other source...

This site continues to be the BEST source for BP info


Thanks !!!

>> AFAIK MLD, LightHeart, and Alpinlite don't offer double-wall tents.

Yes, I believe they do. For the most part, their double walled options are for one person, but they do have double walled combinations for two people:

MLD: Duo InnerNet and Duo Mid. "Duo Combined with the Silnylon DuoMid = 2 person FULLY double walled tent for 29oz" (from http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=127).

LightHeart: Duo. "A spacious hybrid (single/double wall) design" (from http://www.lightheartgear.com/LightHeart_Gear/Duo.html). Since they call it a hybrid, maybe it isn't double walled. Interestingly, they call their solo a double walled, so I would be curious as to the difference. Maybe their solo is double walled, but their duo isn't.

Alpinlite: Bug Shelter 2.0 with Terraform. "The Terraform tarp, available seperately, has been specially designed to work with this the Bug Shelter 2.0." from (http://www.alpinlitegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=50&zenid=b97ca17519065567e21567b3ee82e387). Despite the spelling errors, it looks like a double walled tent to me.

All three of these are designed to work together, as double walled tents (with the possible exception of the LightHeart offering, as noted). Oh, and I forgot another one (my apologies):

Hyperlite Mountain Gear -- ECHO II Ultralight Shelter System - http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com/products/shelters/echo-ii-ultralight-system.html

This is arguably the most integrated and high tech version out there. To be fair, some of these might not have been offered when the testing began. But I'm pretty sure MLD has made a double walled, two person tent for a while now.

Ross,

The LightHeart tents are single-wall with double-wall sections. The MLD, Alpinlite, and HMG are all designed as tarps first with optional bug shelters. They can be used in similar fashion to a double-wall tent but none are sold as such.

I have used offerings from all 4 and even have a custom Echo II. They're all great options but not marketed as double-wall tents like everything else in the report.

Chris, MLD, Alpinlite and SMD certainly do offer true double wall tents. The only difference between them and the big companies is that they sell the outer fly (or pyramid in the case of MLD) and inner net tent separately, for those who may want only one of the components. They do state on their websites that the combination makes a full double-wall tent! Is there something wrong with that policy that prevents the two components together from being true double-wall tents? They are a lot more than just tarps with a bugnet underneath; the outer fly is fully enclosed with a zippered door and the bugnets have bathtub floors.

The Lightheart Duo is advertised as a double-wall tent, and as far as I can tell from the pictures, looks like one.

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/03/2010 19:34:52 MDT.

There's nothing wrong with using any of them as double-wall tents, but they aren't marketed as such.

I've had the LH Duo and it's not fully double-wall.

The MLD, Alpinlite, and HMG, and SMD offerings are all sold as shaped tarps. The MLD and SMD are fully enclosed for the most part, but the HMG and Alpinlite are 3-sided.

There is an obvious trend with the UL manufacturers toward designing hybrid tarp shelters. I will suggest to the publishing team that there be a new category and SOTM report for them.

The LightHeart is spacious, but not like their Solo where the walls roll all the way up for 360 degree views.

I had one of the first Duo Mids and found it tight without the inner so I don't see how it could fit two very well with the inner.

I personally love the HMG and believe there's a review of it in the works.

I have no experience with the SMD or Alpinlite tarps although I did have one of the first Alpinlite bug shelters and found Gen's quality as good as anyone else.

Edited by simplespirit on 11/03/2010 19:48:43 MDT.

There's nothing wrong with using any of them as double-wall tents, but they aren't marketed as such."

Per the MLD website: "ALSO SEE THE DUOMID INNERNET netting insert - Turns the DuoMid into a super light sub 2lb - two person fully double walled tent." http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=105

"Duo Combined with the Silnylon DuoMid = 2 person FULLY double walled tent for 29oz" http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=127

Per the SMD website, an even stronger statement: "The Haven Tarp is designed to be mated with the Haven NetTent. Together they form a luxurious sized double wall shelter at a mere 36 ounces (1 k)." http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/tarps.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_smd.tpl&product_id=45&category_id=8

I would call that marketing them to be sold together, even though the components are listed separately!

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/03/2010 19:50:28 MDT.

I read that as them offering the option, not selling them as double-wall tents. I suppose it's open to interpretation though, where something like a Hubba Hubba is sold strictly as a double-wall tent.

Another possibility is that the various manufacturers weren't willing to offer up their shelters for the review/report.

Edited by simplespirit on 11/03/2010 19:55:46 MDT.

How about non-trekking polled supported double walled tents as a qualifier for this report? That is, only double walled tents with dedicated tent poles as part of the geometry. That would omit the tarp hybrids mentioned.

Problem is that all the manufacturers of tents that use trekking poles also offer regular poles with their tents. Again, it gives the customer the flexibility to use or not to use....

You appear to be saying that something where the components are sold separately can't be a double-walled tent, even though it meets all the other criteria according to the article.

I'm not saying that I agree with all the article's criteria, but if we are going to accept those, these tents meet all of them!

I suspect that most of the "cottage" manufacturers work on too narrow a profit margin to be able to offer free items for evaluation. That is unfortunate, especially in the segment of the backpacking gear market represented by members of this site, which patronizes and encourages those same small businessmen! I'm not sure there's a solution for this problem!

Edit, later: Could the cottage manufacturers at least be mentioned in SOM reports, that they offer viable options even though they were not able to offer items for evaluation? At least people would know that such items exist outside of the major corporations and REI! I'm just throwing this out as an idea for discussion!

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/03/2010 21:03:46 MDT.

>> They're all great options but not marketed as double-wall tents like everything else in the report.

Huh? I took the time to copy and paste sentences from each website (as well as a link the site, so you could read it yourself). In all four cases, the tent maker said that it was a double walled tent. That is marketing. At least, that is as much marketing as you are going to get from these folks. Maybe you should talk to their marketing department -- you know, their VP of Marketing. Oops, their ain't one. Most of these are one person (or maybe family) run organizations. You are going to exclude good entries because their marketing isn't good enough? Seriously?

The fact that these companies offer each part of the puzzle separately is a bonus. The companies that do so shouldn't be excluded because of it. They should be rewarded.

I'm sorry if I'm hard on you folks here, but I'm disappointed. At some point next year, I want to buy a double walled tent. I want it to be light. I want it to be ultralight. All four of the options I mentioned fit that description. Many of the tents you just tested do not.

Again, maybe you'll pick those up when you do a single person tent. Or maybe you didn't include those because they weren't available when testing started. But to exclude them because of marketing sounds like a really, really bad idea.

Ray,

Thanks for the great review! One question though that you might be able to offer us some insight on since I assume you set up most, if not all of the tents. One criteria that is import to me is now easy a tent is to setup in windy and/or increment weather and night conditions. We've all been there some time or another and I couldn't help but notice from the pictures that some of the tents had funky asymmetric pole configurations. Can you give us any insight?

Thanks,

Russ Bogardus

Great detailed review Ray. We needed a comparo like this to really understand the pros & cons of each of the tents in this category.

I'd have liked to have seen a Hilleberg tent inclued but I guess their 2 person tents probably are not light enough for this article, even with their proprietary light fabric. Maybe it's the coating they use that makes them heavier.

BTW, I'm noticing the larger tent companies are finally discovering silnylon.

Edited by Danepacker on 11/04/2010 22:50:05 MDT.

"How about non-trekking polled supported double walled tents as a qualifier for this report? That is, only double walled tents with dedicated tent poles as part of the geometry. That would omit the tarp hybrids mentioned." (David)

Or how about "Double wall tents with dedicated poles and come all in one package you can grab at a retailer. no added optional extras. and can be found in a retailer where you can see it in person"(Yes I know Big sky isn't one and they have lots of different options for their tents but they always have a couple in magazines at gear guide time)

or what it seems like what everyone wants "here is a multi-year review of every tent on every website, someone has spent countless hours of their free time and money to review for people's insight and information, just to have them complain that there wasn't the tent they were looking at anyway"

Seriously Again with the complaints? These Reviews are of mass market products. They seem to be aimed at the products you can go grab at your local retailer. this lloks like it could help the massive influx of new members to this website. Most of the people looking at a MLD Cuben Duo Mid with a net insert are on there second or third sub 4lb shelter option, Meaning they have done tons of research on whats out there. Go through the Gspot fourm and on any given page there will be 2 or 3 threads of repeats of people asking advice on sleeping bags, and tents and down jackets for a a first time buyer of light weight gear. So yes it may not include what a cottage website says is double wall, but that gear isn't in your REI and there isn't usually a similar version of it in the store either. Any tent can be double wall if you word the description of it right.

"A GG Spintwin is a double walled tarp when compared to a lean-to tarp."

Great review Ray keep up the great reviews and putting your personal time in for the communities benefit.

Nice report. I think Ray did a good & fair job.

IMO, the SMD Haven is a double wall tent because it was designed as such. The MLD DuoMid + Inner probably is as well, although IIRC the DuoMid wasn't initially designed as such.

The HMG Echo II is debatable, but technically it is single wall at the foot end. You need to draw the line somewhere and if you start including hybrid tents (however small that single wall section may be) then you really open things up. For example, the TT Double Rainbow + Liner is pretty darn close to a double wall.

you simply cant review a lot of the cottage tents in a comparison here IMO ...

can you imagine the uproar if BPL rated tarptent, MLD, SMD, etc .... lower than tents available at REI

the HORROR !!!

everyone would be up in arms ... owners of such tents would cancel their memberships ... BPL staff would be fed to hungry starving bears ...

BPL is like any other forums ... everyone has their fanbois ...

not to mention i feel soo much more elite in my new cuben tent ... over the poor dino that has a silnylon tarp .. never mind the poor bum with a big box retailer tent ... lol

time for the abestos suit !!!