I've really enjoyed and learned from this thread, I whole heartedly agree with making life style choices that lead to health and strength. Personally I don't train, but I am very active, both at work and at home. I don't do much cardio, other than some exersion at work, but now that my bike is fixed, I'll bring it to work and during breaks and lunch I'll explore some of the trails that start at the back of the university. What I try to do daily is to run up some of the hills, instead of walking; running up stairs by twos; stop at the exercise stations on campus and do 4 chin ups ( most I have ever done and have been stuck at) once a day. It's about feeling strong and able and nimble, and about not getting hurt. Being able to backpack and charge up a hill, are only some of the benefits. That being said, I have not attempted any exeptional mileage for extended periods of time.
I would like to address the following statement, though, not to criticize it, but rather to add my thoughts to this:

"1. If you are overweight, lose the weight. This is not training. It's just a prerequisite. Until you lose the weight, forget about training. If you're a man, get your body fat down below 20% (measured w/calipers etc., not BMI). Then you can start training."

This may put off some people who have weight issues. It is also not necessarily the case that being overweight rules one out from training. Maybe it is the word "training" that I may be using in a more general sense. It is definitively easier to exercise and run, even to just move around and jump and climb, when not incumbered by a lot of fat, but it is still possible. I guess I worry that some would take that statement as saying" go lose weight, then come back and we'll have something to talk about". I would say that there are different levels of training and that it would be best for overweight people to look at it as an important part to a healthier and easier life. I am making it sound so convoluted; help me say it better.



edited for spelling

Edited by Kat_P on 01/29/2011 17:04:54 MST.

"It is also not necessarily the case that being overweight rules one out from training."

I agree completely, but might add that people with chronic weight problems need to train their minds the most. It can be easy to say "go out and lose the weight," but some people find it very hard to do, or hard to maintain. That, as others have said, has more to do with the mind than anything else.

There are some decent books on the subject - most of them say the same things and most of what they say is common knowledge/common sense. This causes too many people to dismiss them out of hand. We're all built differently, including our brains. Some people need the reinforcement. They don't need an arrogant attitude directed at them -- that's, shall we say, less than helpful. For those looking for a decent book on the subject, try "The Body Fat Solution" by Tom Venuto. As I said, there are others.

"1. If you are overweight, lose the weight. This is not training. It's just a prerequisite. Until you lose the weight, forget about training. If you're a man, get your body fat down below 20% (measured w/calipers etc., not BMI). Then you can start training."

"I am making it sound so convoluted; help me say it better."

I'll take a stab at it, Kat, by giving a couple exceptions to this statement whom I have personally hiked or climbed with.

1. Back in the 70's, I took 2 trips into the Upper Kern Basin, starting and ending at Road's End in KCNP, with a guy who had a grossly protruding pot belly and short stumpy legs. I can state with absolute certainty that his body fat was well north of 20%, with no need to resort to the calipers. We went in over Forester Pass both times, and exited over Harrison Pass on the first trip and over Thunder Pass/Longley Pass on the second trip. Both are fairly strenuous off trail routes, not to be taken lightly, as anybody here who has done either, or both, can confirm. We were both carrying over 50 pounds in our ignorance. This guy did just fine on both trips. His job as a furniture mover served as his training, and he was as strong as an ox.

2. I climbed, hiked, and backpacked for several years with another guy who reminded me of a well fed bear just before hibernation. His body fat was also well in excess of 20%, to the point where he was self conscious about it in the presence of a generally far leaner peer group. He was a solid 5.9 alpine climber of near legendary endurance and strength, served on SAR, and went on to run 16 ultra marathons,50 milers all, not fast, but he ran 'em nonetheless. Underneath all that flab was a lot of well conditioned muscle and a very strong cardio vascular system. We hiked the Enchantments Traverse 4 times, 2 in May in waist deep snow, and the last time in just under 7 hours from the Snow Creek parking lot, which adds an extra 1000' of elevation gain, the point being that this guy, fat and all, could haul a$$ in the mountains like very few I have ever come across, regardless of their body fat percentage.

Are these guys exceptions? Maybe, but I'd bet they are far from alone. Looks can be deceiving. So, to all you fat guys out there: If the idea of moving in the mountains gets your juices flowing, don't look in the mirror and flop back down on the couch. Get out there and do it. You might surprise yourselves. You've got nothing to lose but your flab. My 2 cents.

Much better, thanks.








edited to comment on post below mine:
Ha Ha Doug

Edited by Kat_P on 01/29/2011 18:19:39 MST.

"Much better, thanks."

Perhaps. But you LOOKED much better than Tom or I saying it! ;-)

"1. If you are overweight, lose the weight. This is not training. It's just a prerequisite. Until you lose the weight, forget about training. If you're a man, get your body fat down below 20% (measured w/calipers etc., not BMI). Then you can start training."

Okay, so let me get this straight.... Someone is a bit overweight, but they want to work on a routine to improve their speed, strength and endurance while at the same time achieving a more ideal body weight? Sounds like training to me!

Research suggests that hormone shifts that follow weight loss play a role in changing the way our brain responds to food.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123894109

"great fun in public restrooms"

At all times and everywhere an evangelist for lighteousness : )

calories burned per mile are about the same (around 90-120) whether walking or running, it's the calories per minute/hour/etc. that go up with changes in pace

5-6 days a week, do at least 2-3 miles of walking. Most anyone can do this.
Change over to running after a bit... What you want is at least 1 hour per day doing heavy work. Walking with a pack, running, lifting weights, anything is good and all have their proponents. Do not do the same thing 2 days in a row.
Start slow. Walk for two weeks while your body adjusts. Add a 20# pack for a couple more weeks. Then start running every other day(without the pack.) Add about 1# par week to the pack, no more. Then start a routine after 4-8 weeks.
Example:
1) Walk with a pack
2) Lift and "Groucho" walk (heavy thigh pressure)
3) Walk with a pack doing balancing routines: Feet close together, walking a road line or curb., etc.
4) Run or jog
5) Lift dumbells for 20 minutes, situps, leg lifts, then "Groucho" walk (heavy thigh pressure) for a half hour.
6) Walk with 20# ankle and 15# wrist weights

Do not spend a lot of money on excess equipment. Mostly, it doesn't work. IFF you live in a city, well, maybe...personally, I find the machines very boring. Climb stairs a lot. 15 stories should be about right...up and down. Then the rest of your routine. There are too many ways to get exercise without machines. Much more interesting. A pack can be loaded with newspapers, magazines, etc for weight. Ankle weights and 10, 20, 30 pound dumbells are far cheaper than any machine and just as effective if used properly.

After about 6 months, you can easily do 2 hours of your choice of exercise routines. Work your body, it really LIKES to be worked...well, maybe after you are done, anyway. Don't cheat, don't slack off. Do it. 5-6 days per week.

Weight Loss = don't eat as much. Don't worry too much about this. It will happen as you work acording to the above schedule. You will find eating less will just happen. Your body knows it will be working, it will kill your apetite to a large degree. Avoid snack foods. Fried foods are calories...nice on a hike, not so nice sitting around an apartment. Avoid going back for seconds. You really do not need them.

Anyway, my two cents...

I have done similar for the past 10 years. It works. FWIW.



Your body will adjust and become more efficient at processing food. Your bowel habits will likely change. You might need extra fiber as you loose weight.

I've been following this thread for a few weeks and haven't wanted to weigh in because it's a topic that involves so much anecdotal evidence and peoples opinions are deeply personal.

But I can't resist...

First, I can't help but laugh a bit when people say "if you want to loose weight just eat less". If you have never been overweight, or had to loose weight YOU HAVE NO reason to make any comment about the subject. I'm naturally "tall and lanky", but for athletic pursuits I've weighed over 245 lbs at 6'3". I've been able to gain 50 lbs in six months and loose 30 lbs in 3 months for the hiking season. Do you do it by just eating less? NO. You cut back on carbs, eat a lot of protein, and bump up your fat intake. Basically you want to give yourself the equivalent "race car fuel" so that you don't go into starvation mode, which lowers your metabolism and leads to muscular atrophy. You want your metabolism flying... Having some muscle helps with this too. Athletes who have to "make weight" know all the tricks for weight loss, and they don't starve themselves.

So, if you're 150-160lbs (male and 5'7 or taller) and have always been that way, just don't give people advice on weight loss. You need to have experience with something to give advice.

Intervals and all that are great, but for someone who has lead a sedentary life they are hard. As Mark Twight has written, they "fine tune" a base of fitness. You need the base first...

Weights: If you don't lift over 50% of you 1 RM, it is useless. Weights are for strength training, but modern gyms (Nautilus and Arthur Jones) and bodybuilding have lead to very silly practices regarding how people "work out". Going to the gym and doing the standard 3x10 reps of curls with light dumbbells is a waste of time. Mark Rippetoe has written extensively about how a novice should train for strength. His books Practical Programming and Starting Strength are standard reading material on the subject. He has a good website, and well known experts (not internet gurus: ex olympians and collegial S&C coaches) in the field of strength and conditioning contribute regularly: startingstrength.com

http://startingstrength.com/articles/novice_effect_rippetoe.pdf
http://startingstrength.com/articles/core_stability_rippetoe.pdf

Keep in mind that people's exercise routines are engrained in their lives and not based on increasing fitness (try defining fitness!). It's a very personal subject. For most, just being active is a what counts. This is a hiking forum - go hike as often as you can, gradually increase the distances, pace and load carried and your body will adapt to the demands that you put on it.

*edited for spelling. I make a lot of typos.

Edited by RobertL on 01/30/2011 08:15:07 MST.

Didn't think anybody on the thread mentioned becoming a powerlifter as evangelized by Rippetoe. When Rippetoe is selling you something, take much of what he says with two grains of salt. Crossfit is the latest hype in exericise. Next year there will be another exercise routine with another cool name.

Improving muscle tone with light weights/bodyweight exercises/biking/hiking is better than becoming a steroid stallion.

Losing weight is about burning more calories than you consume, however you can get there. Motivation is a huge part of it.

Edited by jshann on 01/30/2011 09:37:16 MST.

"If you have never been overweight, or had to loose weight YOU HAVE NO reason to make any comment about the subject."

So by this logic you could only practice criminal law if you are a convict, men can't be gynocologists, astromners can't exist since they haven't actually been to space. Only minorities can talk race relations, antiwar protesters can't protest unless they have actually been to war and on and on. Frankly, that comment is ridiculous.

Now, if you want to say "If you haven't been overweight you don't know how hard it is to lose weight" then you may have a point to debate. But even folks that don't have weight to lose have to work to keep their weight in check. I would love to sit down and eat a box of swiss rolls but I know that it would take me almost two hours of hard exercise to undo the calories. And one day two weeks ago I did sit in my office eat an entire box of swiss rolls and I made up for it over the next few days. (I have vowed top change my evil ways!)

Now as to the subtance of "silly workouts" I believe ANY excersise that pushes folks out of their comfort zone if helpful. Is it as good as workout x,y or z? Who knows but at least they are active and moving in the right direction.

Edited by gg-man on 01/30/2011 09:31:58 MST.

"So by this logic you could only practice criminal law if you are a convict"

Lawyers and Dr's study extensively in their fields, are tested and have to pass board exams etc. The point I was making is an awful lot of people are fly-by-night nutrition and exercise experts. Information is often anecdotal.

"Rippetoe is selling you something, take much of what he says with two grains of salt"

I agree. Take everything with two grains of salt. Rippetoe, P90X and Crossfit all want to make money. However, following a simple linear progression for two months once a year works magic. I never said anything about becoming a powerlifter. Powerlifters are at the extreme end of a spectrum, and long distance runners are at the other. Being able to pick up relatively heavy things and running a half decent 10K is attainable for most people though.

"I believe ANY excersise that pushes folks out of their comfort zone if helpful"

I agree.

"Losing weight is about burning more calories than you consume"

This is not 100% true and I know it's a statement opens up a can of worms. Humans aren't bomb calorimeters. Everything we eat leads to hormonal responses. If you're sedentary and live on a diet of swiss rolls weight gain can occur even if your calorie intake is below theoretical basal levels. Insulin really is magical that way...

It's very hard on people when they are told just to eat less or eat fewer calories when they hardly eat at all. It's an oversimplification that leads to self esteem problems.

Edited by RobertL on 01/30/2011 12:21:04 MST.

"It's very hard on people when they are told just to eat less or eat fewer calories when they hardly eat at all. It's an oversimplification that leads to self esteem problems."

I was just watching "Killer Stress/National Geographic" on PBS

Stress causes hormone changes that is one cause of obesity

Stress is where things are done to you that you have no effect over

For example, if people tell you to just eat less to reduce obesity, but it doesn't work for you

Vicious Cycle

Try to eat less, exercise more, smell the roses, try to not worry about what other people say, start a training program on a limited basis and maybe you can work your way up to something more vigorous

I have never been overweight so I don't know what I'm talking about

>> If you have never been overweight, or had to loose weight YOU HAVE NO reason to make any comment about the subject.

That means I'm an expert. I was sure that I was, and now I'm really sure. I'm 5'11 and 175+/- but in my glutton days would hover around 225. My favorite and best exercise other than eating was bench pressing. All I got out of it was the need to buy bigger shirts. Stupid, yes. Fortunately I saw the light. Not only in a backpacking sense but in a life style change. It's been over six years and I've had no relapse. My mind has definitely changed. IMO your mind is the key to reaching a healthy weight and routinely exercising. You must alter your mind and embrace a new lifestyle. SIMPLIFY. All will start working out for you. Do it!

Unfortunately many people can not lose weight and when they do they regain. It is their mind doing its thing. The problem is there is way too much food everywhere. Much of the food is processed and horrible for people. Look around at any crowd. How many fat people do you see? I do agree that there are fat and fit people. I know some but they are the exception. Most fat people are unfit like I was.


back to pretzel logic...

I stepped up on the platform
The man gave me the news
He said, You must be joking son
Where did you get those shoes?
Where did you get those shoes?

(note: it's by Steely Dan for you young'uns)

I did a few walks with a guy 20 years younger than me ( I am 55)
During the walks he kept talking about his gym programme, martial art training and generally all of the physical exercise he does.
At one point he asked me what I do to be "this fit" (I was constantly ahead of him and a lot less tired at the end of the day) I told him that in fact I do not do any exercises at all, just some walks.
As we spent some time in between walks too it all became too apparent why he needed all that exercise and that was the way and what he eats.
Too many salty/sugary things pass his mouth in between meals and he has the tendency to eat his evening meal late at night and go to bed straight after.
However when I pointed that out that to him he promptly dismissed that , as people in his situation usually do.
Bring back the word gluttony and offer free full body X ray so that we all know that there are no large boned people.
BTW, if you are large and happy with that, that is fine with me, in fact it is none of my business.
Here is a tip : if you like to crave food in the afternoon, start the day by skipping breakfast and have a small lunch.
Franco

"Here is a tip : if you like to crave food in the afternoon, start the day by skipping breakfast and have a small lunch. "

Like:" Breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince and dinner like a pauper"

Yes along those lines but not rigidly so.
When you take the fun (pleasure) out of eating problems will arise.
So often is not exactly what you eat but how.
That is really the secret of the so called "French diet" . There is butter and fatty meat but there are also loads of herbs and spices, a little wine and some good conversation.
Learn the importance of variety, eat the colours




see the difference ?
Not hard is it ?

My direct experience is my wife. She eats a lot less than me during meals (no breakfast at all) but grazes (her term) in the afternoon and evening. Yes, she is fat.
Same for workmates over 30 years. No they cannot be told, they always know better.
Franco
BTW, at the end of a hike I like nothing better than a fat burger and a beer...

Edited by Franco on 01/30/2011 15:36:37 MST.

"fat burger" - but you are allowed only one...