Companion forum thread to:

State of the Market Report: Two-Person Double-Wall Tents (2010)

Nice report Ray.

If anyone is interested, Big Agnes has on sale brown custom Seedhouse SL2 tents for sale (new) for 40% off. www.bigagnes.com under Specials.

Somehow the MSR Hubba Hubba HP was left off of the BPL Scoring Chart, despite being "the best shoulder season, non-extreme winter tent I've ever used".

Edited by wandering_bob on 11/02/2010 22:38:25 MDT.

Bob, I noticed that too. I guess the HubbaHubba HP must score a 6 on a chart that only goes to 5... kind of like amps that go to 11 ;)


Nice report Ray, thanks for the effort. It's good to see the mainstream slowly lightening things up. I've been pretty impressed by the MSR and Big Agnes tents I've seen lately.

Edited by JacobD on 11/03/2010 08:44:31 MDT.

Call me crazy, but I just don't consider mesh to be a "wall". To me these mesh inner tents are nothing more than than a tarp with a mesh inner tent.
That said, it is good to see a couple true double wall tents in the lineup.

Crazy,

It's a wall because you can't move through it, even if it is mesh. It will prevent you from touching the outer fly if wet from condensation. It can also be decent at blocking a little wind.

ha, I like that...

Thanks for catching that. I shot the missing row to Addie. But if you want to see it:

2, 4, 4.5, 4.5, 5, 5, Yes, 4.5, 3.5, 3.92, 4.4

Plus it looks like the Specs table is not linking, at least on my browser. We will look into it.

Ray

Edited by rayestrella on 11/03/2010 09:58:50 MDT.

I'm a little disappointed that several double walled options didn't make it. LightHeart Gear, Mountain Laurel Designs and Alpinlite all make tents that can fit two people and are double walled (a mesh inner and a rain fly). They are all much lighter than most of the tents listed here. Are you planning on doing a report on single person double walled tents? If so, then maybe you could include offerings from those companies. To be honest, most of the tents listed in this review are just too heavy for me.

Can you please list the weight of tent in the chart (not just a ranking). I think this would make it easier to get a quick summary of the tent. Thanks.

Ross,
Per Raymond (posted above) the Specs Table is not linking.

That (currently broken) Link

"Download a full specifications chart of all the tents here."

is found immediately after the photo gallery.


I agree, it is essential.

I think it should be included in the article.

Edited by greg23 on 11/03/2010 10:14:12 MDT.

I'm with Tim in that I don't think mesh should be considered true double wall. The whole point of the double wall is to keep moisture off you and your gear. I found this report to be interesting and useful, but it was not what I was hoping for when I saw your last week's newsletter promising this week's article.

I have a Stephenson's Warmlite 2R which is a true double wall less than 4 lbs, and they have a lighter version which is a little shorter. I'd like to see a comparison of true double walled tents.

Man, you can't win for losin' around here...

Some here say a tent with a mesh inner is not a true double wall. Others point out that a number of double wall tents with mesh inners have been left out. In the latter case, there are a lot of tents which are shaped tarps with mesh inners that have bathtub floors. Just because with some of these combos the fly and inner tent are sold separately, why would that disqualify them as double-wall? In addition to those already mentioned, I'd include the SMD Haven and the GoLite Shangri-La 2 with nest. These are just as much double-wall tents as those listed in the report--assuming, of course, that a net inner qualifies as the second wall!

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/03/2010 11:44:09 MDT.

"...assuming, of course, that a net inner qualifies as the second wall!"

The reviewer includes many tent bodies with "mostly mesh" walls.

Why didn't he include "XZY"? Maybe in Part Two another 26 tents can be highlighted. ;-)

Good work Raymond.
Thanks. Sincerely.

Edited by greg23 on 11/03/2010 12:39:42 MDT.

So are the crazy shipment problems from Big Sky fixed? Haven't heard anything about them for a while? Everybody give up?

"The whole point of the double wall is to keep moisture off you and your gear."

It does. In fact, droplets of condensation will likely not make it through the mesh as it is so fine. It also protects you and your gear because you don't bang the fly.

Shall we have a discussion on what constitutes truly freestanding? I'm in the mood.

Hey all - sorry about the specs table - the code was poorly written (by me). And Ray got me the spare line for the table, so other than the debate about all the tents we left out, things should be good!

Warmly,
Addie

I'm not taking a position, just pointing out that from either point of view there are problems! I am not a double wall tent fan! I'd rather have my condensation accessible where I can wipe it off!

While I like the idea of a tent to keep my dog confined at night (I know, he could go through the wall any time he wanted, but he doesn't know that!), I'm seriously considering a tarp. If I could find a two-person bug net that, with a tarp, would be significantly lighter than my GG Squall Classic, I'd switch now!

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/03/2010 12:39:29 MDT.

>

Actually the 2R and 2C are not true double wall tents. Only the center is double, the ends are single wall, and while fairly good at limiting condensation aren't perfect. Not as good as my other winter tent, from Hilleberg, which is a full double wall.

Agreed the Stephenson's tents are not fully double walled. They also don't stop condensation from dropping on you, or you brushing up against the condensation, so even in function they don't act like double walled tents (mesh or otherwise)

Curious the Haven wasn't reviewed. Oh well, so many tents, so little time and money!

I was wondering why Scarp two says it is not freestanding and why the wind protection is only rated a 4? I own this tent so I know it is free standing you just need the extra poles. It is a 4 season tent so I am wondering its weakness? Or is this rating based on the one pole summer setup?

Yes the weight and rating is based on the mesh inner, single pole version. I owned it too. (Bought, not received ;-)

The way I see it, there may be two different reasons for wanting a "double wall" tent. In muggy, buggy tropical areas (my native Florida) a tent like the Big Agnes Seedhouse allows one to get maximum ventilation by leaving off the fly and not get eaten alive by bugs.

In the White Mountains of New Hampshire (where I have a vacation home), two solid walls to help insulate from the cold of winter and exclude blowing snow is an argument for double walls.

So, as with all our gear, we have to ask ourselves, "How, where and under what conditions, am I going to use this."

I know you reviewed a bunch of tents, so asking you to review more sounds crazy. However, I can think of a few ways in which you could have easily done this. First, you could have dropped your 4 pound limit to 3 pounds. Or, you could include companies that actually give you the tent after you pay them (sorry Big Sky). Doing so would allow you to feature a lot more interesting options (like those offered from MLD, LightHeart Gear, and Alpinlite).

One of the things I really like about your website is that it allows me to find out about cottage gear makers -- folks that aren't listed in Backpacker. You did this earlier in the year, with your article about companies that won't be showing gear at OR (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/orsm2010_kickoff.html). This article, unfortunately, does not feature those type of companies (with the exception of TarpTent and maybe a couple others). I guess you could have specified that each tent in this group must include their own poles (which it does) but that seems like a strange stipulation for an ultralight publication.

AFAIK MLD, LightHeart, and Alpinlite don't offer double-wall tents.

The Tent Review was 10000000 times better than any other review that you would read from any other source...

This site continues to be the BEST source for BP info


Thanks !!!

>> AFAIK MLD, LightHeart, and Alpinlite don't offer double-wall tents.

Yes, I believe they do. For the most part, their double walled options are for one person, but they do have double walled combinations for two people:

MLD: Duo InnerNet and Duo Mid. "Duo Combined with the Silnylon DuoMid = 2 person FULLY double walled tent for 29oz" (from http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=127).

LightHeart: Duo. "A spacious hybrid (single/double wall) design" (from http://www.lightheartgear.com/LightHeart_Gear/Duo.html). Since they call it a hybrid, maybe it isn't double walled. Interestingly, they call their solo a double walled, so I would be curious as to the difference. Maybe their solo is double walled, but their duo isn't.

Alpinlite: Bug Shelter 2.0 with Terraform. "The Terraform tarp, available seperately, has been specially designed to work with this the Bug Shelter 2.0." from (http://www.alpinlitegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=50&zenid=b97ca17519065567e21567b3ee82e387). Despite the spelling errors, it looks like a double walled tent to me.

All three of these are designed to work together, as double walled tents (with the possible exception of the LightHeart offering, as noted). Oh, and I forgot another one (my apologies):

Hyperlite Mountain Gear -- ECHO II Ultralight Shelter System - http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com/products/shelters/echo-ii-ultralight-system.html

This is arguably the most integrated and high tech version out there. To be fair, some of these might not have been offered when the testing began. But I'm pretty sure MLD has made a double walled, two person tent for a while now.

Ross,

The LightHeart tents are single-wall with double-wall sections. The MLD, Alpinlite, and HMG are all designed as tarps first with optional bug shelters. They can be used in similar fashion to a double-wall tent but none are sold as such.

I have used offerings from all 4 and even have a custom Echo II. They're all great options but not marketed as double-wall tents like everything else in the report.

Chris, MLD, Alpinlite and SMD certainly do offer true double wall tents. The only difference between them and the big companies is that they sell the outer fly (or pyramid in the case of MLD) and inner net tent separately, for those who may want only one of the components. They do state on their websites that the combination makes a full double-wall tent! Is there something wrong with that policy that prevents the two components together from being true double-wall tents? They are a lot more than just tarps with a bugnet underneath; the outer fly is fully enclosed with a zippered door and the bugnets have bathtub floors.

The Lightheart Duo is advertised as a double-wall tent, and as far as I can tell from the pictures, looks like one.

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/03/2010 19:34:52 MDT.

There's nothing wrong with using any of them as double-wall tents, but they aren't marketed as such.

I've had the LH Duo and it's not fully double-wall.

The MLD, Alpinlite, and HMG, and SMD offerings are all sold as shaped tarps. The MLD and SMD are fully enclosed for the most part, but the HMG and Alpinlite are 3-sided.

There is an obvious trend with the UL manufacturers toward designing hybrid tarp shelters. I will suggest to the publishing team that there be a new category and SOTM report for them.

The LightHeart is spacious, but not like their Solo where the walls roll all the way up for 360 degree views.

I had one of the first Duo Mids and found it tight without the inner so I don't see how it could fit two very well with the inner.

I personally love the HMG and believe there's a review of it in the works.

I have no experience with the SMD or Alpinlite tarps although I did have one of the first Alpinlite bug shelters and found Gen's quality as good as anyone else.

Edited by simplespirit on 11/03/2010 19:48:43 MDT.

There's nothing wrong with using any of them as double-wall tents, but they aren't marketed as such."

Per the MLD website: "ALSO SEE THE DUOMID INNERNET netting insert - Turns the DuoMid into a super light sub 2lb - two person fully double walled tent." http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=105

"Duo Combined with the Silnylon DuoMid = 2 person FULLY double walled tent for 29oz" http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=127

Per the SMD website, an even stronger statement: "The Haven Tarp is designed to be mated with the Haven NetTent. Together they form a luxurious sized double wall shelter at a mere 36 ounces (1 k)." http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/tarps.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_smd.tpl&product_id=45&category_id=8

I would call that marketing them to be sold together, even though the components are listed separately!

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/03/2010 19:50:28 MDT.

I read that as them offering the option, not selling them as double-wall tents. I suppose it's open to interpretation though, where something like a Hubba Hubba is sold strictly as a double-wall tent.

Another possibility is that the various manufacturers weren't willing to offer up their shelters for the review/report.

Edited by simplespirit on 11/03/2010 19:55:46 MDT.

How about non-trekking polled supported double walled tents as a qualifier for this report? That is, only double walled tents with dedicated tent poles as part of the geometry. That would omit the tarp hybrids mentioned.

Problem is that all the manufacturers of tents that use trekking poles also offer regular poles with their tents. Again, it gives the customer the flexibility to use or not to use....

You appear to be saying that something where the components are sold separately can't be a double-walled tent, even though it meets all the other criteria according to the article.

I'm not saying that I agree with all the article's criteria, but if we are going to accept those, these tents meet all of them!

I suspect that most of the "cottage" manufacturers work on too narrow a profit margin to be able to offer free items for evaluation. That is unfortunate, especially in the segment of the backpacking gear market represented by members of this site, which patronizes and encourages those same small businessmen! I'm not sure there's a solution for this problem!

Edit, later: Could the cottage manufacturers at least be mentioned in SOM reports, that they offer viable options even though they were not able to offer items for evaluation? At least people would know that such items exist outside of the major corporations and REI! I'm just throwing this out as an idea for discussion!

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/03/2010 21:03:46 MDT.

>> They're all great options but not marketed as double-wall tents like everything else in the report.

Huh? I took the time to copy and paste sentences from each website (as well as a link the site, so you could read it yourself). In all four cases, the tent maker said that it was a double walled tent. That is marketing. At least, that is as much marketing as you are going to get from these folks. Maybe you should talk to their marketing department -- you know, their VP of Marketing. Oops, their ain't one. Most of these are one person (or maybe family) run organizations. You are going to exclude good entries because their marketing isn't good enough? Seriously?

The fact that these companies offer each part of the puzzle separately is a bonus. The companies that do so shouldn't be excluded because of it. They should be rewarded.

I'm sorry if I'm hard on you folks here, but I'm disappointed. At some point next year, I want to buy a double walled tent. I want it to be light. I want it to be ultralight. All four of the options I mentioned fit that description. Many of the tents you just tested do not.

Again, maybe you'll pick those up when you do a single person tent. Or maybe you didn't include those because they weren't available when testing started. But to exclude them because of marketing sounds like a really, really bad idea.

Ray,

Thanks for the great review! One question though that you might be able to offer us some insight on since I assume you set up most, if not all of the tents. One criteria that is import to me is now easy a tent is to setup in windy and/or increment weather and night conditions. We've all been there some time or another and I couldn't help but notice from the pictures that some of the tents had funky asymmetric pole configurations. Can you give us any insight?

Thanks,

Russ Bogardus

Great detailed review Ray. We needed a comparo like this to really understand the pros & cons of each of the tents in this category.

I'd have liked to have seen a Hilleberg tent inclued but I guess their 2 person tents probably are not light enough for this article, even with their proprietary light fabric. Maybe it's the coating they use that makes them heavier.

BTW, I'm noticing the larger tent companies are finally discovering silnylon.

Edited by Danepacker on 11/04/2010 22:50:05 MDT.

"How about non-trekking polled supported double walled tents as a qualifier for this report? That is, only double walled tents with dedicated tent poles as part of the geometry. That would omit the tarp hybrids mentioned." (David)

Or how about "Double wall tents with dedicated poles and come all in one package you can grab at a retailer. no added optional extras. and can be found in a retailer where you can see it in person"(Yes I know Big sky isn't one and they have lots of different options for their tents but they always have a couple in magazines at gear guide time)

or what it seems like what everyone wants "here is a multi-year review of every tent on every website, someone has spent countless hours of their free time and money to review for people's insight and information, just to have them complain that there wasn't the tent they were looking at anyway"

Seriously Again with the complaints? These Reviews are of mass market products. They seem to be aimed at the products you can go grab at your local retailer. this lloks like it could help the massive influx of new members to this website. Most of the people looking at a MLD Cuben Duo Mid with a net insert are on there second or third sub 4lb shelter option, Meaning they have done tons of research on whats out there. Go through the Gspot fourm and on any given page there will be 2 or 3 threads of repeats of people asking advice on sleeping bags, and tents and down jackets for a a first time buyer of light weight gear. So yes it may not include what a cottage website says is double wall, but that gear isn't in your REI and there isn't usually a similar version of it in the store either. Any tent can be double wall if you word the description of it right.

"A GG Spintwin is a double walled tarp when compared to a lean-to tarp."

Great review Ray keep up the great reviews and putting your personal time in for the communities benefit.

Nice report. I think Ray did a good & fair job.

IMO, the SMD Haven is a double wall tent because it was designed as such. The MLD DuoMid + Inner probably is as well, although IIRC the DuoMid wasn't initially designed as such.

The HMG Echo II is debatable, but technically it is single wall at the foot end. You need to draw the line somewhere and if you start including hybrid tents (however small that single wall section may be) then you really open things up. For example, the TT Double Rainbow + Liner is pretty darn close to a double wall.

you simply cant review a lot of the cottage tents in a comparison here IMO ...

can you imagine the uproar if BPL rated tarptent, MLD, SMD, etc .... lower than tents available at REI

the HORROR !!!

everyone would be up in arms ... owners of such tents would cancel their memberships ... BPL staff would be fed to hungry starving bears ...

BPL is like any other forums ... everyone has their fanbois ...

not to mention i feel soo much more elite in my new cuben tent ... over the poor dino that has a silnylon tarp .. never mind the poor bum with a big box retailer tent ... lol

time for the abestos suit !!!

looks like all us Canadians are on the same page... most of these tents will never be available for us in stores too..

as a side note this review is serious gold for big sky in marketing

big sky takes 1st, 2nd, 3rd place in the review ... not even the chinese ping pong olympic team does a full podium sweep like that .... lol

MSR takes 4th (very good for a mass retail tent), REI 6th(not bad for a big box retailer tent), Big agnes 5th and 7th (again good for a mass retail tent), tarptent 8th (the HORROR !!!)

BPL is known to be as impartial and objective a reviewer as there is out there ... no sponsorships, no advertising, no reviewing their own products


Rank Manufacturer / Model
1 Big Sky Intl Evolution 2P
2 Big Sky Intl Convertible 2P
3 Big Sky Intl Revolution 2P
4 MSR Hubba Hubba HP
5 Big Agnes Copper Spur UL2
6 REI Quarter Dome T2
7 Big Agnes Fly Creek SL2
8 Tarptent Scarp 2
9 Mountain Hardwear Skyledge 2
10 Sierra Designs Strike 2 LT
11 Big Sky Intl Montana 2P
12 Nemo Espri 2
13 Vaude Power Lizard
14 Sierra Designs Lightning XT 2
15 MSR Carbon Reflex 2
16 Terra Nova Voyager Superlite
17 Vaude Hogan Ultralight
18 Montbell Thunder Dome 2
19 Terra Nova Laser
20 Big Agnes Seedhouse SL2
21 The North Face Meso 22
22 Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight 2
23 Marmot Zonda
24 Big Agnes Seedhouse
25 LL Bean Microlight
26 Sierra Designs Vapor Light

edit: mistyped big agnes instead of big sky ... oooopsies daisies

Edited by bearbreeder on 11/04/2010 01:36:03 MDT.

>> as a side note this review is serious gold for big sky in marketing



Hmm... don't you have to be a paying BPL member to read the article? If so, no big benefit to them.

anyone whose halfway competent in marketing would ;)

"Thanks for the great review! One question though that you might be able to offer us some insight on since I assume you set up most, if not all of the tents. One criteria that is import to me is now easy a tent is to setup in windy and/or increment weather and night conditions. We've all been there some time or another and I couldn't help but notice from the pictures that some of the tents had funky asymmetric pole configurations. Can you give us any insight?"

Hey Russ,

Except for the tents reviewed by Will and one other, I set up and used every tent at least one night. (Those were media samples that had to go back.) But most of the funky-poled tents we did full reviews on. They are not bad once you get used to them. The "hardest" was probably the REI Quarterdome as it is just all one big pole, but I got it down pretty quick by the end of the two months I used that one. Feel free to email or pm me with any specific question about a tent that you are interested in.

Thanks for building that list. I never looked at the final order. I rated each as I finished with them which stretched out over 12 months. (This was supposed to be an 8 month ordeal, I mean project ;-) And remember most of those are based on me. You could rate them quite differently.

The Big Sky tents were reviewed and rated by Will with the exception being the Revolution that I rated as I was able to use my brother-in-law Dave’s for one night. (And which he just traded me for a Fly Creek 2, anybody want a Revolution with no wait?) After seeing what it took Dave (and the other two testers he was a part of) go through to get them delivered I was put into a negative frame of mind towards Big Sky that I had to put aside to remain impartial.

Right now I am testing the newest version of the Evolution 2P that was not received in time to make it into the SOTMR. I have to say that I am very impressed by the two Big Sky tents I have used. They are some of the most well designed tents I have seen. I want to get this one in some bad weather and then I will write it up. Watch for a full review in the near future.

Nice review Ray. Sounds like Big Sky still has their legendary delivery though.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm being really critical. I know you got a lot of flak over the pack reviews, so it may seem like piling on (for what it's worth, I thought the pack reviews were great -- I think it is an impossible job because so much of it is personal preference, but you did it well).

I really appreciate these reviews, and when I saw the notice "Double Wall Tents (2010)" I got really excited. However, after reading the review, I was disappointed. Not in the way you covered the tents (I though you did a very good job) but in the tents you covered. To me, the list of tents looks a lot like what Backpacker Magazine might review. Yes, just about all of these can be bought at REI -- that is the problem. I want to be clear, here, I love REI, I buy most of my gear at REI, but there is a lot of great stuff that simply isn't sold at REI. This is the stuff I expect you to rate. Maybe it is too much for you to cover all of the combinations. Fine, then remove some of the standard tents. Again, this could be done simply and easily, by lowering the weight standard. Failing that, I would err on the side of reviewing a cottage tent, rather than one sold at REI. I can walk into REI and see how an MSR tent fits. I can buy it and return it without guilt or cost (no postage). The same isn't true with many of the mail order tents.

I think it is impossible to rate every combination of net-tent and tarp. But, at the same time, I came up with several examples of companies that state, on their website, that it makes for a good "double walled tent" when paired as such. Another approach would be to simply ask some of these companies for a combination that meets the requirement. Some may say they don't have it, or that it would be a stretch. Others will say that a particular net-tent was designed to go with a particular tarp.

Now, a personal story. When I started reading about ultralight backpacking, I ended up getting a single walled tent from Eureka (a tarp didn't make sense -- too many bugs). The tent sucked. Eureka makes a lot of good tents, but this one had horrible condensation problems. Then I found out about this website. Soon after, I saw a review of single walled tents. They included a few tents from big manufacturers, but the ones that came out on top were made by SMD and TarpTent. I had never heard of them. Based on this website, I decided to get a TarpTent Squall 2. If not for this website, I may have given up on single walled tents and ultralight backpacking in general. If I hadn't gone ultralight, I probably wouldn't have gone to half the places I've gone (I hate carrying a heavy pack, it kills me). In other words, those reviews changed my life (for the better). I just don't see this review doing that for anyone, while a review that included tarp/net tents combinations could.

Again, it's too late for this review. It's also not fair to suggest that you test gear that wasn't available when you started testing. What I do suggest is that if you consider these types of tents (or whatever you want to call them) in the future when doing reviews. Throw them in a different class, if you want, but I would really appreciate such reviews. I don't know if you plan on doing a test of one person double walled tents, but that might be a place to do it.

Ray did a great job, IMO.

We really need to remember that this is JUST a SOTMR, not a comprehensive review, based on the criteria that Ray/BPL established.

So take a look at what is out there, and if something tickles your fancy, then research further. Many of those tents have more detailed reviews in other places here on BPL. Also as STOMR, most of these are mainstream shelters, as that is what comprises the largest market share.

An UL STOMR with a little different criteria would provide the opportunity to look at the cottage industry. Also keep in mind that BPL would have to buy most of these tents, because the small business owners often cannot supply samples. A single tent can cost them a lot of money when you look at the additional gross profit that must be generated in additional sales to cover each sample. We cannot just state that it would be good marketing for them, because most do not even keep a full inventory in stock (Shires might be an exception for some items), especially when you consider that some of them offer shelters in several material options. Sometimes there is a multi-week wait to get the UL shelter of your choice.

Guys, I am just a contract writer for BPL. I was asked if I was interested in writing this, and testing and writing full reviews on four or five (turned into seven) of the tents, because of the kind of tents I use for the most part myself. (Will has known me for years before I came to BPL.) I did not set the criteria, but I do think that many new people trying to lighten up will find these a good step in the right direction. Personally even though I have lighter options I find myself gravitating back to these class of tents just because they work best for me and I like them.

There are SOTMR’s planned for other types of shelters. (I know because I was asked if I was interested in, and ran screaming from, floorless shelters.) And when they do 2P UL tents weighing under 2.5 lb you won’t have to worry about these ones being in it. ;-)

> Also keep in mind that BPL would have to buy most of these tents, because the
> small business owners often cannot supply samples. A single tent can cost
> them a lot of money when you look at the additional gross profit that must be
> generated in additional sales to cover each sample.

This is an ongoing problem for BPL. We would LOVE to test more large UL products from the cottage industry, but we cannot afford to buy them, and they cannot afford to give us a review sample (or so they say). If we had a bigger budget things might be different, but as we are currently structured (no advertising revenue), that isn't possible.

So yes, there is a problem here. Solutions would be appreciated.

Cheers

if i was a cottage manuf who was totally confident in my product and believed it was as good or better than anything else out there

id jump at the chance to send it to BPL ... for a cost of a few hundred you get exposure to your target market ...

the flip side is that a poor review can have an outsized impact as well

credit to those manuf who have walked the plank and sent their stuff in to be tested

here's a question ... does BPL publish poor reviews ... or just average/above average/recommended/highly recommended ... hmmmmm

Edited by bearbreeder on 11/04/2010 14:37:52 MDT.

"So yes, there is a problem here. Solutions would be appreciated."

If there is any gear, particular or general that is sought after for testing yet remains elusive to obtain, why not ask the community for a loaner? I would be happy to allow a tester a (gentle) crack at some of my gear for the purposes of objective evaluation.

Ray, would you like to borrow a Brooks Range Rocket tent before I modify it? ;)

(by the way, thanks for the report Ray! mass props.)

One more solution:

I hear that cottage gear sells rather well on the Gear Swap Forum (understated for emphasis). Perhaps if BPL bought samples, some of the companies would be willing to sell at a modest discount for the cause. Regardless, it would doubtful be cumbersome to turn them around for minimal expense and hassle, albeit still a potential cash flow occlusion.

Aaron,

Excellent suggestion to ask the BPL membership for a loaner. Of course it would need to be understood that for longer term testing it is not a short-term loan.

If the manufacturer provides a loaner, it is no longer a new item that can be sold. But, due to short supply they might be able to get close to retail for it. But lets keep in mind that many do not have items in inventory and loaning out one $300 tent that could be sold today could mean no food this week.

No disrespect to anyone, but I have to ask/state a question. "Have you ever owned a business?" It is not as easy as one may think. If you work for someone else, then you probably get a regular pay check. The small business owner gets a paycheck only if there is money left over after paying all the bills. It is all about cash flow. And I bet many of the cottage manufacturers make a lot less money than many of us. There is also a limit to how much time they can work everyday, as they have other responsibilities in life. Lastly, if they want to make a lot more money, then they will need to attract a larger customer base, which means making "mainstream" products, which some do, and other refuse to do. It can be a real tightrope.

All I am saying is that we love our UL gear makers, and many of us have spent a lot of money with them. But we must recognize that it is often not easy to own these kind of businesses. Many of us love our UL cottage manufacturers, because we are selfish... we want and need their products. Unfortunately we are small minority in the universe of gear buyers.

I think it is really cool that many of these owners post here on BPL, they are members of our community too. I don't see the presidents of REI, Montbell, MSR, etc. participating in our forums. When Dan M, Dave O, Henry, Ron M, Ron B, Brian F, Chris, Rand, Glenn, Grant, and a host of others join in it makes this place magical. There would be no UL hiking for most of us without these business owners.

Hi Ray,

Thanks for the fantastic review- this is exactly the kind of information that I am looking for, being reasonably new to lightweight backpacking.

I also have the Fly Creek UL2 and also think it is a great shelter (for the conditions that I hike in).

I think my next purchases will be a Scarp 2 and some sort of tarp/bivvy combo or similar so I look forward to researching more information in that area- although, like yourself Ray, I'm still not 100% on a floorless shelter!

Cheers,
Will

Ask members to provide their tents and tarps and in return give them a free upgrade to life time member or a pre-paid subscription for 2 years or the like. you don't loose any revenue, and in the end the whole community would benefit from a comprehensive review of a tent by someone who doesn't own it.

> does BPL publish poor reviews
Very good question.
I can only answer for myself, and maybe one or two others.

Realistically, I can usually tell from a fair distance whether something is just not going to make it. OK, maybe a few items might slip past me untested as a result, but my experience says not many. As I have rather a lot of good gear to be tested, I avoid the not-so-good.

What about things that look interesting but turn out poorly? There have been a few of these over the years. In this case I may simply not get around to doing the review: there are better items to spend my time on after all. In a few cases something can be salvaged, often as part of a survey.

So, is there filtering? In practice, yes. Can I safely take it you do not really want a string of reviews of sub-standard gear?

Cheers

thanks Roger

the problem i have is i dont know when im shopping around and dont see the product reviewed on BPL ... whether it the product just wasnt tested or if it was and didnt do well at all .... hopefully i avoid the latter

a listing of products being tested would help us know whether to hold off till the test is published (or is buried) ... and would probably generate some excitement

of course if some gear doesnt test well i dont expect BPL to publish the results ... the staff could get lynched !!!

American Alpine Institute Guides Choice testing does it this way ...

http://www.guideschoice.com/SitePage.asp?ipage=77

"here's a question ... does BPL publish poor reviews ... or just average/above average/recommended/highly recommended ... hmmmmm"


Good question. I have been reviewing gear for 6 years at another site. Roger was one of my first editors, and along with Will encouraged me to come here. At that other site I have written about 140 reviews of gear I buy myself, and 40+ tests that the manufacturer provides.

As I only write about something that has got a lot of real-world use if something is junk I just won’t take it again. Why be miserable using something for months just to write about it for nothing more than the feeling you are helping fellow hikers? So in those cases no, I won’t do a “bad” review. I will be honest if that item comes up in a gear forum discussion as I want to save my fellow from having to find out the hard way.

Now a test item that I have committed to use is different. Those I will use and I will be brutally honest about it. I will report the flaws but will try to balance with the (hopefully) positives as well. But I won’t lie for anyone. My first review for BPL was the NEMO Elite that was just OK, and I said so. It is pretty cool to see that three of my complaints/suggestions have been incorporated into the newest version.

But like Roger said, if something was that bad I may ask to drop the test if it is OK with Ryan and the manufacturer, choosing to just give feedback directly to the manufacturer to hopefully use to get it right next time.

Congratulations on having collated such a large sample range.
As with the backpack review, you cannot include everything, nor please all.
I have enough problems just testing a few Tarptents let alone have the time to look at other shelters. (not that I would bother)
kidding aside I happen to know that the various reviewers here need to have a great passion for the products because the financial rewards make slave labour look like a lucrative proposition.
So well done again.
The only bit that I would like clarified is to add a note under the Scarp picture (the one with the deer) to say that it is meant to show how not to pitch that shelter.
BTW, all of the Scarp pictures are of the old version, including the correctly pitched one further down.
Franco

Edited by Franco on 11/05/2010 19:28:17 MDT.

Hi Mary - Have you checked out Granite Gear's The Haven? They told me it weighs about a pound. It looks like a pretty good bug protection.

Not one mention of a Tarptent being anyones favorite in the wrap up. Looks like double wall tents have really stepped up in the past 5 years?

"Not one mention of a Tarptent being anyones favorite in the wrap up. Looks like double wall tents have really stepped up in the past 5 years?"

Huh? The Scarp is a great shelter. What other double walled two person shelters does Tarptent have?

I have had the opportunity to get 2 tents over the past 2+ years frtom big Sky with no problems/ issues.