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Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: "BC ski gear for rugged, mileage focused touring" on 11/04/2010 00:39:24 MDT Print View

"What is "double camber"?"

There are several definitions, and they all fight around the same quality of a ski. Take the skis and put them together along the ski surfaces. If the skis were completely flat, the entire ski surfaces would fit together neatly. However, there is usually a bit of arch in the foot area of each ski, so that makes for an arched gap between the two skis. If you can squeeze the two together so that they flatten out together, and if you can do that easily with one hand, some people call that single cambered. If it requires the strength of both hands to do it, they call that double cambered.

Some people check the same quality with the skis flat on a hard floor and with your normal weight equally on the skis. That slight amount of arch will raise each ski up so that a dollar bill underneath the ski can be pulled out from under it. That is typical of a double cambered ski. A single cambered ski will be so flat to the floor that the dollar bill cannot be easily extracted.

The whole idea of camber becomes important depending on what kind of ski turns you do and how you carve a turn. In general, a double cambered ski is better for doing lots of touring miles on a flat route, and a single cambered ski is better for carving a tele turn on a moderate slope.

--B.G.--

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: "BC ski gear for rugged, mileage focused touring" on 11/04/2010 03:08:09 MDT Print View

Hi Bob

> slight amount of arch will raise each ski up so that a dollar bill underneath
> the ski can be pulled out from under it. That is typical of a double cambered ski.

If you ever get the chance, check out the old Bonner Conquest skis. They were sold as 'double camber', but I suspect you could get rather more than a single dollar bill under them - more like Freddie Mac's deficit imho. Even two handed I could barely get the soles to touch. But unbelievably rugged! And very fast in the straight too. Turning? Don't ask. Sigh.

Cheers

Gerry Volpe
(gvolpe)

Locale: Vermont
touring on 11/04/2010 06:46:09 MDT Print View

David I looked at the alpina boots you spoke of and in my experience with the lookouts I think(without having tried them) that they would be plenty of boot for the ski. Again try not to have to high of expectations for turning but for what you describe as your end use they would proabably work. Just be prepared to want a more turn oriented set up if you end up enjoying your travels this winter it will be a whole different world.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Backcountry Skiing on 11/08/2010 20:00:00 MST Print View

My favorite site for backcountry skiing is this one
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html

To quote the author:
"Nordic backcountry touring falls in that odd middle ground between cross-country skiing and telemark skiing. "

For that type of skiing here in CO, I'm all about 'old school teles' with kick wax. The (mainly) consistent snow of the CO winter makes using a wax a joy vs. fishscales.

"I think these skis are ideally suited for experienced backcountry travelers who are interested in pushing deep into the winter woods with a reasonably equipped day pack or overnight pack"

I am the point where I love skiing almost as much as backpacking. :)

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
My Backcountry gear on 11/09/2010 10:28:18 MST Print View

I have gradually evolved into two types of ski setups for backcountry touring.

GENERAL TOURING>
SKIS- Norwegian army skis (new) W/Voile 3 pin release bindings
BOOTS - old Vasque leather 75 mm W/ Thinsulate overboots for colder weather

STEEP TOURING>
SKIS - Atomic TM 22, again W/ Voile 3 pin RELEASE bindings
BOOTS - Scarpa T3

Poles are usually Leki hiking poles W/ larger snow baskets.
The Norwegian (Asnes) army skis are 210 cm for max flotation and good straight line tracking. I know, long, but I'm "Old School".

Release bindings are important for backcountry safety for this old Nordic patroller who has transported his share of accidents.

Edited by Danepacker on 11/09/2010 10:30:22 MST.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
LEATHER BOOT MODS on 11/09/2010 10:29:05 MST Print View

They used to sell strap-on plastic ankle support cuffs for leather boots. This would be easy to put on to help stiffen leather boots for the odd but necessary hairy downhill run when doing "mileage touring".

I haven't see them advertised in years but perhaps they could be DIY'd from old alpine boot cuffs.

Edited by Danepacker on 11/09/2010 10:36:16 MST.

Douglas Ray
(dirtbagclimber)

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Rossignol BC 125 on 12/11/2010 22:58:15 MST Print View

I got out for a ski tour today in difficult conditions. Boot-top Cascade Cement in about 3' of total accumulation. We toured up a valley on a road and than a hiking trail, gradual rising traverse up and shallow descending traverse back down.

We had an interesting mix of equipment. I was skying 168cm Alpina Lite Terrains w/ 3pin, Bobby had a conventional telemark set-up with Cobras on some older K2's with skins, and John was demo-ing a pair of the new Rosignol BC 125 skis with 3-pins.

We traded skis around all day, and it was interesting. We
we couldn't get the Rosignol skis to climb at all. About 10-degrees was all they would go up. We eventually resorted to taping a pair of skins that were two short onto the skis in order to keep moving.

My Alpinas climb like crazy, I had no problem all day without skins but I couldn't really break trail in those conditions. I've found these skis highly useful due the the aggressive pattern and plenty of side-cut in a shorter ski. The primary thing they lack is flotation. I also had a very hard time trying to descend anything with my skis buried and not coming to the surface.

The rossignol skis floated awesome. They were light and easy to manage and the tip would just come right up. We used them to break trail because they were by far the most efficient tool to do so. They really just don't have much grip to speak of without skins. We all agreed that if they could climb well with the pattern they would be just about ideal but as it was we figured you could only get by without skins on pretty level ground.

Beefy telemark bindings with no tour mode and heavy skis with full skins seemed terribly heavy and slow compared to both of the patterned skis.

We did suspect that we were all a little light for the rossignol skis, as none of us weigh more than 160lb-gear. I still think they should have climbed better than that however. I guess it's back to the search for the perfect ski.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
patterned bases on 12/12/2010 16:35:57 MST Print View

Different ski companies make very different sorts of fishscales. Fischer and Rossi seem to have less grip, but are faster on the down. Karhu/Madshus are in the middle, and Alpina is the most aggressive. None of the patterns are worth a darn in dry, fresh snow.

David Lutz
(davidlutz)

Locale: Bay Area
"BC ski gear for rugged, mileage focused touring" on 12/12/2010 18:17:06 MST Print View

I got out this past weekend on the Kahru Lookout/Rotefella 3-pin/Alpina 1575 combination and had a great time.

This was my first time out, so I was just getting my feet wet, so to speak. I pulled a pulk with the skis on a mix of fire road and trail. The skis climbed and tracked well. I have nothing to compare it to, but everything seemed to work fine.

I even took a whack at making a couple of turns on the slope where we camped. I think the turning thing is going to be trickier than I originally anticipated. My alpine experience helped out as far as just being on the skis, but a tele turn is a whole different animal.

I look forward to basing around around some more.

Nicholas Truax
(nicktruax) - F

Locale: Montanada
Leather and 3 Pin all the way! on 12/13/2010 00:35:14 MST Print View

Gonna disagree w/ ole Rog here and say stay away from NNN boots/binders. Not the stability, control, nor the strength when compared to the OG 3 pins or the LW cables such as Voile or similar. I have used both NNN's, 3 pins and cables, and have found the 3 pins or cables to be much more responsive and strong in real world usage.

If you are looking to go up and to make turns on the way down, NNN's are NOT the way to go. For touring - they are great but not for any torquing. Personally, my favorite in-between are some old Asolo leathers w/ 3-pins on some old skinny metal edged Karhus ... touring and turning all in one! Second to that are some T3's or Garmont 2-straps w/cables on 10th MTNS or Guides, and you may also find touring/turning bliss. That's if you have some prior usage, of course. Aesthetically and functionally speaking, steer clear of the NNN's unless you are are going on moderate/mellow terrain folks.

Horses...Courses...

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Leather and 3 Pin all the way! on 12/13/2010 01:59:42 MST Print View

Hi Nicholas

> unless you are are going on moderate/mellow terrain folks.
Well, that may describe our terrain. Spring touring around Mt Jagungal.
5824 Sue ski touring in front of Jagungal

But we just can't fit into our old 3-pin boots any more. Sad. Fwiiw, I was using Voile plates and Sue was using some very nice limited edition cables.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 12/13/2010 02:01:01 MST.

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Fat Feet? on 12/13/2010 09:27:30 MST Print View

Roger Caffin: "But we just can't fit into our old 3-pin boots any more." What, are your feet getting fat with advanced age?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Fat Feet? on 12/13/2010 14:15:27 MST Print View

> "But we just can't fit into our old 3-pin boots any more." What, are your feet getting fat with advanced age?

Not fat, no way. The boots did fit when we bought them, but our feet HAVE grown about 1.5 sizes over the last 15 years. Yeah, weird, but true.

So now we have these low-cut leather 3-pin Scarpa ski boots in very good condition, with matching skis, and we can't use them. We switched to NNN-BC with new skis when low-cut leather 3-pin boots went off the market a few years ago. Too hasty maybe: low-cut leathers have gone back into production as the demand for them is still there. Not everyone wants plastic Darth Vader coffins on their feet.

Mind you, my understanding is that Scarpa had to bring an old guy out of retirement to teach the new generation how to operate the machines for making leather ski boots ... Nearly lost some important skills there!

Cheers

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Fat Feet? on 12/13/2010 14:26:06 MST Print View

Roger must mean 1.5 sizes in metric sizes.

I've been skiing with 3-pin boots and bindings for over 30 years, and wild horses could not pull me to those newer systems. The newer systems are fine for mild terrain, but when the slopes get serious, the increased torsional stability of a serious boot/binding system pays off.

For the first 20 years, I stuck with Asolo leather boots. Finally about ten years ago, the leather bit the dust. Now I use Karhu boots. They are high top and look like leather, yet they are all synthetic.

--B.G.--

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
If not fat, fallen? on 12/13/2010 15:39:34 MST Print View

Have your arches fallen? Have your foot muscles grown massively, like Arnold's arms and chest? If the total volume hasn't increased, shouldn't a good boot fitter be able to change the shape of the boot to match the new shape of your feet? (Totally incidentally, a few feet to my left as I type, is a low-cut, leather 3-pin boot with fur-out, sheep-skin side-lining, white nylon laces, and no trace of a brand name remaining, except it is stamped "made in Norway" on the bottom. I love 'em.)

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: If not fat, fallen? on 12/13/2010 16:02:08 MST Print View

"(Totally incidentally, a few feet to my left as I type, is a low-cut, leather 3-pin boot with fur-out, sheep-skin side-lining, white nylon laces, and no trace of a brand name remaining, except it is stamped "made in Norway" on the bottom. I love 'em.)"

That's exactly what boots I started skiing in for 1978-1979.

The 3-pin toe was offered in three pin-width sizes, 71mm, 75mm, and 79mm. Even though 75mm became standardized, mine were 79mm. Of course that brought up a whole set of compatibility issues later on.

--B.G.--

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Re: "Re" on 12/13/2010 17:13:04 MST Print View

Hey, stop dating me! My great-grand kids think I'm 32 years old!

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: If not fat, fallen? on 12/13/2010 17:38:27 MST Print View

Roger was probably a tiny lad when those boots were new.

--B.G.--

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Roger's feet on 12/13/2010 20:20:51 MST Print View

But he stopped growing, while his feet kept getting bigger and bigger. Is he an alien? (Besides being an Aussie) Maybe he could get a job in a circus as a big-footed clown. Sorry Roger, I know I'm going off the deep end of the cruelty pool.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Fat Feet? on 12/14/2010 16:16:07 MST Print View

Hi Bob

> Roger must mean 1.5 sizes in metric sizes.
Nope.
I went from about 7.5 US to 10 US.

At one stage I had my feet inspected by a foot specialist. He carefully looked them over, sat back, and commented very cheerfully that at least my feet would never be a cause for an invalidity pension. Some of the toughest feet he had seen.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 12/14/2010 16:23:03 MST.