I've been sliding down hill for years and after spending the summer sick with an upper respiratory infection, have gotten on the bandwagon to lose weight and get into shape. I started out at 230 lbs and through diet & exercise lost 15 lbs in the last 2 months. I've mixed up cycling and weight training. My friend and I have renewed our passion for camping and hiking and are in the process of planning to try the Georgia section of the AT (the hardest part) this spring. I talked to my trainer who can't get his mind out of the gym. I realize there is some merit for mixing weight training with cardio and endurance training. I live close to several parks that have 5-10 miles of trails and plan to start doing weekly treks with my pack to get ready. I want to lose 30 more lbs and get down to 185. I'm also a firefighter so all of this will help in all areas.

Can someone suggest a workout regimen/schedule to prepare for this trip? I'm planning to see a nutritionist as well but trying to combine all factors may prove difficult.

Thanks,
Mike

Edited by maspain on 10/27/2010 09:12:20 MDT.

Don't know how you feel about trail running, but I find it to be pretty good training for backpacking. Works balance muscles better than road running, softer surface, and you get some nature time. Long training hikes are obviously good, but trail running is nice for days when you can't commit a large block of time.

Good luck!

If you are in ATL then go up and day hike the AT and other trails up north. You don' have to wait to do it all at once. Cohutta and Chatooga River are also great areas. If you haven't day hiked Kennesaw Mt you should give that a go. You can get easy or tough miles depending on the route. Also, you may try running and/or trail running. That will likely be the fastest way to get in hiking shape for your trip.

BTW. I have hiked all of georgia and NC up to US 64 and all of it was day hikes. Use GA to get in shape and do NC as a longer trip. Another option.

Edited by gg-man on 10/27/2010 09:28:37 MDT.

+1 for trail running.
but run on a trail with uphills and downhills. not something flat.
if you've never done it before, do not be daunted by the concept.
You are allowed to WALK whenever you want to in trail running. In long distance trail running almost everyone walks the uphills in power walking mode.

Edited by asandh on 10/27/2010 10:29:20 MDT.

I have found that one all day hike, once a week is much better for me than a few short hikes during the week. If you can do both then great, but it's the long hikes that really get me ready for backpacking. Before a trip, I try and do a 10-14 hour hike each week and increase the mileage a little each time. There's no science behind this theory, it's just my personal experience.

Walking and hiking work for me. You can walk or hike with weight by carrying water or groceries in a pack.

Tabata sprints, and most other forms of brief high-intensity exercise, are great for giving your metabolism a kick and are associated with similar gains in endurance without the wear-and-tear of grinding out the miles on a long trail run.

A good mix of high-intensity brief exercise episodes interspersed with a general habit of low-intensity exercise like walking/hiking, recovery-pace cycling, and low-pace trail running if it's in your low-intensity zone (basically anything that doesn't leave you winded) seem to be the optimal exercise profiles for general health.

I have to agree with the one day a week all day hike.

I find that does the most gain for me.

For short workouts during the week, I load up my pack with much more weight than I plan to carry and try and get in 3-5 miles even after dark on local paved paths around my neighborhood. I try and walk as fast as I can the entire way for a little more push.

If its bad weather, I simply load up the pack and get on the treadmill. I have used the elliptical and raised the elevation and upped the resistance.

I have found running and hiking to be much different in muscles required. I am just getting into running but I find it uses my quads much more as opposed to hiking where I feel like I use my hamstring muscles more

If you're not tall, you've probably already found how uncomfortable it can be to run and walk long distances at 215-230 pounds. As I'm sure you know, it's better to lose fat than to lose weight. I doubt you'd complain about being 215 pounds if you were built like Arnie when he was big. Anyway, doing big muscle compound exercises are great. Do squats, deadlifts, lunges and leg press, somewhat in that order. Definitely check out youtube videos for how to do the first two, or ask the biggest dude at the gym how to do them...you could ask a trainer, but I've found most are clueless. Pull ups and bent over rows should hit most of your back. That pretty much takes care of the two biggest and fastest progressing muscle groups in your body. Swimming would be great for cardio, but I totally understand how stripping down to swim can be undesirable when there's more than a few pounds to lose. If you can, walk, walk, walk, and then walk some more. The other exercises are basically for when you can't walk.

just hike or walk hills .... or jog up hills and take yr sweet @ss time walking down

whatever you do the most important thing is that you MUST feel burn or you MUST sweat like crazy

if neither is happening ... your just not trying hard enough

and keep at it day after day

Congratulations Mike on your weight loss, that is something to celebrate, lifestyle change isn't easy and takes time. Mike, I'm by no means a personal trainer, or health guru so take what I say as my opinion, but I can tell you as a son of a lifelong endurance and fitness proponent and trainer that body weight exercises and CONSISTENCY in whatever you chose to do is going to be most beneficial to you right now, both in your nutrition and your exercise. If you've been sedentary for an extended period of time simply getting out like you've been doing and walking paired with your change in nutrition is going to yield an increase in overall health. I'm going to be the devils advocate here and disagree with the once-a-week approach to preparation for an extended hike, sure, there is no argument to the benefits of doing so and it works for some, but you run the risk of overuse injuries biting off more than you can chew in an extended day hike at this point. Gradual growth and progression throughout the week is going to train your body's muscles, bone structure, ligaments, tendons, etc. for the relative rigors of repeated use on the trail hiking which you'll encounter in your GA section hike. Once you've established a solid base level of fitness I think you'll be ready to start training with more specificity towards your goal, but in your early phases (which from your post it seems you are in) progressive and consistent proper physical activity throughout the week is going to be most beneficial.

It's been my experience that many traditional gym trainers have one goal in mind and that is to LOSE WEIGHT, which seems harmless enough and is a byproduct of attaining fitness, which should always be the foremost goal IMO. Often trainers neglect functional strength, which can very easily be attained in simple body weight exercises that can be done at home or on the trail such as: hiking, sumo squats, lunges, pushups, pullups, chinups, short intense cardio intervals, box jumps, planks, burpees, knee raises. I'm not suggesting you quit your trainer, just consider that being able to move your body around with control and function isn't always found in repetitions on a machine that limits your range of motion and controls the weight for you. Eric nailed it in his suggestion to just get out and walk hills, nothing can really replicate hiking like...hiking, pair that with some cross training and you'll lose that weight you mentioned, be ready for your section hike, and have some additional fitness to boot. Elevating your heartrate is going to be beneficial in gauging your effort, just recognize your limitations and don't push yourself to the point of injury. You're probably going to get a "forget all this workout mess and just hike!" suggestions, sure, hike and hike as often as you can, but just hiking doesn't necessarily develop a well rounded and fit individual, but that's an entirely different subject I suppose. Best of luck to you Mike!

Daily one hours walks are great for you. Do them.

But more important will be creating and sticking to a *real diet*. Weight has to come from somewhere: excess food is the only source. Sorry, but that's pretty basic.

The plus side? You can do it.

Cheers
PS: post exercise snacks? A killer.

I agree with the last few posters. Just change your life style with daily exercise, which can just be walking for an hour or two every day. On days you don't have to go to work, you might want to do extra mileage, but it doesn't have to be super strenuous. Compliment this with a healthy diet and you will soon be in good shape.

I've done a little scouring of the web on Tabata- I can see where this could be really beneficial (albeit somewhat torturous!)

watching several videos (only 4 minutes long) I can see that my old idea of what high intensity is, has changed completely :)

I'm a big proponent of the high intensity intervals. My favorite are short, all out sprints on the bike. Might be good for you, since you already mentioned cycling as something you've been doing. The cardio benefits are pretty impressive.

I find this is a really good routine:

1. Warm Up (slow increase to my avg. pace ~ 20mph)
2. Intervals of:
1/4mile sprint (up to 40-45mph for me, lasts < 30sec)
1/2mile avg. pace (1.5min)
1/4mile sprint
1/2mile avg. pace
1/4mile sprint
1/2mile avg. pace
1/4mile sprint
3. 3 mile avg. pace
4. Repeat 2 and 3
5. Repeat 2
6. Cool Down (drop to avg. pace and continue to slow until your heart rate is just above your starting heart rate)

In this setup, my goal is to sprint until my heartrate is just approaching my theoretical maximum. Then avg. pace long enough that I'll be able to maintain the next sprint without hitting that max heart rate too quickly. The 3 mile avg. pace between sets should get your heartrate back down to a comfortable active level.

Obviously, this is not something you want to attempt as your first foray back into cardio training, but it is great for much faster results once you know your heart can handle it.

And on another note, "snacking" after training is not necessarily a bad thing. You have to pay attention to what you eat, as you always should, but depending on how long and how intense the level of exercise, eating after training can be dam-near mandatory. It helps you (and your muscles) recover quicker and more effectively.

There are two types of conditioning, aerobic and anaerobic. The first is base training and the latter intense intervals. It is best to build your base conditioning with aerobic, before attempting intervals.

You will find that most competitive distances runners will do months of base training before stepping on a track to do interval training. The interval training can be hard on the body for those with joint problems and such. For most hikers I think the aerobic is much more important than intervals, although interval training can be helpful for many, assuming the proper base conditioning is in place.

Cardio intervals have been proven to dramatically increase the aerobic capacity of an individual in a fraction of the time. They have also been shown to naturally increase the production of testosterone in men, helping to add overall body muscle mass and decrease fat.

Unfortunately, they are hard as hell to do.

Just as an FYI, intervals don't require you be on foot. I get the majority of my anaerobic/interval activity on a mountain bike during the nicer seasons.

Edited by simplespirit on 11/05/2010 13:37:47 MDT.

Exactly Chris. Thanks for pointing that out.

>> Unfortunately, they are hard as hell to do.

>> Exactly Chris. Thanks for pointing that out.

There are lots of methods to do both which do not require running.

I prefer to just hike, it is the most fun. I am fortunate that here I can hike year round and scenic destinations to do so are very close.

Unfortunately I have suddenly gained a bunch of weight the past couple of months, which is a new thing for me... so I shall be hitting the gym for a while. I didn't realize it until I took some pictures for Dan McHale with the demo pack on. I noticed I now have belly :(


Disgusting!!

If you're looking for a workout other than walking/running/hiking that will help improve your hiking, try squats and lunges. I've started doing CrossFit quite a bit (one of my NCOs is a fanatic) and they really seem to help me, obviously more on uphill segements. You can cherry pick the lower body workouts if you like

For when you can't get out and run CrossFit is actually kind of nice because most of them are combined strengh/aerobic workout.

ive actually stopped doing squat and lunges with no loss in leg strength

i just go rock climbing several times a week ... and hike/scramble skills

if yr rock climbing with good footwork ... anything less than overhanging is basically a series of one legged squats anyways ....

Keep mixing it up to avoid getting into ruts where training gets boring or progress slows.

I've started to get into triathlon. Running and biking long distances aren't new to me but swimming distance is. I'm noticing big fitness gains from adding the swimming: full-body, excellent cardio, but nice and low-impact. I can swim for 1-2 hours, and while leaving the water exhausted, it's very refreshing to not feel battered or saddle-sore. Great for hard run or bike recovery days. With these three sports, there's never really a day I can't do one or more of them, regardless of which part of me is sore or injured. I'm finding the swim-bike-run combo highly complimentary and a lot of fun.

The multi-sport approach also keeps workouts fresh with plenty of different activities to suit my mood...open water swimming, road biking, mountain biking, lap swimming, trail running, road running, or just hard hiking...all serve the end-goal well without getting boring.

"You will find that most competitive distances runners will do months of base training before stepping on a track to do interval training. The interval training can be hard on the body for those with joint problems and such.

+1 If you're not pretty well aligned, biomechanically, the risks associated with interval training will probably outweigh the potential rewards for hiking/backpacking. Intensity tends to exaggerate biomechanical imbalances, and intervals are pretty intense.

Tom - how do you figure? If you are interval training on a stationary bike, how will your body alignment cause issue. As Chris pointed out, intervals can be done in any form.

I agree that someone not used to doing intervals should not go out doing wind sprints, but there are definitely ways around physical issues. With intervals, the limiting factor is most definitely mental.

"Tom - how do you figure? If you are interval training on a stationary bike, how will your body alignment cause issue. As Chris pointed out, intervals can be done in any form."

David - Correct. I was referring to running, the only area where I have enough experience to comment. I should have been more specific.

"I agree that someone not used to doing intervals should not go out doing wind sprints, but there are definitely ways around physical issues."

Sure there are. Most important is proper base training. Secondarily, listening to your body and calibrating your interval intensity according to the feedback. Even someone with biomechanical issues can benefit from intervals at a lower intensity and volume. Not everyone has to run 24 x 400 m at a 70 second pace, for instance, to improve their cardio vascular efficiency. I've seen recreational runners run intervals at an 8 minute mile pace and improve their times in road races. It's all relative.

"With intervals, the limiting factor is most definitely mental."

Yes and no. There is definitely a mental toughness factor involved in running intervals successfully, but if it overrides your body's feedback mechanisms, you'll find yourself in trouble real quick. Whether or not this applies to bike intervals, swimming intervals, etc I cannot say.

Tom - I see now. And I fully agree. Thanks,

"Tom - I see now. And I fully agree. Thanks,"

And thank you for bringing me into focus.

Holy Moly,

Tom and I agree!!

The science of running can get very technical, but lets look at some high level theories. Lets take a distance runner who will be in training for several months. The goal will be to train without incurring injury and to peak towards the end of the season when top performance times are needed.

There are 3 phases to the training season:

Base - which is long runs (endurance training) at a slower pace.

Lactate Training - usually 1 - 2 months running further than race distance at a pace about 15-20 seconds less than 5K race pace (tempos). These are not done every day, and more than on tempo is done.

Intervals - previously discussed.

Tempos and intervals can have similar benefits, but tempos can deteriorate the body, because there are no rest periods as in intervals. Also the length of the tempo or interval are dependent upon the distance the runner will be racing. Middle distance runners usually have shorter intervals than 5K or 10K runners.

For most distance runners, the intervals are called speed work because this stage fine tunes the athletes performance for those important races and the end of the season when time counts.

And during the entire season there is usually some base (endurance training) in each stage. Even during the interval stage runners will do some base days and some tempo days.

Regarding the attitude needed for intervals. This depends on the individual. I tend to be a task oriented person. When I ran track 40 years ago, I enjoyed 440 yd intervals more than any other training. I did 65 - 70 second intervals depending upon the number of intervals. I enjoyed the precise distance and timing on the track.

But most of us are not athletes, so I really question the value of interval training for most of us. Now if we just do not much time to exercise every day, then there can be some benefit to interval training, if one starts out slow and is careful. Even mechanical equipment can cause injuries.

As Craig pointed out, swimming is great exercise and can be low impact... if you have access to a pool. I had a roommate in college who was a nationally ranked butterfly swimmer and he was in phenomenal shape. He could do 70 push ups in 60 seconds.

So what is best for the average backpacker here on BPL? For me I try to do a hike every weekend, whether it is a day hike with my wife or a solo over-night trip. During the week when I have to work, I try to do a minimum of 1 hour per day at the gym. 30 minutes on any elliptical and 30 minutes on several stations for varied muscle groups. When time permits, I run a few miles. The weight training are light weights with 3 sets of 15 or 20 reps. Sometimes I run and go to the gym each day. But none of the training is "intense" intervals. This routine also requires that I eat more than most people my age. Before I started this exercise routine a few years ago, I ate a lot less and maintained my weight. Unfortunately, the past two months I have not been doing the weekly exercise, but have been doing day hikes on weekends. Since I have not adjusted my caloric intake, I have gained around 20 lbs, and suddenly weigh more than I ever have. So, this week I just started making time to get back into my exercise routine.

its all up to a person on how many calories they want to burn up in a given interval ...

the more intense the exercise, usually the higher the burn

there are plenty of high intensity exercises that are safe and non impacting ... swimming, stationary biking, etc ...

i do not count walking on flats among them ... youll burn more calories golfing

ultimately if you do want to TRAIN ... you will have to make a sacrifice, just like anything else

its much easier to do something if you train hard for it,

train hard and the fight is easy as boxers say ...

"Holy Moly,

Tom and I agree!!"

Heck, Nick, if we went beyond our Ayn Rand vs Karl Marx dialogue, I'll bet you'd find we have a lot in common, starting with a shared love/experience of backpacking and running. If I recall correctly from one our past thread interactions, at one time you did a lot of backpacking in the southern Sierra, which right off the bat puts you on my short list. You ran hard early in life, and well; it took me until I was in my early 40's, but we were both passionate about it and, to a significant degree, it defined who we were for years; I'd venture to say we both still bask in the warm afterglow of the experience. We both are head over heels in love with wonderful women from racial/ethnic backgrounds vastly different from our own, and have been enriched in countless ways as a result. We both earned whatever success we have attained in life the hard way. I could go on, but I think this is enough to make the point that we have more in common than we have apart. My 2 cents. But I digress; back to running.

Edited to substitute Ayn Rand for John Galt.

Edited by ouzel on 11/08/2010 20:01:22 MST.

"i do not count walking on flats among them ... youll burn more calories golfing"

I think that very much depends on how fast one is walking, and whether or not the golfer is carrying his own bag, and whether or not he is walking or riding in a golf cart. ;)

Edited by ouzel on 11/08/2010 19:57:58 MST.

>> I'll bet you'd find we have a lot in common

Yep. I just like to stir the pot. Upper management in my company has learned NOT to ask my opinion, unless they really want to know what I think :)

"Yep. I just like to stir the pot."

Stir away, and I'll add an occasional dollop of spice. You never know, we might even get invited on "Iron Chef". ;)

Since all the trails I hike are now covered in snow, I have taken my training inside for the winter.

I wanted to stay with "hiking" based exercise, so I stared doign the treadmill.

I set the speed on 3 to 3.5 mph, and vary the elevation between 15 and 0 for my intervals.

I simply set it up to 15 and go till my heart rate gets up near the top of my training zone, then drop it to 0 till I recover...rinse, repeat for a hour.

Yep, in winter the gym is great. I wear a heart rate monitor and hit the stairmaster and the eliptical. Use the right amount of resistance on the latter and you will get a good low impact aerobic workout that actually strengthens your legs. Great for losing weight too, but you've gotta do it four times a week! Also, try hands free for a real sweatfest.

Of course, nordic skiing trumps everything.

Edited by book on 11/28/2010 10:40:38 MST.

x-country skiing and snowshoeing- you won't get much better than that- plus your getting out!

although I have to admit elk hunting in the snow is pretty darn good exercise as well :)

Olympic-style lifting plus the isolation work that I do plus hiking/snowshoeing/long walks keeps me me fit and it's fun as hell. On more than one hike I've appreciated having upper body strength too, in addition to bomber leg and core fitness. I'm working on the mental piece by training for my first competition. It's all useful and transferable.

Adding trekking poles will increase the intensity of your hikes.

Find some activities you like to do... experiment and reap the benefits. Proper technique, as someone posted, is key.
Have fun.

Walking in snow is actually pretty fantastic exercise. It's essentially walking with added resistance and instability, which should both increase the aerobic base and strengthen the leg's stabilizing muscles and train one's sense of balance.

All through highschool (and most of middleschool) I spent several months a year walking 2 miles each way to school and back through lake-effect snow (I'm from the Buffalo, NY area) which went from deep and heavy to crusted down and uneven to thickly iced over after the inevitable freezing rain hit. Once I was able to grow a beard, I enjoyed showing up in the morning with a chinful of frost; everyone thought I was crazy (they were probably at least a little right). I give this experience a lot of credit in the fact that I've never rolled an ankle or slipped on slick surfaces (I'm sure it'll happen, but I think the snow-walking helps).

So skis and treadmills and ellipticals and whatever are great, but don't skip the sidewalk/trail just because the powder's knee deep. Just be sure you're wearing waterproof footwear!

Where I live we just got our first snow on Saturday, and I am thrilled. Though the 10-mile bicycle commute to class tomorrow morning with forecasted freezing rain may be less pleasant... ah well, it's the last week of class.

Mark,
With your location you have the perfect setup for intense winter workouts plus you can be in the outdoors vs. the stuffy old gym. I have found few activities that are as intense as snowshoeing with elevation gain. And you have some prime locations on the east side that are nearly inaccessable to folks coming from the bay area.

"I have found few activities that are as intense as snowshoeing with elevation gain."

A huge +1. I would add that for those who do not have access to that kind of snowshoeing, or live in warmer climes, working out in a gym on a Step Mill(NOT a Stairmaster) can provide a reasonable approximation. This is particularly true if you wear a pack with, say, 20# or so to simulate a winter day hike load.

it is better to accompany your training and exercise with health products and supplements. I have been using this product 'colon cleanse'

---------------------
Jamie

Any more spamming like this and you will be banned.

Colon cleansing indeed! Brain cleansing might be more useful in this case.
And one does NOT need dodgy health products from the seedy underworld of pseudo-medicine either.

Yours
Roger Caffin
Online Community Monitor
Backpacking Light
PS: to the rest of our readers - sorry about that, but really...

Edited by rcaffin on 12/12/2010 19:00:09 MST.

"article marketing ... with intent of driving traffic to an affiiate offer to make money!"

That's not what you're trying to do, is it Jamie?

"That's not what you're trying to do, is it Jamie?"

Perish the thought! Shame on you, Douglas!!

interesting second post on the forums

I am curious to hear opinions on training with a weighted pack, not necessarily with all your gear. I bought 50 lbs of bird seed for $12 and have filled a couple layers of garbage bags and put it in my pack. It weighs 25 lbs to start. Then hit the treadmill for 30 min or so as time allows. My plan is keep increasing weight and time, then to hit the local park that has 10-20 miles of trails 1-2 times per week as the weather improves.

Thoughts?


Mike

if endurance and power are your goals then training with a weighted pack will be helpful.

if speed is your goal (a fastpacking project) then never train with a pack heavier than the one you will use on your project. training with a heavy pack makes you stronger, but I've found it slows your cadence and pace.

Mike,
My suggestion for treadmill workout without knowing what kind of physical condition you're in. Keep the pack at home.

Assume your 80% max speed is 4.0mph
Absolutely no holding on!

Workout 1 - Speed

@.5deg incline
warmup from 3.0 to 4.0 over 10 minutes increasing .1mph per minute.

Start of workout
5 minutes at 4.0
Ramp up from 4.0 to absolute max (like you're falling off) increasing .1mph per minute
After max speed reached recover at 4.0 for 5 minutes.

Repeat at 3,6 & 9 deg incline.
cooldown starting at 4.0mph decreasing .1 mph per minute down to 3mph.

Look to maintain your max speed on each incline.


Workout 2 - Incline

@.5deg incline
warmup from 3.0 to 4.0 over 10 minutes increasing .1mph per minute.

Start of workout
Increase 1 deg per minute up to say 10-12 deg incline. (increase over time)
Walk 20 minutes at max elevation (increase over time.)
Decrease 1 deg per minute down to .5 deg incline.
cooldown starting at 4.0mph decreasing .1 mph per minute down to 3mph.

Workout 3 - Running
Warmup walk then run at comfortable speed for x minutes.

Workout 4 - Decline
If you are lucky enough to have a gym with a decline then you can also max walk this at a decline.

Each of these workout will work slightly different muscles and can significantly increase your comfortable walking speed. I found that my natural walking speed has significantly increased. It now a sporting event to walk next to the moving sidewalk in the tunnel of the ATL airport and outpace everyone walking on the moving sidewalk. These are also great cardio workouts. I generally will have my heartrate up over 170 at the max point in these routines.

Enjoy

Edited by gg-man on 01/28/2011 12:00:04 MST.

I hate "training".

I love integrating "trip preparation" into my lifestyle.

I like simplicity, and like to apply Occam's Razor to this, focusing on five things:

- insulinemic stability
- simplicity
- time constraints
- observable, and measurable results
- no suffering

I've also learned that training is pretty overrated for backpacking, unless you are seriously out of shape. A light pack, low body fat, and a good diet go farther than gym time.

Here's my approach.

1. If you are overweight, lose the weight. This is not training. It's just a prerequisite. Until you lose the weight, forget about training. If you're a man, get your body fat down below 20% (measured w/calipers etc., not BMI). Then you can start training.

2. Don't waste a lot of time. High intensity, short duration, frequent. Think 10 minute workouts to the point of collapse, 3-6 times a day. Much easier to integrate into a normal lifestyle, and high intensity short duration transfers extremely well to backpacking. There is a myth that "to get in shape for backpacking, go backpacking". A fine thought but a huge investment of time if you aren't a thru-hiker, and very painful for the first few weeks.

3. Be simple. Do your workout in the bathroom, or the office, or your house, or on the side of the road. Best ones for backpackers: high repetitions of unweighted full squats, or, to improve your strength as the season gets closer, full squats while wearing a big pack. Squats, and push ups for core development. Do both until you are ready to puke. It takes less than 10 minutes. Repeat 3-6 times a day. No gym membership, no equipment, no fooling around, and it just plain works.

4. Forget aerobic fitness. Once you lose the weight you'll get there soon enough. Mostly, when you're out of breath on the trail, it's because your quads are underdeveloped, your core is sloppy, you are carrying too heavy of a pack, you are carrying too heavy of a gut, or you've screwed up your insulin stability with crappy foods.

5. Eliminate bad foods. Bad foods for backpackers: anything that has a high insulinemic index (ignore glycemic index, you're not a marathon runner), whether it's on the trail, or at home. Don't count calories. Just eat, and eat slowly (so you can better sense when you're full). Ramp up protein significantly so you can build your muscle mass (especially after you lose your weight). Eat lean meats and don't make high fat foods a staple at home while you're "training" and "optimizing your body weight/mass" (see below). Don't fool around with "diet" membership programs (WW et al.). They're only there to take your money, and have no clue what a backpacker needs.

If you are doing a "big trip", target a body fat reserve so that after you do your calorie balance and calculate how much body fat you'll lose on the trip (see here for an example that works well enough), make sure you have 3-5% in reserve. Example: if you're going on a 3 week expedition and you know you are going to lose 15 lbs of body fat to help fuel you in addition to the food you bring, you weigh 160 lbs:

- your 5% body fat reserve = 0.05 * 160 = 8 lbs
- add this to the 15 lbs that you'll burn = 23 lbs
- target body fat % at 160 lbs = 23/160 = 14.4%

In other words, you wouldn't want to take your body fat below 14.4%. If you do, then you better pack more food, etc. etc. But don't take this to an extreme. If you are carrying more than 20% of body fat, this little theory goes sort of goes to pot: lose the weight.

You can use cheap calipers, a buddy to help, the 7-point Jackson-Pollack method, and a bathroom scale to monitor all this.

It's way, way simpler that fooling around with a personal trainer and an expensive gym membership, and in my experience, a whole lot more effective. If it's simple, and you can see the results, you'll believe it, and you'll stick to it.

Plus, it's really easy to maintain, and you'll be fit for the rest of your life because it's that simple.

This allows me to work at a desk all week and then go rip it up with 30 mile days on the weekend, and I sure ain't no Andy Skurka...! After a holiday binge, I returned to the above and since 12/28 have lost 10 lbs and reduced body fat by more than 3%, and I haven't set foot in a gym or done any workout longer than 15 minutes or starved myself or counted calories or do or feel anything else that would indicate that I feel like I'm sacrificing anything.

Caveat: I still eat pizza once a week ;)

This is my first post, although I've lurked for a while, and I think Ryan has provided some very good advice with a focus on the types of foods we're eating. You can eat more as long as that more is better for you. As far as training, I've been doing Crossfit for a while now and it definitely made a difference in my aerobic endurance and strength while hiking. Unfortunately, many local boxes are just taking advantage of the "fitness craze" and charging outrageous prices. My wife and I are lucky enough to live near an very reasonably priced affiliate and have loved every minute of it. We don't pay any more than we would for a normal gym membership and have the added benefit of working with trainers and a class atmosphere.

The types of full body training they do has been really helpful because during the "off-season" (we don't winter camp and live in intermountain west so that's a number of months where we'd be otherwise sedate except for skiing/snowboarding) we're still working on aerobic and strength interval training. That being said, I think one of the bigger things that have helped our overall health has been a more concerted approach at eating better and identifying local vendors that provide things like lean grass-fed meats and free range chicken. I've been surprised how much better I feel and how much more energy we have just cutting out random things like overly processed foods and sugars.

Edited by Treegreen on 01/28/2011 14:37:45 MST.

Ryan, thank you for your post on this subject. I do have a few questions that I'd like clarified (I'm not trying to push "Ockham's Messer", on this just trying to get a handle on it).

>Don't waste a lot of time. High intensity, short duration, frequent. Think 10 minute workouts to the point of collapse, 3-6 times a day<
1. 10 minutes times 3-6 is 1 hour each day.
2. How do you stay "fragrantly neutral" while doing some of these at work? Yes, deodorant helps, but not always 100%.

> Do both until you are ready to puke. It takes less than 10 minutes. Repeat 3-6 times a day<
1. Being ready to puke might not be the best way to start a sales presentation. Of course the sweat rolling down your brow might make them think that you will go to the mat for them.

I agree with all you have said and I know there is a time and place for everything. Most of us just use everyday schedules as an excuse not to do what is needed or required to get into shape.

Great post Ryan, make it a lifestyle and it is not "training". When the days are long and hot I road run to a lake to swim, when it is snowy and cold I XC ski and shovel and all the days in between I trail run with my dog and do a 3x a week calisthenic routine.

"If you are doing a "big trip", target a body fat reserve so that after you do your calorie balance and calculate how much body fat you'll lose on the trip (see here for an example that works well enough), make sure you have 3-5% in reserve. Example: if you're going on a 3 week expedition and you know you are going to lose 15 lbs of body fat to help fuel you in addition to the food you bring, you weigh 160 lbs:

- your 5% body fat reserve = 0.05 * 160 = 8 lbs
- add this to the 15 lbs that you'll burn = 23 lbs
- target body fat % at 160 lbs = 23/160 = 14.4%

In other words, you wouldn't want to take your body fat below 14.4%. If you do, then you better pack more food, etc. etc. But don't take this to an extreme. If you are carrying more than 20% of body fat, this little theory goes sort of goes to pot: lose the weight.

You can use cheap calipers, a buddy to help, the 7-point Jackson-Pollack method, and a bathroom scale to monitor all this."

A huge +1. I know this technique has been discussed before but I, for one, am very glad to see it mentioned again, particularly by someone with RJ's credibility. It is a very important concept to understand for those planning longer trips, and a great way to reduce your pack weight as well on trips of any duration over 3-4 days.

Every weekend that I can not backpack, I try to walk one or two days for 1.5 to 2 hr including about .5 hr of climbing steep stone steps at a nearby campus. I often wear a myog "pack" that carries two 10 lb dumbells. It works well for me.

During the work week, two - five times per week I walk about 40-50 minutes.

I'm really serious about eating good stuff - no junk. I've found that your mind is what keeps you fat or keeps you lean. Read about how your brain tries to retain and regain body weight. That's why most people can't lose lbs and those that do put it back on. It is all in your mind.

Agree with Ryan. SIMPLIFY. Do that and your life will become better.

"Read about how your brain tries to retain and regain body weight."

George,
Got any references? I'd love to learn more about setpoints and how to change them.

Thanks.

It's easy to get to the point of puking in 10 minutes without actually sweating a lot.

*** secret trick ***
When you do your top secret bathroom workout, take off your shirt, do your workout, then clean up with a wet paper towel. This is great fun in public restrooms when some dude walks in seeing you do squats. Just tell him it improves pheromone release or something. He just might join in.

Set point theory is fascinating. I like to rename it "set point dynamic theory".

Mainly because if you eat an unrestricted diet, your set point gets set higher ... and higher ... and higher ...

Good stuff in here. I'm a big fan of the minimum effective dose ideas. It's amazing what 20 minutes done right can achieve. I used to lift weights for hours everyday as a college athlete to get pretty small improvements. Granted, the goals are completely different now, but maintaining or even increasing strength and fitness can be done with minimal time. Also a big fan of the no-gym ideas. All of this is very Tim Ferriss-esque - is that where you're getting some of this?

Ryan - I'd love to see a thoughtful article on backpacking food. I know there have been many in the past, but most backpacking food is totally focused on highly insulinemic foods. Ways to get protein and good fats into a backpacking trip that is reasonable in carry-weight would be awesome. No pasta, no rice, no oatmeal - all the normal staples of the typical backpacking fare - would be fascinating. I still think backpacking food is one of the great untapped areas for packweight reduction and hacking. It's often the heaviest single thing a backpacker carries, yet we discuss it very little. Funny how we'll generate pages of discussion on 4 or 5 gram weight savings on an item and then toss literally pounds of food into the pack at the end with little thought. Makes no sense to me.

Just did a nice long hike and had plenty of time to think about this. Since we're off of the OP question.....

Lean and Mean
Eat less calories than you burn
Do some physical exercise but if you are going to do it push yourself a bit and stick with it.

Everything else from particular workouts, insulinemic stability, electrolytes, caffeine, ribose, glutamine, Glycemic Index, maltodextrin vs simple sugars, whey vs soy.......... are all optimizations. Can they help sure, but for 90% of Americans they have such a long way to go before they have to worry about such issues.

Edited by gg-man on 01/29/2011 16:37:04 MST.

the secret? ... getting off you lazy azz and go doing it

sure there may be things that are more effective than others ... but if you dont enjoy it, its not going to last

id rather do something "less" effective that i enjoy for 2 hours a day than something "more" effective that i get bored of for 30 min a day

I would love to see an extensive article on food. However, food is a very personal issue and most people seem to do OK on stuff that would be a real problem for me.

I have to follow a low GI, sugar free diet day to day (due to hypoglycaemia issues) and have tried to transfer this over to my backpacking food plan. My last trip was the most successful to date in is this regard. Below is a summary.

Breakfast
Porridge half a cup
Ghee (0.5 tablespoon)
soy protein powder 1 scoop
Salt
Cinamon

Food during day
Almond and brazil nut organic butter

Mixture of dried chickpeas and crackers made from stone ground organic Rye, Millet and Buckwheat Flours, cold Pressed Sunflower Oil, Sesame Seed, Linseed, Sea Salt, Pumpkin Seeds.

Jerky

Dinner (Carbs to protein 3:1)
Buckwheat or occasionally noodles made from rice or beans.
Ghee
Salami

A whey Protein powder supper for supper

If these http://www.adventureegg.com/ were available in New Zealand I would consider them for breakfast. A bit heavy but one every few days would be fantastic.

I've really enjoyed and learned from this thread, I whole heartedly agree with making life style choices that lead to health and strength. Personally I don't train, but I am very active, both at work and at home. I don't do much cardio, other than some exersion at work, but now that my bike is fixed, I'll bring it to work and during breaks and lunch I'll explore some of the trails that start at the back of the university. What I try to do daily is to run up some of the hills, instead of walking; running up stairs by twos; stop at the exercise stations on campus and do 4 chin ups ( most I have ever done and have been stuck at) once a day. It's about feeling strong and able and nimble, and about not getting hurt. Being able to backpack and charge up a hill, are only some of the benefits. That being said, I have not attempted any exeptional mileage for extended periods of time.
I would like to address the following statement, though, not to criticize it, but rather to add my thoughts to this:

"1. If you are overweight, lose the weight. This is not training. It's just a prerequisite. Until you lose the weight, forget about training. If you're a man, get your body fat down below 20% (measured w/calipers etc., not BMI). Then you can start training."

This may put off some people who have weight issues. It is also not necessarily the case that being overweight rules one out from training. Maybe it is the word "training" that I may be using in a more general sense. It is definitively easier to exercise and run, even to just move around and jump and climb, when not incumbered by a lot of fat, but it is still possible. I guess I worry that some would take that statement as saying" go lose weight, then come back and we'll have something to talk about". I would say that there are different levels of training and that it would be best for overweight people to look at it as an important part to a healthier and easier life. I am making it sound so convoluted; help me say it better.



edited for spelling

Edited by Kat_P on 01/29/2011 17:04:54 MST.

"It is also not necessarily the case that being overweight rules one out from training."

I agree completely, but might add that people with chronic weight problems need to train their minds the most. It can be easy to say "go out and lose the weight," but some people find it very hard to do, or hard to maintain. That, as others have said, has more to do with the mind than anything else.

There are some decent books on the subject - most of them say the same things and most of what they say is common knowledge/common sense. This causes too many people to dismiss them out of hand. We're all built differently, including our brains. Some people need the reinforcement. They don't need an arrogant attitude directed at them -- that's, shall we say, less than helpful. For those looking for a decent book on the subject, try "The Body Fat Solution" by Tom Venuto. As I said, there are others.

"1. If you are overweight, lose the weight. This is not training. It's just a prerequisite. Until you lose the weight, forget about training. If you're a man, get your body fat down below 20% (measured w/calipers etc., not BMI). Then you can start training."

"I am making it sound so convoluted; help me say it better."

I'll take a stab at it, Kat, by giving a couple exceptions to this statement whom I have personally hiked or climbed with.

1. Back in the 70's, I took 2 trips into the Upper Kern Basin, starting and ending at Road's End in KCNP, with a guy who had a grossly protruding pot belly and short stumpy legs. I can state with absolute certainty that his body fat was well north of 20%, with no need to resort to the calipers. We went in over Forester Pass both times, and exited over Harrison Pass on the first trip and over Thunder Pass/Longley Pass on the second trip. Both are fairly strenuous off trail routes, not to be taken lightly, as anybody here who has done either, or both, can confirm. We were both carrying over 50 pounds in our ignorance. This guy did just fine on both trips. His job as a furniture mover served as his training, and he was as strong as an ox.

2. I climbed, hiked, and backpacked for several years with another guy who reminded me of a well fed bear just before hibernation. His body fat was also well in excess of 20%, to the point where he was self conscious about it in the presence of a generally far leaner peer group. He was a solid 5.9 alpine climber of near legendary endurance and strength, served on SAR, and went on to run 16 ultra marathons,50 milers all, not fast, but he ran 'em nonetheless. Underneath all that flab was a lot of well conditioned muscle and a very strong cardio vascular system. We hiked the Enchantments Traverse 4 times, 2 in May in waist deep snow, and the last time in just under 7 hours from the Snow Creek parking lot, which adds an extra 1000' of elevation gain, the point being that this guy, fat and all, could haul a$$ in the mountains like very few I have ever come across, regardless of their body fat percentage.

Are these guys exceptions? Maybe, but I'd bet they are far from alone. Looks can be deceiving. So, to all you fat guys out there: If the idea of moving in the mountains gets your juices flowing, don't look in the mirror and flop back down on the couch. Get out there and do it. You might surprise yourselves. You've got nothing to lose but your flab. My 2 cents.

Much better, thanks.








edited to comment on post below mine:
Ha Ha Doug

Edited by Kat_P on 01/29/2011 18:19:39 MST.

"Much better, thanks."

Perhaps. But you LOOKED much better than Tom or I saying it! ;-)

"1. If you are overweight, lose the weight. This is not training. It's just a prerequisite. Until you lose the weight, forget about training. If you're a man, get your body fat down below 20% (measured w/calipers etc., not BMI). Then you can start training."

Okay, so let me get this straight.... Someone is a bit overweight, but they want to work on a routine to improve their speed, strength and endurance while at the same time achieving a more ideal body weight? Sounds like training to me!

Research suggests that hormone shifts that follow weight loss play a role in changing the way our brain responds to food.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123894109

"great fun in public restrooms"

At all times and everywhere an evangelist for lighteousness : )

calories burned per mile are about the same (around 90-120) whether walking or running, it's the calories per minute/hour/etc. that go up with changes in pace

5-6 days a week, do at least 2-3 miles of walking. Most anyone can do this.
Change over to running after a bit... What you want is at least 1 hour per day doing heavy work. Walking with a pack, running, lifting weights, anything is good and all have their proponents. Do not do the same thing 2 days in a row.
Start slow. Walk for two weeks while your body adjusts. Add a 20# pack for a couple more weeks. Then start running every other day(without the pack.) Add about 1# par week to the pack, no more. Then start a routine after 4-8 weeks.
Example:
1) Walk with a pack
2) Lift and "Groucho" walk (heavy thigh pressure)
3) Walk with a pack doing balancing routines: Feet close together, walking a road line or curb., etc.
4) Run or jog
5) Lift dumbells for 20 minutes, situps, leg lifts, then "Groucho" walk (heavy thigh pressure) for a half hour.
6) Walk with 20# ankle and 15# wrist weights

Do not spend a lot of money on excess equipment. Mostly, it doesn't work. IFF you live in a city, well, maybe...personally, I find the machines very boring. Climb stairs a lot. 15 stories should be about right...up and down. Then the rest of your routine. There are too many ways to get exercise without machines. Much more interesting. A pack can be loaded with newspapers, magazines, etc for weight. Ankle weights and 10, 20, 30 pound dumbells are far cheaper than any machine and just as effective if used properly.

After about 6 months, you can easily do 2 hours of your choice of exercise routines. Work your body, it really LIKES to be worked...well, maybe after you are done, anyway. Don't cheat, don't slack off. Do it. 5-6 days per week.

Weight Loss = don't eat as much. Don't worry too much about this. It will happen as you work acording to the above schedule. You will find eating less will just happen. Your body knows it will be working, it will kill your apetite to a large degree. Avoid snack foods. Fried foods are calories...nice on a hike, not so nice sitting around an apartment. Avoid going back for seconds. You really do not need them.

Anyway, my two cents...

I have done similar for the past 10 years. It works. FWIW.



Your body will adjust and become more efficient at processing food. Your bowel habits will likely change. You might need extra fiber as you loose weight.

I've been following this thread for a few weeks and haven't wanted to weigh in because it's a topic that involves so much anecdotal evidence and peoples opinions are deeply personal.

But I can't resist...

First, I can't help but laugh a bit when people say "if you want to loose weight just eat less". If you have never been overweight, or had to loose weight YOU HAVE NO reason to make any comment about the subject. I'm naturally "tall and lanky", but for athletic pursuits I've weighed over 245 lbs at 6'3". I've been able to gain 50 lbs in six months and loose 30 lbs in 3 months for the hiking season. Do you do it by just eating less? NO. You cut back on carbs, eat a lot of protein, and bump up your fat intake. Basically you want to give yourself the equivalent "race car fuel" so that you don't go into starvation mode, which lowers your metabolism and leads to muscular atrophy. You want your metabolism flying... Having some muscle helps with this too. Athletes who have to "make weight" know all the tricks for weight loss, and they don't starve themselves.

So, if you're 150-160lbs (male and 5'7 or taller) and have always been that way, just don't give people advice on weight loss. You need to have experience with something to give advice.

Intervals and all that are great, but for someone who has lead a sedentary life they are hard. As Mark Twight has written, they "fine tune" a base of fitness. You need the base first...

Weights: If you don't lift over 50% of you 1 RM, it is useless. Weights are for strength training, but modern gyms (Nautilus and Arthur Jones) and bodybuilding have lead to very silly practices regarding how people "work out". Going to the gym and doing the standard 3x10 reps of curls with light dumbbells is a waste of time. Mark Rippetoe has written extensively about how a novice should train for strength. His books Practical Programming and Starting Strength are standard reading material on the subject. He has a good website, and well known experts (not internet gurus: ex olympians and collegial S&C coaches) in the field of strength and conditioning contribute regularly: startingstrength.com

http://startingstrength.com/articles/novice_effect_rippetoe.pdf
http://startingstrength.com/articles/core_stability_rippetoe.pdf

Keep in mind that people's exercise routines are engrained in their lives and not based on increasing fitness (try defining fitness!). It's a very personal subject. For most, just being active is a what counts. This is a hiking forum - go hike as often as you can, gradually increase the distances, pace and load carried and your body will adapt to the demands that you put on it.

*edited for spelling. I make a lot of typos.

Edited by RobertL on 01/30/2011 08:15:07 MST.

Didn't think anybody on the thread mentioned becoming a powerlifter as evangelized by Rippetoe. When Rippetoe is selling you something, take much of what he says with two grains of salt. Crossfit is the latest hype in exericise. Next year there will be another exercise routine with another cool name.

Improving muscle tone with light weights/bodyweight exercises/biking/hiking is better than becoming a steroid stallion.

Losing weight is about burning more calories than you consume, however you can get there. Motivation is a huge part of it.

Edited by jshann on 01/30/2011 09:37:16 MST.

"If you have never been overweight, or had to loose weight YOU HAVE NO reason to make any comment about the subject."

So by this logic you could only practice criminal law if you are a convict, men can't be gynocologists, astromners can't exist since they haven't actually been to space. Only minorities can talk race relations, antiwar protesters can't protest unless they have actually been to war and on and on. Frankly, that comment is ridiculous.

Now, if you want to say "If you haven't been overweight you don't know how hard it is to lose weight" then you may have a point to debate. But even folks that don't have weight to lose have to work to keep their weight in check. I would love to sit down and eat a box of swiss rolls but I know that it would take me almost two hours of hard exercise to undo the calories. And one day two weeks ago I did sit in my office eat an entire box of swiss rolls and I made up for it over the next few days. (I have vowed top change my evil ways!)

Now as to the subtance of "silly workouts" I believe ANY excersise that pushes folks out of their comfort zone if helpful. Is it as good as workout x,y or z? Who knows but at least they are active and moving in the right direction.

Edited by gg-man on 01/30/2011 09:31:58 MST.

"So by this logic you could only practice criminal law if you are a convict"

Lawyers and Dr's study extensively in their fields, are tested and have to pass board exams etc. The point I was making is an awful lot of people are fly-by-night nutrition and exercise experts. Information is often anecdotal.

"Rippetoe is selling you something, take much of what he says with two grains of salt"

I agree. Take everything with two grains of salt. Rippetoe, P90X and Crossfit all want to make money. However, following a simple linear progression for two months once a year works magic. I never said anything about becoming a powerlifter. Powerlifters are at the extreme end of a spectrum, and long distance runners are at the other. Being able to pick up relatively heavy things and running a half decent 10K is attainable for most people though.

"I believe ANY excersise that pushes folks out of their comfort zone if helpful"

I agree.

"Losing weight is about burning more calories than you consume"

This is not 100% true and I know it's a statement opens up a can of worms. Humans aren't bomb calorimeters. Everything we eat leads to hormonal responses. If you're sedentary and live on a diet of swiss rolls weight gain can occur even if your calorie intake is below theoretical basal levels. Insulin really is magical that way...

It's very hard on people when they are told just to eat less or eat fewer calories when they hardly eat at all. It's an oversimplification that leads to self esteem problems.

Edited by RobertL on 01/30/2011 12:21:04 MST.

"It's very hard on people when they are told just to eat less or eat fewer calories when they hardly eat at all. It's an oversimplification that leads to self esteem problems."

I was just watching "Killer Stress/National Geographic" on PBS

Stress causes hormone changes that is one cause of obesity

Stress is where things are done to you that you have no effect over

For example, if people tell you to just eat less to reduce obesity, but it doesn't work for you

Vicious Cycle

Try to eat less, exercise more, smell the roses, try to not worry about what other people say, start a training program on a limited basis and maybe you can work your way up to something more vigorous

I have never been overweight so I don't know what I'm talking about

>> If you have never been overweight, or had to loose weight YOU HAVE NO reason to make any comment about the subject.

That means I'm an expert. I was sure that I was, and now I'm really sure. I'm 5'11 and 175+/- but in my glutton days would hover around 225. My favorite and best exercise other than eating was bench pressing. All I got out of it was the need to buy bigger shirts. Stupid, yes. Fortunately I saw the light. Not only in a backpacking sense but in a life style change. It's been over six years and I've had no relapse. My mind has definitely changed. IMO your mind is the key to reaching a healthy weight and routinely exercising. You must alter your mind and embrace a new lifestyle. SIMPLIFY. All will start working out for you. Do it!

Unfortunately many people can not lose weight and when they do they regain. It is their mind doing its thing. The problem is there is way too much food everywhere. Much of the food is processed and horrible for people. Look around at any crowd. How many fat people do you see? I do agree that there are fat and fit people. I know some but they are the exception. Most fat people are unfit like I was.


back to pretzel logic...

I stepped up on the platform
The man gave me the news
He said, You must be joking son
Where did you get those shoes?
Where did you get those shoes?

(note: it's by Steely Dan for you young'uns)

I did a few walks with a guy 20 years younger than me ( I am 55)
During the walks he kept talking about his gym programme, martial art training and generally all of the physical exercise he does.
At one point he asked me what I do to be "this fit" (I was constantly ahead of him and a lot less tired at the end of the day) I told him that in fact I do not do any exercises at all, just some walks.
As we spent some time in between walks too it all became too apparent why he needed all that exercise and that was the way and what he eats.
Too many salty/sugary things pass his mouth in between meals and he has the tendency to eat his evening meal late at night and go to bed straight after.
However when I pointed that out that to him he promptly dismissed that , as people in his situation usually do.
Bring back the word gluttony and offer free full body X ray so that we all know that there are no large boned people.
BTW, if you are large and happy with that, that is fine with me, in fact it is none of my business.
Here is a tip : if you like to crave food in the afternoon, start the day by skipping breakfast and have a small lunch.
Franco

"Here is a tip : if you like to crave food in the afternoon, start the day by skipping breakfast and have a small lunch. "

Like:" Breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince and dinner like a pauper"

Yes along those lines but not rigidly so.
When you take the fun (pleasure) out of eating problems will arise.
So often is not exactly what you eat but how.
That is really the secret of the so called "French diet" . There is butter and fatty meat but there are also loads of herbs and spices, a little wine and some good conversation.
Learn the importance of variety, eat the colours




see the difference ?
Not hard is it ?

My direct experience is my wife. She eats a lot less than me during meals (no breakfast at all) but grazes (her term) in the afternoon and evening. Yes, she is fat.
Same for workmates over 30 years. No they cannot be told, they always know better.
Franco
BTW, at the end of a hike I like nothing better than a fat burger and a beer...

Edited by Franco on 01/30/2011 15:36:37 MST.

"fat burger" - but you are allowed only one...

Weight is not necessarily a barometer of physical fitness or strength. People who work all day lifting and carrying loads, often can hike up very steep elevations because their legs are very strong.

It really is about physical conditioning. People who walk, run, or jog several miles per day are going to be in better physical condition than someone who spends their days and nights in a chair and/or sofa.

"Crossfit is the latest hype in exericise. Next year there will be another exercise routine with another cool name."

I don't know about that. The US Army, amongst others, have been using it for the better part of a decade to train functional movements. It isn't a recent fad (ala P90X or whatever the TV is selling these days: see http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/CFJ_USArmy_Study.pdf). But, that's neither here nor there. I've already stated that while I'm a proponent I am also very wary of the membership fees many Crossfit affiliates are charging.

Back to the point, I was really glad to see people talking about the benefits of healthy eating over dieting. Lifestyle changes in eating better foods pay off much longer than cutting calories or following diet plans. Outside of that any type of training or exercise activity will be of benefit to becoming a better or at least more fit backpacker. I don't think it really matters what you do so long as you work at eating right and get some exercise. The goal is to go light, so anything that helps with endurance will help us go light for longer.

Get in line
Do what you're told
Oh we're getting so fat
We've forgotten our toes

Cupolas and Cul de sacs
by Arann Harris and the Green String Farm Band

I've been reading with interest all that has been said here, and thats to those of you who have offered useful bits of information.

An interesting article about childhood obesity:
http://www2.med.umich.edu/prmc/media/newsroom/details.cfm?ID=1913
They are almost denying the effects of genetics in obesity.

I'll also add another vote for a healthy lifestyle to bring up your 'baseline physical condition' rather than having a poor lifestyle, poor 'baseline physical condition' and fighting to artificially raise it with workouts. I think working out or training should be done after a healthy lifestyle is established.

-Will

"The goal is to go light, so anything that helps with endurance will help us go light for longer."

Divorce worked for me. I go lighter and I'm a lot happier doing it.......

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/31/dietary.guildelines (second to last paragraph)

"The new guidelines recognize that obesity is the No. 1 public health nutrition problem in America and actually gives good advice about what to do about it: eat less and eat better," said Marion Nestle, a professor in the Department of Nutrition, Food Studies, and Public Health at New York University. " For the first time, the guidelines make it clear that eating less is a priority."

http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/DietaryGuidelines/2010/PolicyDoc/PressRelease.pdf

http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/DGAs2010-PolicyDocument.htm

Edited by jshann on 01/31/2011 13:32:33 MST.

Doug - excellent point. We tend to focus on eating and exercising. However, our relationships, especially if living with someone else (married or not), can contribute in a beneficial way, but also can be detrimental to our health. Unhappiness will wreak havoc with your lifestyle if left unabated. Happiness on the other hand is what most of us seek and thrive in.

Just to throw the alternative hypothesis in the ring:
http://www.garytaubes.com/blog/
I don't have the time or inclination to debate nutrition on this forum but for those interested...

Recently I read something about treadmill desks, which allow you to walk, usually slowly at 1 mph, while you work at your desk.
You can build your own, or buy a ridiculously expensive one, a link for those who are interested: http://www.treadmill-desk.com/

As I've seen in some of Richard's posts and charts, just making the change from sitting to standing increases MET and probably burns more calories. In addition, if you are preparing for a big hike, spending a lot of time on your feet is important, just to get used to not sitting at a desk all day.

I recently made a make-shift desk high enough that I can use it while standing. I can't comment on the health benefits, but I seem much more inclined to walk away from my work now that I'm already standing.

As an alternative to the short intense workout camp, what about long and slow workouts, just trying to make each minute of your day more physically taxing? For those of us who can't be getting all sweaty doing short workouts between classes.

wear light wrist weights or ankle weights all day, standing instead of sitting. Keep the house cold and get up and do some jumping jacks when you get cold. Put a dictionary in your bag whenever you go somewhere (might come in handy sometime), etc.

From today's (2/1/11) New York Times -


"A 2008 study in the journal Nature found that the number of fat cells in the body is set in childhood and early adolescence and stays constant even after significant weight loss, for both lean and obese people.

“This explains why it’s so difficult to lose weight,” Dr. Aronne said. “When fat cells shrink, levels of a fat-cell hormone, leptin, drop faster than fat mass is reduced. This tricks the brain into thinking you’ve lost more weight than you actually have."

Good info.

Does makes sense. I believe you must literally re-program your mind to successfully lose weight and keep it away.

Your brain is tricking you so you must find a way to trick your brain back.

What I've found to be helpful is becoming aware of what is going on. This helps me when I eat a normal amount of food and then minutes later feel hungry. That's the Trickster Brain. What I do is start thinking to myself that I enjoy feeling hungry and that I feel hungry because I have not over-eaten. The hungry feeling fades quickly. The Trickster failed yet again. Sounds crazy but it has worked for me for years now.

Become aware of what is going on inside your head. Then you'll at least have a fighting chance. Get rid of those extra pounds and keep 'em away. When I was overweight I would feel sick when I got hungry - like I was going to die if I could not drag myself to a cookie. Get-t-i-n-g w-e-ak, h-e-l-p. AHHH saved by a eating a whole bag of chips!!!

This is very much what one has to go through when switching to a vegan diet.
It's very hard to convince yourself you're full when coming from a background high in animals fats, dairy, and animal protein. In the beginning, regardless of the size of the vegan meal, one seems to always still feel hungry. In my experience this is primarily psychological and one has to reset ones psychological baseline for what it feels like to be "full". The absence of the feeling of a slow digesting brick of fats/meat/greasy food in your stomach is often interpreted as being hungry...when actually, it's quite normal. This takes a lot of mental adjustment.

This is a personal issue concerning carbs (namely breads)...I have a hard time feeling satiated without them.

The concept of hunger is fascinating. It seems that many people no longer know what it truly is, mistaking cravings and impulsive behavior for biologic necessity to eat.

Hunger is indeed funny. I typically fast 18 hours a day between eating periods of high-fat-and-protein meals with some green veggies (with more fat, butter. Gotta get that A+K). When I stick with that basic eating template, the hunger I feel in the fasted state is not at all unpleasant. It's invigorating; I get more work done and my workouts are more intense. If I eat something carby, whether it's simple sugars or starches, the following fasting period is a lot less fun. Headaches, low energy, etc. Likely what happens is I'm stuck in the transition from glucose metabolism (promoted by carb intake and insulin regulated) to ketogenic metabolism, in the phase where there's little glucose circulating but still enough insulin going around to make those fat calories harder to access.

I used to be a voracious carb-addict. I've never had any problems with weight (probably never had more than 10% bodyfat) so tweaking my diet to get to where I am was entirely a matter of pursuing what makes me feel best. An interesting side effect of dropping the carbs is that I've become able to consistently GAIN weight for the first time; I've managed to add a good 15 pounds of lean mass onto the weight I was stuck at for years.

Now I realize low-carb diets tend to get a lot of flak (at least this isn't whiteblaze) so I may be sticking my neck out here. But I do think it's worth pointing out that conventional ideas of "healthy eating" really don't have a lot behind them (kudos to whoever linked to Taubes). I'm not interested in telling anyone what to eat aside from encouraging anyone and everyone to eat what makes them feel best; even if I didn't believe that how I eat is the healthiest in the long run, it's what makes me feel best while I'm here, and that's what I think gets left out of a lot of dietary discussion.

So what I'm getting at is: experiment. Don't take the conventional wisdom for granted. Find what feels best for YOU, as an individual, within your own needs of physical health, eating enjoyment, and ethical beliefs. After all, life should be about quality, not quantity.

I not 100% vegan but I believe I'm heading in that direction. Glad you brought up the fullness after eating animal fats, dairy, protein. I no longer drink milk. When to skim and then Silk and am trying Almond 'milk'. Some chicken and some fish, but very rarely beef or pork. I've rewired my brain to accepted that I could become a vegan and be happy and feel I'm not suffering or missing out on anything.

I ate breakfast at 6am and due to work did not eat until I got home around 6:30pm. I had a Mojo (peanut butter pretzel) in my bag and almost ate it around 3pm. Was feeling pretty hungry. Then got busy and forgot about it. This to me is a vivid example of the brain doing its feed me thing. The Mojo is still in my bag and I am alive. : )

Here's a good hard one for the time-strapped. I started it 6 months ago on recommendation from a student that just signed his SEAL contract; it's part of the recommended workouts for preparing for initial PT testing that he's been doing. The good thing about it is it's based on maxing-out reps...so max-out at whatever you can.
I wake up 35 minutes early to do this. I lay out my workout clothes the night before to save time. Pack a lunch the night before, have the coffee on a timer, lay out work clothes the night before. It's an easy routine to get into with practice/discipline. Nothing's needed but a few dumbells and a pullup bar.

I wake up at 5:00am to do this. Without working out, I'd be waking up at 5:30. I've learned that the extra 30 minutes of sleep does nothing for me, leaving me just as tired (if not more). Even though I'm working out and getting up 30 minutes earlier to do it, I end up feeling better anyway. Learn to trust that you wn't regret waking early to work out.

I think any home workout over 20-30 minutes will be too hard to stick to. That's why I like Ryan's advice of keeping it short/simple.

This workout packs a real bang for 20 minutes...do everything until failure and use light weights:

1) Bench press or pushups - max in 1:00 (I do pushups and alternate wide/standard/diamond every 10 reps).
2) Squats - max in 1:00
3) Pullups or pulldowns - 1:00 (do these assisted if necessary- foot on a chair. I alternate standard, wide, and close-grip every 10 reps)
4) Bike or jog - 3:00 (I run out of my garage, down the street for 1:30, turn around)
5) Military press - 1:00 (or dumbell shoulder press)
6) Lunges - 1:00 each leg
7) Bicep curls - 1:00
8) Bike or jog - 3:00
9) Tricep extensions.- 1:00 (done lying down)
10) Leg ext - 1:00 (requires leg machines - or repeat squats with weights...I do squats)
11) Leg curls - 1:00 (requires leg machines - or repeat lunges with weights...I do lunges)
12) Situps - 2:00
13) Crunches - 2:00
14) Stretch/cool down.

My afternoons/evenings are still free for trail running.

That looks like a pretty darn good workout. One thing you might consider changing, which I found quickly took my pressing strength to a new level, would be to replace the bench-press/pushups with a planche progression, maybe just every other day. There are a lot of different progression methods (most of them involve just holding a position for a length of time) but I wanted to incorporate more of a pressing movement. I started out doing single sets of two pushups from the tucked planche position and have currently worked up to two sets of 5 from the extended tuck planche and can press up from a tuck planche to a handstand and hold it, which I'm pretty thrilled with. Next week I'm trying out the straddle planche position.

My particular enthusiasm for the planche progression comes in part due to my lack of access to a bench-press rack (or whatever it's called). It also forces a lot of core integration, which is of course useful for backpacking.

You can see the positions here, along with a whole lot of additional stuff.
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/
The author's approach is rather strict, to a degree I don't feel is really necessary for simply building strength and body integration. It would matter more for a competitive gymnast, I suppose. YMMV.

"As an alternative to the short intense workout camp, what about long and slow workouts, just trying to make each minute of your day more physically taxing? For those of us who can't be getting all sweaty doing short workouts between classes. "


I used to frame houses and joked with guys that I would turn a framing company into a personal fitness program and have people pay me to work. 8-10 hours a day of near constant motion, varying and sporadic exertion levels, repetitious heavy lifting, walking steep inclined roofs, balancing on narrow trusses/walls all while wearing 25+ lbs in a tool pouch and carrying loads. Nothing before or since has had me as cut and lean and conditioned as that did. I'm a firm believer in the drawn out strenuous work out. I have never gone on a 20 minute or 1 hour high intensity hike. Day long, taxing, full body work outs are absolutely best suited to hiking.

I'm not trying to discredit high intensity or explosive work outs. I do a daily jump rope/chin up/sit up/push up routine to get me going in the morning, it barely lasts more than 10 minutes but its supplementary to reduced physical exertion at work. If nothing prepares you for hiking like hiking, then to me the next best thing is grinding it out all day on your feet. Easier for some than others.

heres a simple question ...

how many calories can you burn off in 10-20 min ... not too many i suspect

Wow I cant believe someone mentioned Dragondoor on this site!
I recommend jump rope. Tried and true. Champions from Ali to the present still use it. trends come and go but the rope remains. 15-20 min anywhere, no runners mag subscriptions no fancy shoes no trophy no muscle loss just sweat it out.

Not many at all. If someone wants to burn more calories, realistically, it's better to alter lifestyle and diet to raise their basal metabolism. Burning an extra 30 calories an hour for 24 hours burns more calories than you're likely to ever burn in 20 minutes. Exercise is more useful to strengthen the body (including in terms of endurance) and to help raise it to a higher metabolic state.

yeah ... thats why i dont feel 10-20 min is a substitute for real exercise

sure a high intensity for that time will maintain some strength ... but for me thats really the time it takes to warm up, which as i become older is quite important

dont get me wrong, intensity matters ... but for me it only helps in addition to other stuff and over a longer period ...

there are ways you can add just a bit everyday ... take the stairs at work, park at the edge of the parking lot, arm curl at the office (depending on yr job), do push ups, squats or situps when the commercials come on, etc ...

at the end of the day though, youll need to condition yr legs ... ed vist used to go on the stair master with a large pack to get ready for ascents

It doesn't matter how you rationalize the calories burnt in a workout. Yes, if you walk all day long, in the winter, you will need a ton of fuel. Most of us don't have time for that. But, what's an hour run 3x a week? 3000 calories? Realistically that's a drop in the bucket. Who is prepared to run 5-6 times a week? Some people are, and some people aren't. There's also a hypothesis that doing very slow distance on a calorie deprivation diet turns on the "starvation mode" response, and loosing weight becomes almost impossible. And yes, competitive endurance athletes are slim... there are so many contradictions to deal with.

For those of us who don't have the time, short, high intensity and intervals work to round out your fitness base and definitely makes you shed extra weight. There's no way to get around it. It raises your metabolism and keeps you ready for something that is "all out". Now, if someone said "all you have to do is these three 10 minute workouts a week", that wouldn't be very sensible. The trick is variety.

Think about this - Have you ever been in a stage of your life where all you do is long runs, and then try to play a game of basketball or something like that? It WRECKS you. And how was you jump or explosiveness? Not that great.. How about if all you do is short intense exercise? That same basketball game also wrecks you because you're not used to to going for an hour. The lateral movement, stop and go is also hard on you regardless of whether you do intervals or distance.

I find incorporating different types of exercise at different times of the year works well, keeps things interesting and prepares me for almost anything. In the winter snow and ice, short days and weird work schedule makes running a pain. So, I'll do strength workouts 2-3x a week (one might be explosive work like broad jumps, vertical jumps or lateral movement drills), plus a few short intense bodyweight conditioning workouts, and climb indoors 2x a week (good social time also). How about a game of squash or basketball? Why not, they're fun and don't feel like "training" at all. When the spring rolls around, I'm sick of being indoors and it feels great to pick up trail running again, 2 or 3x a week. Add in a speed workout at the local track or some hill sprints once a week, and go hiking whenever I can, ramping up the number of miles I get under my feet.

When someone asks me how to loose weight, I normally just tell them to pick a few very different performance goals. Once they reach them they are normally pleased with how their body has changed to adapt to the new stresses. It helps if the goals are very different. For example - for women, setting a goal of running a sub 25 minute 5K, sub 1:25 400 m, doing a pull up and deadlifting 1.25X bodyweight is attainable - and produces results. The targets need to feel attainable but not easy, and you set short and intermediate targets to help stay motivated. It's not diet focused either. Obviously you adjust the targets based on the individual. If the person feels like they are not making good progress, it's an easy way to introduce questions about other aspects of their lifestyle, like diet and sleep quality - without being intrusive.

"high intensity for that time will maintain some strength"

Actually, interval training for 20 minutes at high intensity has shown to produce the same results in endurance as 2 hours of moderate exercise. This is because training for strength increases endurance in the muscle - but will not work in reverse. Long, drawn out workouts are not needed. How you 'feel' is less relevant than the actual results provided.

david ...

im not quite sure how 20 min of exercise without anything more will get you ready for that 2000m scramble ... or that week long jaunt in the hills ...

sure any fitness is better than none ... but will it get you ready for that 2000m+ of elevation gain with a 30 lb pack in a day ... or teach you better balance when scrambling, hiking, etc ... or condition your feet and legs

there's a saying in climbing that if you want to get better in climbing, climb more ... sure at a certain point cross training can help ... but for most people they should just climb

ive done some fairly intensive stuff ... MMA, boxing, etc, stuff thats torn the knees, dislocated shoulders and needed surgery on the retinas ... and other than general fitness, it doesnt help to much when climbing or scrambling ... for that specific skillset id be better off doing something more directly related

i think most people here overthink it ...

first ... just go out and do it ...

second ... make sure you enjoy it or you wont keep on doing it

third ... make sure it effectively relates to what you want to do

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/07/2011 11:49:15 MST.

+1 "How you 'feel' is less relevant than the actual results provided."

One of the best tidbits on training that I've ever read was by Joe Defranco. Keep in mind that he mostly works with football players. At the start of a training program they take some simple metrics: broad jump, vertical jump, 40 yd sprint etc - all bodyweight stuff. If at the end of the program one or more of these have gone down or something hasn't improved, the program was not effective. For example, if they focus too much on hypertrophy the athlete will get slower and less explosive. What was the point? Perhaps bigger and stronger, but less athletic. Again, that's for football, where a good 10K or huge bench press doesn't matter as much as the combination of good 40 yd sprint, strength and explosiveness. The concept carries over between sports and you just have to pick a few metrics that relate well to the type of fitness that is required for your activity.

Mark Twight discusses in detail the relationship between bodyweight and his ability to gain vertical ft/hr while being able to do a certain number pull ups etc. Obviously that's a little bit more relevant for hiking. The key is the test. What does it mean if you have a local hike that normally takes you 3 hours to complete, and after after doing a 20 minute weight circuit 3x a week over the winter the same hike takes longer come the spring? Did the hike make you sore the next day? Was it really good exercise program? "Feeling the burn" during leg curls in a circuit doesn't really mean anything.

When you talk to competitive athletes, most have a few "tests" that tell them if they're on their game or not. It could be some kind of run, some kind of weird workout, a basic strength test, or normally the combination of several tasks.

Ya know - it does.

I started squatting again with weight to help with scrambling. The results have been mind bending. 405lbs for 5's at a body weight of 210 (I am 43 years old). This workout takes 9 minutes to do and I do it 2-3 times per week. My legs burn far less scrambling now; I am able to dispose of lactic acid more quickly. There is clearly some gains to be had with specificity of training - like walking, walking, and more walking when training for backpacking, but without general strength training, one is missing out on very real benefits that can be achieved with abbreviated workouts.

A couple of years ago when getting prepared for the West Coast Trail Yo Yo and all of the ladders one encounters, I did 20 minutes of 30 second intervals on a stationary bike. I got the nickname 'The Goat' from my hiking buddies because of the way I moved up and down the ladders. Could I have gotten a similar response from 2 hour cardio workouts? Maybe, although I would have been missing the strength component.

Have a look at Starting Strength by Rippetoe.

Eric - Re: "im not quite sure how 20 min of exercise without anything more will get you ready for that 2000m scramble ... or that week long jaunt in the hills "

Done right, those short hard workouts can really help with steep climbs. Of course, long pre trip "depletion" days are pretty key also. I agree that the best thing to get in shape for a week long climbing trip is a week long trip. But how do you get ready for a week long trip when you live in flat, sea level Ontario, and you can't take a week off before your week off?

If you live close enough to the mountains and have the time to stay in mountain shape, I'm jealous! But not everyone is that lucky.

david ...

i used to do quite a bit of weightlifting including squats ... it helped for general fitness ... including the squats they make you do with a heavy bag or partner on yr shoulder

ive since stopped, especially after knee surgery ... i find that climbing or scrambling moderate grades are basically a series of one legged squats anyways .... the difference is that it also helps with your balance

funny thing is that after not weightlifting for quite a while ... i went back and was able to lift within 10% of what i used to ... not to mention that climbing is much more fun than weights ... and did i mention the benefit of belaying hawt chicks in yoga pants ;)

kane ...

simple ... move to vancouver ;)

i live about 15 min away from a 1000m peak ... and have probably 5+ easily accessible 1200m+ peaks within an hour or so

or hit the climbing gym up ...

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/07/2011 12:41:59 MST.

"and did i mention the benefit of belaying hawt chicks in yoga pants ;)"

No but I would like to see some pics.....

Eric,

"funny thing is that after not weightlifting for quite a while ... I went back and was able to lift within 10% of what I used to ..."

"I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once, as I ever was."

By Toby Kieth

;-)

Party On,

Newton

David - 405 x 5 is SOLID. 2x bodyweight... plus interval training . I'm sure you're tough to keep up with.

Eric- Your observation about staying within about 10% of your previous standard is inline with my experience. I didn't lift for about 5 years, replacing it with climbing. My squat did drop quite a bit, but it went back up pretty quick. However, since I've started to deadlift fairly seriously in the last two years it's really helped my climbing. I'm 6'3 and 205lbs - so core strength is definitely key on the steep stuff. My DL is now just around 400 lbs and I'm a fraction off of holding a solid front lever, something that seemed unattainable in the past.

Eric - I'm working on it. Either Vancouver or Calgary in the next year. Climbing gyms get old in a hurry...

"No but I would like to see some pics....."

time for you to give up 9 min of squats for hours of climbing ;)

kane ... do both ... fly into calgary ... climb in canmore, lake louise, squamish and everything you can in between (bugs, skaha, yak peak, sir donald) ... fly out from vancouver ... you wont regret it ... youll start off on limestone, go onto quartzite and gneiss, and end up on beautiful squamish granite ... 2-3 weeks should be good enough .. bring a full rack

youll also start off eating alberta beefsteak and finish up with sushi ...

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/07/2011 13:05:47 MST.

My 15 year old daughter reads BPL. She'll definitively learn something here.




Edited to change title of my post.

Edited by Kat_P on 02/07/2011 13:10:05 MST.

Eric - I've been many times. I did my first "big" hiking trip in Alberta in 2001, and did basically what you just said but by car in 2004. Drove through Canmore, climbed a bit there. Moved on to Squamish, climbed for four months, drove back though the US - Utah, Colorado. Climbed a bit in Riffle. I was in Canmore again this year for two weeks of hiking. Mostly day scrambles though. Our only overnight was on the Skyline Trail.

I was talking about moving there - I'm done grad school in Ontario this spring. Time to move on to somewhere more interesting.

Kane - Calgary is ideal. I was there for 16 years. Now I am in Edmonton, which is not as ideal ;)

Lots of mountains here so hurry up.

"405lbs for 5's at a body weight of 210 (I am 43 years old)"

Awesome, David! Without trying to be a naysayer, one observation: As you get older, maintaining joint health becomes increasingly difficult. Cartilege starts to show wear and tear, tendons grow less flexible, menisci develop small tears. One needs to exercise caution when weight lifting not to up the ante too far. The muscles can get your soft tissues in trouble, and once you start down that road it is enormously difficult, if not impossible, to reverse the damage. Same goes for ballistic motions like jumping, cutting sharply, etc. It's hard, as I well know, but when you get into your 40's it is wise to start incorporating the idea of "good enough to get the job done" into your training and let it go at that. FWIW.

Tom - "good enough to get the job done" is a wise recommendation. I think that as we have more and more access to information about high end athletes, we tend to try and emulate their training. We definitely don't need to be putting in the hours or effort of a competitive triathlete just to be able to have a good time hiking on the weekends.

There is a flip side though. If you put a stress on your body from a young age it grows accustom to that stress. When I was 19 one of my college teachers was the canadian national master's hammer throw champion (Dr. Emil Muller) and a former coach of the Czechoslovakian Olympic weight-lifting team. I watched him squat 465 on his 65th birthday - that was a lifetime PB. He had been training heavy without any problems since he'd been a teenager. I'd bet that he's still training pretty hard... You can see what he threw last year at age 75:
http://canadianmasters.ca/wp-content/uploads/CAN-Records-Throws-Dec-2010.pdf

I don't know if there are any stats on this, but an awful lot of my parents acquaintances who've had knee replacement surgeries in their 50s were runners. I also know several people who've had stress fractures in their feet from excessive running (young and not so young). You get thousands of impacts every time you go for a run. That vs moving a joint through it's natural range of motion a couple of times a week when lifting seems almost more risky. I guess that I'm doomed because I do them both :P

" don't know if there are any stats on this, but an awful lot of my parents acquaintances who've had knee replacement surgeries in their 50s were runners. I also know several people who've had stress fractures in their feet from excessive running (young and not so young). You get thousands of impacts every time you go for a run. That vs moving a joint through it's natural range of motion a couple of times a week when lifting seems almost more risky. I guess that I'm doomed because I do them both :P"

Yup. I guess everyone names their poison. I would say, however, that for every Emil Muller, there are thousands who will go down hard if they try to emulate him or any other world class athlete. Some are genetically gifted, most are not so fortunate.

That said, I've been philosophical about it ever since a buddy once told me not to worry about it because nobody gets out of here alive anyway. ;-]

Good points Tom. I have been training off and on since my teens and have definitely noticed an increasing non-elasticity to the joints as I get older. The biggest issue has been recovery. I am still having difficulty in identifying the ideal train / recovery cycle, both in the short term (i.e. weekly) and the longer-term (i.e. 3 month cycles).

Oh, and I am on a strength cycle and am NOT combining this with interval cardio workouts. That would probably kill me.

David - Seems like you plans things out pretty well. Have you ever experimented with sled dragging or pushing a prowler? Apparently they work wonders for conditioning & recovery but I don't have any first hand experience...

"and have definitely noticed an increasing non-elasticity to the joints as I get older. The biggest issue has been recovery. I am still having difficulty in identifying the ideal train / recovery cycle, both in the short term (i.e. weekly) and the longer-term (i.e. 3 month cycles)."

I've been in the process of learning that the hard way the past 2 years, David. I'm reluctantly coming to the conclusion that, in my case at least, it is better to error on the side of caution and hope that the result is still "good enough to get the job done". I'll know by the end of this season.

"Oh, and I am on a strength cycle and am NOT combining this with interval cardio workouts. That would probably kill me."

I've got a friend, a genetically gifted 57 year old woman, who has been combining strength and cardio, both interval and endurance, for the past 3 years in preparation for high altitude climbs. She has finally reached a level where she is starting to get into trouble. We have been having a running, sometimes heated, conversation for several months now about whether it is time to start thinking about "good enough to get the job done". It is extremely difficult mentally to back off when you have a gift and are highly motivated to exploit it to the max in pursuit of lofty goals; it has led to a lot of broken dreams down through the years.
It sounds to me like you have got that figured out and are exercising restraint. I commend you. The yin of restraint does not often tame the yang of desire.

Exercise Restraints? Where can I get some?

"Exercise Restraints? Where can I get some?"

There are several shops down on Broadway that sell restraints. I don't know if exercise is what they're designed for but hey, Dan, you're good at modifying gear.... ;=)

Swimming and calisthenics! I rarely ever use weights, I use my body weight for resistance (push ups, pull ups, lunges, etc).

I downloaded in PDF format the U.S. Army physical fitness manual, INCREDIBLE stuff in there, all with descriptions and photos, and its free, google it.

www.hooah4health.com/4You/FM2021-20.pdf